Paris & Berlin Start New Year W/ New Smoking Ban

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
FSTargetDrone
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7878
Joined: 2004-04-10 06:10pm
Location: Drone HQ, Pennsylvania, USA

Paris & Berlin Start New Year W/ New Smoking Ban

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Good for them:
Last Updated: Tuesday, 1 January 2008, 10:10 GMT

Paris and Berlin ban cafe smoking

Smoking has been banned in bars in the capitals of France and Germany but the laws will not be enforced immediately.

Eight German states, including Berlin, have ushered in 2008 declaring their pubs and restaurants smoke-free.

Almost a third of Germans smoke and the authorities in Berlin have decided not to enforce the restrictions actively for the first six months.

In France, a law forbidding smoking in public places has now been extended to bars, cafes and hotels.

Grace period

Paris reporter Hugh Schofield says attitudes to smoking have changed dramatically in France in the past year and any fears that people will generally ignore the new law can be discarded.

The French health ministry allowed smokers a 24-hour "grace" period for the New Year festivities in a gesture of "tolerance".

Any smoker caught flouting the ban thereafter can be fined up to 450 euros (£332; $662), while those who turn a blind eye to smokers on their premises can be fined up to 750 euros.

SMOKING IN EUROPE
Greece has the highest proportion of adult smokers in Europe - 45%
Ireland was the first European country to implement a comprehensive ban on smoking in public places in March 2004
Norway followed soon after, but allowed a smokers' corner in workplaces
Italy banned workplace smoking in January 2005 and Naples and Verona have made smoking illegal in public parks
Belgium allows smoking in cafes and bars if they have ventilation installed and are at least 50sq m (538sq ft) in area


France has about 13.5 million smokers among its population of 60.7 million.

Restrictions on smoking also came into force in Portugal on Tuesday, but the rules were not as tight as in France or Germany.

Portuguese bars smaller than 100sq m (1,076sq ft) can still opt to allow smoking. Public buildings can still have smoking zones, provided they are clearly signposted and ventilated.

German restaurants and pubs have strongly resisted the bans, not only because of the potential loss of income but partly because of an earlier crackdown on smoking initiated by Adolf Hitler's Nazi regime.

The sensitivity of the issue has prompted the authorities to allow special rooms to be set up purely for smokers.

In Lower Saxony where a ban is already in place, chef Michael Windisch came up with the idea of a "smoking point", which he hopes will allow smokers to enjoy a puff without leaving the premises.

The toughest rules in Germany are being brought in in Bavaria, where no smoking rooms will be allowed.

Lighting up is also likely to be banned at the state's Munich beer festival in October.

Cultural shift

The new ban is seen as a big cultural shift for France, where smoky cafes have long been the haunts of famous artists and philosophers.

The ban does not include pavement tables or open-air terraces.

Similar bans are already in place in Britain, Ireland, Italy and Spain.

In 2004, Ireland became the first European country to introduce a comprehensive smoking ban in all workplaces, including pubs and restaurants.

Smoking was made illegal in bars and cafes in Lithuania in 2007.

The law has now been extended to include other public places.
Note:
German restaurants and pubs have strongly resisted the bans, not only because of the potential loss of income but partly because of an earlier crackdown on smoking initiated by Adolf Hitler's Nazi regime.
:roll:

Anyway, this is good news. Though not mentioned in this specific story, I saw another (that I can't find just now) that had some bar owner complaining that smoking bans will drive away smoking customers, causing business to suffer. I wonder about this claim, because who is to say that more people who do not smoke might be more inclined to show up now that the smokers have gone (and increase business as a whole)?

For example, after the smoking ban in New York took effect:
Data from the city's Department of Finance shows that the money spent in New York bars and restaurants has increased, the report states: from April 2003 to January, the city collected about $17.3 million in tax payments from bars and restaurants, a rise of about $1.4 million over the same period a year earlier.

The payments were for the general corporation tax and the unincorporated business tax, and are usually collected quarterly from restaurants and bars. The rates have not changed since before April 2003.

