AVP2 rated at 25%

[Darth Wong]

That's just more xeno-wanking: they no longer have to obey any kind of rules of biology.

Considering that they can parasitize creatures from other planets and grow into six-foot behemoths without eating anything, I submit that they never obeyed any rules of biology (or physics) in the first place.

That is more xeno-wanking. When the first alien grew to large size, it was explained that it had probably fed off the foodstores in the ship. Similarly, in Aliens, there was livestock at the colony and therefore plenty of food available for them to eat. It was the first AVP which gave them the supernatural power of growing without eating.

[Battlehymn Republic]

Well, at least AvP 2 has them land in a forest full of furry animals and a nearby town with a quickly dropping population...

IMHO the Predator responce to the scenario that unfolded was praticularly retarded, sending in one hunter to deal with the mess disolving evidence with that blue liquid of his. At least have him go into the town when the shit hits the fan and plant a Pred-nuke, call in re-enforcemtns or something once he realized that the infestation had proceeeded too far.

Zor

The thing I actually liked about this installment was how minimalistic the exposition was. They didn't even have fake green text show up going "Earth- 2007 AD" or "Yautja homeworld." As a result, I really don't know if that response was by all Predators, or just one lone hunter. For all we know, he was the equivalent of the local sheriff responsible for this backwater area where the Solar System is in, or maybe he was just a greedy bounty hunter who decided to get a few kills.

I don't care about the stupidly forgettable characters or turgid plot. The movie was bad because the action scenes were incredibly lousy. They were just too blue, too shaky, too murky. Complete waste of a movie just for that.

The final fight, the part when the Pred busted out all of his weapons in the hospital, and the part with the laser traps were cool, I grant you that. But the whole teen subplot was lame and unnecessary, and so was the lousy response from the National Guard. Though I guess it can be attributed to the sinister Colonel guy (who sounded too frightened; they should had just made him into a ruthless 'greater good', burn 'em all G-man) sending in a crappy unit to probe the capabilities of the enemy. And the Iraq War.

[PeZook]

The thing I actually liked about this installment was how minimalistic the exposition was. They didn't even have fake green text show up going "Earth- 2007 AD" or "Yautja homeworld." As a result, I really don't know if that response was by all Predators, or just one lone hunter. For all we know, he was the equivalent of the local sheriff responsible for this backwater area where the Solar System is in, or maybe he was just a greedy bounty hunter who decided to get a few kills.

I have a theory that Alien hunting of the kind we saw in AvP is actually illegal for Predators to do, and the Wolf was either an organizer of such events for stupid young males, or a relative of the idiot teens who decided to go "prove their testicles" to Earth.

I mean, the AvP predators were obviously inept idiots, from failing to scan their fallen comrade for infestation down to shooting down their own ship in AvP2. So I like to think the Wolf got the message and went "Shit, now everybody's gonna find out about my little operation! I gotta do something about it, quick!"

It would be nice for this to be true, because then we could conveniently forget the entire "LOL hunter race" thing about the Predators.

I don't care about the stupidly forgettable characters or turgid plot. The movie was bad because the action scenes were incredibly lousy. They were just too blue, too shaky, too murky. Complete waste of a movie just for that.

You know, I disagree. An action movie, just like any other movie is made great by its characters, plot and pacing, not just action scenes themselves. AvP2 was horrible because characters were cretins, conflict was artificial and stupid, suspense was non-existent and characters were bland and flat - and thus, you didn't care about them at all. I pretty much watched the movie to see a Predator kicking Alien ass, and it didn't quite help that I cringed every time a human character opened his fucking mouth.

The final fight, the part when the Pred busted out all of his weapons in the hospital, and the part with the laser traps were cool, I grant you that. But the whole teen subplot was lame and unnecessary, and so was the lousy response from the National Guard. Though I guess it can be attributed to the sinister Colonel guy (who sounded too frightened; they should had just made him into a ruthless 'greater good', burn 'em all G-man) sending in a crappy unit to probe the capabilities of the enemy. And the Iraq War.