An average of 164,000 people were employed in restaurants and bars in 2003, the highest number in at least a decade. Since the smoking ban took effect last March 30, employment in bars and restaurants has risen by 10,600 jobs, taking into account seasonal fluctuations, according to the report.
Image
User avatar
SCRawl
Has a bad feeling about this.
Posts: 4191
Joined: 2002-12-24 03:11pm
Location: Burlington, Canada

Re: Paris & Berlin Start New Year W/ New Smoking Ban

Post by SCRawl »

FSTargetDrone wrote:Anyway, this is good news. Though not mentioned in this specific story, I saw another (that I can't find just now) that had some bar owner complaining that smoking bans will drive away smoking customers, causing business to suffer. I wonder about this claim, because who is to say that more people who do not smoke might be more inclined to show up now that the smokers have gone (and increase business as a whole)?
They always make the same bullshit cries when smoking bans come up for debate. I suppose that individual establishments might go under, depending on the nature of their clientele, but on the whole the industry won't suffer.
73% of all statistics are made up, including this one.

I'm waiting as fast as I can.
User avatar
FSTargetDrone
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7878
Joined: 2004-04-10 06:10pm
Location: Drone HQ, Pennsylvania, USA

Post by FSTargetDrone »

What I don't get is that Berlin has decided it needs to give all these smokers a 6-month grace period. What difference doe sit make if 1/3 or 1/2 the population smokes? If this is being done ostensibly in the name of health, why wait? If they required this 6-month nonsense, they should have posted some signs, run some commercials and mailed some information starting 6 months ago informing the populace that the ban goes into effect on 1 January.
Image
User avatar
Zablorg
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1864
Joined: 2007-09-27 05:16am

Post by Zablorg »

A long time ago I heard the most bullshit argument for smoking in France in the newspaper; that the guy who wrote Les Misrables would not have been able to do it without his cigarette.

Yes, they actually said that. It's a part of french culture to smoke, apparently.
Jupiter Oak Evolution!
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Zablorg wrote:A long time ago I heard the most bullshit argument for smoking in France in the newspaper; that the guy who wrote Les Misrables would not have been able to do it without his cigarette.

Yes, they actually said that. It's a part of french culture to smoke, apparently.
There'd be no Uncle Tom's Cabin without slavery, no War and Peace without Napoleon's destructive wars...its such an imbecilic argument.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
The Grim Squeaker
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10319
Joined: 2005-06-01 01:44am
Location: A different time-space Continuum
Contact:

Re: Paris & Berlin Start New Year W/ New Smoking Ban

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

FSTargetDrone wrote:
:roll:

Anyway, this is good news. Though not mentioned in this specific story, I saw another (that I can't find just now) that had some bar owner complaining that smoking bans will drive away smoking customers, causing business to suffer. I wonder about this claim, because who is to say that more people who do not smoke might be more inclined to show up now that the smokers have gone (and increase business as a whole)?

For example, after the smoking ban in New York took effect:
Data from the city's Department of Finance shows that the money spent in New York bars and restaurants has increased, the report states: from April 2003 to January, the city collected about $17.3 million in tax payments from bars and restaurants, a rise of about $1.4 million over the same period a year earlier.

The payments were for the general corporation tax and the unincorporated business tax, and are usually collected quarterly from restaurants and bars. The rates have not changed since before April 2003.

An average of 164,000 people were employed in restaurants and bars in 2003, the highest number in at least a decade. Since the smoking ban took effect last March 30, employment in bars and restaurants has risen by 10,600 jobs, taking into account seasonal fluctuations, according to the report.
An almost identical law was passed here in Israel, and started being enforced a few months ago.
Apparently, revenue in the clubs and pubs here have plummeted (By over 17%), but still, pubs/clubs here are more in the England vein of lots of dancing as opposed to effete French restaurants of rawdy German pubs. Then again, what the fuck do I know about German/French pubs. :lol: .
Oh, and I heartily support this ban, et cetera, et cetera :wink:
Photography
Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
weemadando
SMAKIBBFB
Posts: 19195
Joined: 2002-07-28 12:30pm
Contact:

Post by weemadando »

Again, I'll bring up what happened in Tasmania, and then other states in Australia where this has happened.

More people start going out. A small percentage of the population who smokes apparently had been keeping a larger percentage of the population away, simply because, as it turns out - people don't like having to put up with cigarette smoke.

Aside from a few "local" dives in rural and mining towns, overall patronage increased and overall income increased to boot.
User avatar
Alferd Packer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3706
Joined: 2002-07-19 09:22pm
Location: Slumgullion Pass
Contact:

Post by Alferd Packer »

Yeah, I would wager that the type of bar dictates how well it does after a smoking ban. If the place is a shitheap to begin with, then odds are probably good that the only people interested in going there are smokers...and they can get drunk at home and continue to smoke.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation." -Herbert Spencer

"Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." - Schiller, Die Jungfrau von Orleans, III vi.
User avatar
Spin Echo
Jedi Master
Posts: 1490
Joined: 2006-05-16 05:00am
Location: Land of the Midnight Sun

Post by Spin Echo »

weemadando wrote:Again, I'll bring up what happened in Tasmania, and then other states in Australia where this has happened.

More people start going out. A small percentage of the population who smokes apparently had been keeping a larger percentage of the population away, simply because, as it turns out - people don't like having to put up with cigarette smoke.

Aside from a few "local" dives in rural and mining towns, overall patronage increased and overall income increased to boot.
I can't remember the exact figures for Norway and New Zealand, but either there was no change or a slight up turn for business. They certainly weren't hurt in any case.
Doom dOom doOM DOom doomity DooM doom Dooooom Doom DOOM!
User avatar
Siege
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4108
Joined: 2004-12-11 12:35pm

Post by Siege »

I can barely wait until the smoking ban goes into effect here (The Netherlands) as well, come this summer. Hanging out at bars is great, but if there's anything I detest it's that afterwards my clothes stink like I've been wandering around the seventh circle of hell. And I loathe the fact that the government caved in to whining restaurant owners and their "oh noes we cannot be prepared for this ban in six months! We need more time!" As if it's that goddamned hard to put up a no smoking sign and tell your clients to go smoke outside. It's almost as bad as the smokers who feel they are somehow being repressed because they're no longer allowed to pollute other people's lungs with their filth. Get your dirty out of my face!
Image
SDN World 2: The North Frequesuan Trust
SDN World 3: The Sultanate of Egypt
SDN World 4: The United Solarian Sovereignty
SDN World 5: San Dorado
There'll be a bodycount, we're gonna watch it rise
The folks at CNN, they won't believe their eyes
User avatar
Stravo
Official SD.Net Teller of Tales
Posts: 12806
Joined: 2002-07-08 12:06pm
Location: NYC

Post by Stravo »

The smoking ban in NYC nightclubs was supposed to end NYC nightlife forever. Bar owners and night club folks were crying bitterly that they were going to have to shutter up and end the nightlife as we know it in NY for good.

Guess what?

Bar and Nightclub attendance hasn't changed and in fact there have been recent debates on changing the zoning rules in the city because there are so many clubs and bars opening up especially in trendy neighborhoods. Neighbors have started complaining about the crowds and noise created by this hyper dense nightclub and bar scene in the city.

I am all for a world wide smoking ban. Who the fuck needs to have the air we breath choked by some dumb ass smoking his lungs into oblivion. I admit a neat little thrill when I see the smokers huddling like cavemen for warmth together outside office buildings in the depth of winter. Your discomfort makes up for all the times I've had to choke on your godamned smoke on the street or at house parties.
Wherever you go, there you are.

Ripped Shirt Monkey - BOTMWriter's Guild Cybertron's Finest Justice League
This updated sig brought to you by JME2
Image
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Post by Broomstick »

The US state of Illinois started the New Year with a complete ban on smoking in public places as well - enforcement to start immediately.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Keevan_Colton
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10355
Joined: 2002-12-30 08:57pm
Location: In the Land of Logic and Reason, two doors down from Lilliput and across the road from Atlantis...
Contact:

Post by Keevan_Colton »

FSTargetDrone wrote:What I don't get is that Berlin has decided it needs to give all these smokers a 6-month grace period. What difference doe sit make if 1/3 or 1/2 the population smokes? If this is being done ostensibly in the name of health, why wait? If they required this 6-month nonsense, they should have posted some signs, run some commercials and mailed some information starting 6 months ago informing the populace that the ban goes into effect on 1 January.
Because it's actually better to aim for it to come in force during the summer. It makes it easier to alter behaviour at the start if you arent trying to get them out in the snow too...and it means that they're less able to play for sympathy etc...