It's more than "lousy response". It was total incompetence.

...and also holywood-style "pretend soldiering", where half an infantry platoon roll into town and "sets up a perimeter" (buzzword!) by running off randomly in all directions. What the fuck were they trying to do there?

Then there's the old and tired cliche of "nuke them to be safe". Never mind nobody knew where all the aliens were ; And that nuking would just create a huge pile of rubble to search later on, conveniently turning a rather orderly town into an Ideal Alien Environment.

[Anarchist Bunny]

I thought from the first five minutes trailer released(I've yet to see the movie) that Wolf went because of the Predalien. Sort of like the big game hunter in The Lost World that was there to hunt a T-Rex. I think this was just a once in a lifetime hunt that he just had to do.

[Anguirus]

When the first alien grew to large size, it was explained that it had probably fed off the foodstores in the ship. Similarly, in Aliens, there was livestock at the colony and therefore plenty of food available for them to eat.

I don't remember either of those lines, though they are reasonable enough explanations.

By the same token, you could say that the chestbursters ate their hosts in AvP, since we never see the bodies again. Though I grant that this is uncharacteristic behavior, and agree that their whole life cycle in AvP is WAY too fast.

That's probably why the "xeno-wanking" in AvP1 was more egregious to me than in AvP2. There are at least time gaps in AvP2 that correspond roughly to the time gaps from Alien, as long as we grant that, lacking medical care, the kid and his father woke up an hour or so later in the process than Kane did. (And interestingly enough, AvP2 is the first film to ever show a chestburster running around on its own for a while without having just blasted out of someone.)

Still, I would say that realism has never been a concern with these guys. All things considered, a new type of Alien hocking chestburster loogies down people's throats doesn't seem totally off the wall to me. Heck, that's just paedomorphism: the adult wound up with some traits of the facehugger.

[Baal]

I found the movie to be predictable and disappointing.

And then the little things took me out of it. Oh, look, it's the mom back from the Army...wearing Marine camo. Oh, look, three muscle head high school punks fall into a pool with one of the main characters, oh, suprise, the black guy dies first.

The part that really annoyed me was the totally obvious lets make the audience totally hate the three punks so no one cares when they die.

The whole jock-asshole angle was just so predictable that I hated every second of it.

[Baal]

When the first alien grew to large size, it was explained that it had probably fed off the foodstores in the ship. Similarly, in Aliens, there was livestock at the colony and therefore plenty of food available for them to eat.

I don't remember either of those lines, though they are reasonable enough explanations.

By the same token, you could say that the chestbursters ate their hosts in AvP, since we never see the bodies again. Though I grant that this is uncharacteristic behavior, and agree that their whole life cycle in AvP is WAY too fast.

That's probably why the "xeno-wanking" in AvP1 was more egregious to me than in AvP2. There are at least time gaps in AvP2 that correspond roughly to the time gaps from Alien, as long as we grant that, lacking medical care, the kid and his father woke up an hour or so later in the process than Kane did. (And interestingly enough, AvP2 is the first film to ever show a chestburster running around on its own for a while without having just blasted out of someone.)

Still, I would say that realism has never been a concern with these guys. All things considered, a new type of Alien hocking chestburster loogies down people's throats doesn't seem totally off the wall to me. Heck, that's just paedomorphism: the adult wound up with some traits of the facehugger.

There is one scene that suggests feeding. An alien can be seen biting a human victim over and over again long after the victim would be dead. What else would it be doing if not feeding.

[Baal]

When the first alien grew to large size, it was explained that it had probably fed off the foodstores in the ship. Similarly, in Aliens, there was livestock at the colony and therefore plenty of food available for them to eat.

I don't remember either of those lines, though they are reasonable enough explanations.

By the same token, you could say that the chestbursters ate their hosts in AvP, since we never see the bodies again. Though I grant that this is uncharacteristic behavior, and agree that their whole life cycle in AvP is WAY too fast.