We started the ban here in april partly for that reason.
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
"I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..."
"All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism.
BOTM - EBC - Horseman - G&C - Vampire
User avatar
FSTargetDrone
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7878
Joined: 2004-04-10 06:10pm
Location: Drone HQ, Pennsylvania, USA

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Keevan_Colton wrote:Because it's actually better to aim for it to come in force during the summer. It makes it easier to alter behaviour at the start if you arent trying to get them out in the snow too...and it means that they're less able to play for sympathy etc...

We started the ban here in april partly for that reason.
I don't know, it seems they are trying awfully hard to placate the smokers at the expense of everyone else. Besides:
Broomstick wrote:The US state of Illinois started the New Year with a complete ban on smoking in public places as well - enforcement to start immediately.
And I wonder how people in Illinois responded? I have no doubt there was some grumbling and complaining, and probably even defiance of the rulings. But this shouldn't be about making it easy for the smokers. If we had real sympathy for those who smoke, why do it at all?
Image
User avatar
Sriad
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3028
Joined: 2002-12-02 09:59pm
Location: Colorado

Post by Sriad »

Broomstick wrote:The US state of Illinois started the New Year with a complete ban on smoking in public places as well - enforcement to start immediately.
I hope SO MUCH that "enforcement" means policemen patrolling the streets with super-soakers filled with ice cold water, to drench anyone smoking publicly from fifty feet away...
User avatar
Tribun
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2164
Joined: 2003-05-25 10:02am
Location: Lübeck, Germany
Contact:

Post by Tribun »

I have to add that in Germany that's only the latest measure. It had taken time, because the tabacco industry has a lot of power, but slowly smokers are pushed to the point where they aren't a public danger anymore.

I can't even count in how many places smoking is now forbidden. And there are everywhere signs of a growing culture that looks down on smokers. For example, the German Railways has totally forbidden smoking in all trains, railway stations and areas. Oh, they still have "designated smoker zones" in their stations.... on the railway platforms outside the train hall (stand in the rain)! It's just a yellow square painted on the ground of about 4-6m². I think in some cicles they are called "Raucher-KZ". (Smoker-KZ)

I think the slow way will work out better in the end. A simple fact is, that in the early 1970's, over 80% of the people were smokers. Now the quota has dropped to ~27%. I think that can be seen as a success.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Post by Broomstick »

Sriad wrote:
Broomstick wrote:The US state of Illinois started the New Year with a complete ban on smoking in public places as well - enforcement to start immediately.
I hope SO MUCH that "enforcement" means policemen patrolling the streets with super-soakers filled with ice cold water, to drench anyone smoking publicly from fifty feet away...
Given the -15C temps today, keeping the water cold would be no problem... keeping it liquid, however...
FSTargetDrone wrote:And I wonder how people in Illinois responded?
Well, the bar next to me, given that we're in Indiana and therefore smoking is allowed, might see an uptick in business along with other venues just over the state line. But they've had a ban on smoking restaurants for quite some time now and it doesn't seem to have hurt business at all.

It's been a small problem with restaurants that had a business in hookas, but I expect we'll either see establishments devoted to just smoking and nothing else (I believe Paris has such a provision, where the room is for smoking only, no booze, no food), or else such customs will fade away.

Smokers in the middle of the state... well, they'll either restrict themselves to doing it in their home/car/other private property, or drive many kilometers to a public area, or else do without I guess.

I have no doubt there was some grumbling and complaining, and probably even defiance of the rulings. But this shouldn't be about making it easy for the smokers. If we had real sympathy for those who smoke, why do it at all?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Spyder
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4465
Joined: 2002-09-03 03:23am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by Spyder »

Spin Echo wrote:
weemadando wrote:Again, I'll bring up what happened in Tasmania, and then other states in Australia where this has happened.

More people start going out. A small percentage of the population who smokes apparently had been keeping a larger percentage of the population away, simply because, as it turns out - people don't like having to put up with cigarette smoke.

Aside from a few "local" dives in rural and mining towns, overall patronage increased and overall income increased to boot.
I can't remember the exact figures for Norway and New Zealand, but either there was no change or a slight up turn for business. They certainly weren't hurt in any case.
Slight increase from memory.

Found this.
Seasonally adjusted sales in bars and clubs changed little (0.6% increase) between the first three quarters of 2004 and of 2005, while café and restaurant sales increased by 9.3% in the same period.
The smoking ban will doom us all!
:D
Post Reply