That's probably why the "xeno-wanking" in AvP1 was more egregious to me than in AvP2. There are at least time gaps in AvP2 that correspond roughly to the time gaps from Alien, as long as we grant that, lacking medical care, the kid and his father woke up an hour or so later in the process than Kane did. (And interestingly enough, AvP2 is the first film to ever show a chestburster running around on its own for a while without having just blasted out of someone.)

Still, I would say that realism has never been a concern with these guys. All things considered, a new type of Alien hocking chestburster loogies down people's throats doesn't seem totally off the wall to me. Heck, that's just paedomorphism: the adult wound up with some traits of the facehugger.

There is one scene that suggests feeding. An alien can be seen biting a human victim over and over again long after the victim would be dead. What else would it be doing if not feeding.

[Aaron]

There is one scene that suggests feeding. An alien can be seen biting a human victim over and over again long after the victim would be dead. What else would it be doing if not feeding.

Playing with the kill? The large cats do this with their dead prey.

[Battlehymn Republic]

You know, I disagree. An action movie, just like any other movie is made great by its characters, plot and pacing, not just action scenes themselves. AvP2 was horrible because characters were cretins, conflict was artificial and stupid, suspense was non-existent and characters were bland and flat - and thus, you didn't care about them at all.

I agree. My point is just that the film was a complete failure not because of those things, but because even the action sequences sucked. Because you couldn't see anything. If those scenes had been magically fixed, the film would have been at least passable. Around Alien: Resurrection level, maybe slightly better. Or slightly worse because of the teenage element.

...and also holywood-style "pretend soldiering", where half an infantry platoon roll into town and "sets up a perimeter" (buzzword!) by running off randomly in all directions. What the fuck were they trying to do there?

There was also a big problem with the film at that stage- it's not clear what was going on with the town. For one thing, not only did we ever have a good idea of how big the place was (it apparently was big enough to have some sort of oil power plant run by one guy, as well as a pretty decent-looking hospital), we didn't have a clear idea of how bad the infestation was spreading. For some reason even as there was a big exodus out, the hospital was still bringing wounded in instead of trying to get them to the next closest city, and then all of a sudden the National Guard comes in and the streets are already deserted and war-torn. Very confusing and muddled.

[Anguirus]

There is one scene that suggests feeding. An alien can be seen biting a human victim over and over again long after the victim would be dead. What else would it be doing if not feeding.

From which movie? AvP2?

Feeding behavior of the Aliens has always been curiously downplayed. The Anchorpoint Essays couldn't find a single ironclad example. Victims were turned into eggs in the Alien director's cut, and hosts were left to rot in the walls of the hive in Aliens. I can't remember if the scientists mention anything about it in Resurrection.

[Oskuro]

Haven't seen the movie yet, but the minor spoiler about a host spawning three aliens got me thinking.

In the original Alien, the Pilot creature had several chestburster holes in its torso too. It's been a concept I've thought about ever since I saw it, that we've never seen what the Xenos were supposed to be like in their "original" form, and that maybe the human-spawned aliens were actually lesser versions of their species.

That could account for all the weaknesses that make them so not-the-ultimate-bioweapon, and would fit nicely with the predalien being based on a more powerful species.


Anyway, just that thought.


Oh, and it ain't very canon, but on the AvP games, when playing the alien, you actually have to feed on your victims to regain health, wich I find strangely hilarious.

[Pulp Hero]

This movie really annoyed me. One thing I absolutely hated was the the Army-chick could both drive a stryker and fly a heliocopter. Why is it assumed that someone in the military is instantly familiar with any piece of hardware? Oh and the fucked up cammes, but that is just a minor quip.

I did like the actual predator. He was lean, well armed and fairly smart. This is the first time since the original film a predator has looked good on screen.

[Molyneux]

This movie really annoyed me. One thing I absolutely hated was the the Army-chick could both drive a stryker and fly a heliocopter. Why is it assumed that someone in the military is instantly familiar with any piece of hardware? Oh and the fucked up cammes, but that is just a minor quip.

I did like the actual predator. He was lean, well armed and fairly smart. This is the first time since the original film a predator has looked good on screen.

I thought it was fairly obvious that the proto-Ripley has a master's degree in Military! - you know, like most smart-guy characters have a degree in Science!, including physics, chemistry, biology, medicine, forensic entomology...

And Wolf did look believable on screen. That was a major improvement, although his aim still needed work.

And the idea of him being just a hunter going for the hunt-of-a-lifetime rather than a 'cleanup man' actually makes quite a lot of sense...though with Predators, there's no reason he couldn't be both.

I still would have preferred it if he had survived the movie.

[Anguirus]

I still would have preferred it if he had survived the movie.

Me too. They could have had him as the grizzled survivor/mentor if the Strauses ever do another AvP in space.

In the original Alien, the Pilot creature had several chestburster holes in its torso too.

Really? I only ever saw the one, but I'll keep an eye out for that.

I have thought that twins or trips might be one explanation as to the large number of Aliens in Aliens, despite the fact that the absolute upper limit on the number of people successfully impregnated is 156, and it's almost certainly much lower due to people killed by Aliens, suicides, mercy-killings, additional medical procedures, accidents, what-have-you. The Aliens aren't nearly competent enough to capture nearly every member of an armed, prepared force.

Of course, they could have been grabbing livestock I suppose...but as Wong said, they presumably have to eat something.

[Oskuro]

I still would have preferred it if he had survived the movie.

Yeah. Why did he have to die? Can't we have a recurring Predator character? What's this obsession in many movies with always killing off characters (specially if they are not the "good" guys, or not human).

Really? I only ever saw the one, but I'll keep an eye out for that.

According to the Wikipedia article on the Pilot, it's just a single hole. I remember several holes, both seeing them and from the dialogue, but it could have perfectly been an error on my part due to confusing visuals, and the spanish dub not beeing 100% accurate.


Also, according to the Wikipedia article on AvPR:

The directors stated that this is a new feature in the mythos that they have invented; a young Queen does not lay eggs but directly implants embryos into hosts so it can quickly establish a new hive. After successfully creating a nest, the Predalien would then mature into a full-grown Queen, grow an egg sac, and stop directly implanting embryos and begin producing eggs.

This of course implies that the Predator DNA just meant cosmetic changes for the young Queen, changes she did not seem to pass on to the new offspring (maybe indicating that the Xenos always keep a part of their DNA intact, thus not adquiring non-xeno traits from their queen?)


I've always wondered what would happen if a facehugger infects a Xeno....

[Anguirus]

the spanish dub not beeing 100% accurate.

That's probably part of your problem. There's nothing like that in the original dialogue. They just say "it's like he exploded from the inside."

I've always wondered what would happen if a facehugger infects a Xeno....

The facehugger may not be capable of attacking a creature with the pheromones/whatever of an adult Alien. It also strikes me that the secondary jaw is an extremely formidable defense. It's fast enough to obliterate the facehugger on its way in, and the Alien's exoskeleton will prevent much damage from the thing's blood.

[RazorOutlaw]

The directors stated that this is a new feature in the mythos that they have invented; a young Queen does not lay eggs but directly implants embryos into hosts so it can quickly establish a new hive. After successfully creating a nest, the Predalien would then mature into a full-grown Queen, grow an egg sac, and stop directly implanting embryos and begin producing eggs.

This of course implies that the Predator DNA just meant cosmetic changes for the young Queen, changes she did not seem to pass on to the new offspring (maybe indicating that the Xenos always keep a part of their DNA intact, thus not adquiring non-xeno traits from their queen?)

With that section you've quoted I remember Alien 3's original concept (or deleted scene?) of a super facehugger wherein the creature can implant multiple hosts before expiring. There's something better in my mind about a super facehugger than the alien queen implanting embryos directly and I hope future movie directors ignore AVP:R's rubbish.

[Junghalli]

I've always wondered what would happen if a facehugger infects a Xeno

I think they'd probably have some sort of mechanism to keep them from infecting their own species. It would make sense, anyway.

There's something better in my mind about a super facehugger than the alien queen implanting embryos directly and I hope future movie directors ignore AVP:R's rubbish.

Yeah, I'm with Darth Wong on this. Those creatures just keep getting more wanked out and illogical all the time, I'm so sick of it. So now a young queen directly implants its hosts at first but then, for some reason, switches over to a less efficient means of reproduction when it gets older? Why don't the drones just paralyze their prey and bring it to the mature queen for direct implantation then; the facehuggers are now basically superfluous to the thing's life cycle. Yeah, you can think up reasons (especially if you assume they're artificial), but to me it stinks of a BS retcon to make them more "cool" and powerful.

I think the problem is a lot of scriptwriters just don't get what makes a monster scary. They think the way to make it scary is to make it more powerful, so their solution to making an interesting sequel is to wank out the monster some more. They don't realize it's all about execution. The monster in Alien was, for all we knew, little more than a big mean clever crocodile, but that didn't stop it from being vastly scarier than their wanked-out AvP versions.

Rant over.

[Oskuro]

I've always wondered what would happen if a facehugger infects a Xeno

I think they'd probably have some sort of mechanism to keep them from infecting their own species. It would make sense, anyway.

Not really, infecting drones could be a way to replace them when they become old, or get badly hurt. Maybe even with cooperation from the would-be victims... Because, otherwise, it makes an stupid reproductive method even stupider. I mean, a single drone per host? That makes them completely dependent on the hosts' ability to reproduce, and seeing how they conserved resources in Aliens, they would probably hit an eventual population cap. If they have no way to renew the subjects, then the species would die out.


Now that I think about it, that wouldn't be a bad behaviour for an engineered "weapon". It quickly consumes the target population, does not overpopulate, and eventually dies out, leaving the target area ripe for colonization.... Also, their reproductive systems move on their own (facehuggers), they need no technology to be lethal, and if delivered to densely populated areas with places to hide (like cities), they can be effective even aganist superiorly armed opponents.

Hmmm, ponder on this I shall...

[Junghalli]

Not really, infecting drones could be a way to replace them when they become old, or get badly hurt.

True.

Because, otherwise, it makes an stupid reproductive method even stupider. I mean, a single drone per host? That makes them completely dependent on the hosts' ability to reproduce, and seeing how they conserved resources in Aliens, they would probably hit an eventual population cap. If they have no way to renew the subjects, then the species would die out.

This isn't a problem for species that reproduce the same way on Earth, like those wasps that lay their eggs inside catterpillars. And the xenomorphs can parasitize a wide variety of species, making them a lot less vulnerable to fluctuations in prey populations than those species. The only environment where it's a problem is where there's a sharp shortage of available prey, like a spaceship or the colony on LV-426, but in environments like that you have other sustainability problems for a population of big predators, like food. In an environment like a jungle it wouldn't be a problem.

[Oskuro]

This isn't a problem for species that reproduce the same way on Earth, like those wasps that lay their eggs inside catterpillars.

True, although I think those wasps lay more than a single egg per host, wich is my main complaint about the Xeno implantation system.

And the xenomorphs can parasitize a wide variety of species, making them a lot less vulnerable to fluctuations in prey populations than those species.

True again, my Aliens-based example was really flawed, as you just pointed out.

[Junghalli]

True, although I think those wasps lay more than a single egg per host, wich is my main complaint about the Xeno implantation system.

Well, the queen does seem to pop out eggs more-or-less constantly, so assuming a dependable supply of prey a xenomorph hive should have no problem staying at or above replacement rate. For the most part, I don't really see it as a serious liability.

Besides, it's entirely possible that some facehuggers do carry multiple eggs. I think somebody posted a while back that this might be more-or-less required for the amount of xenomorphs we saw in Aliens. And Alien 3 has good circumstantial evidence that a "royal" facehugger may be able to put parasites in multiple victims.

I actually found a rather interesting theory on the net once about Alien 3. The theory was that the "runner" alien might actually have been a xenomorph king, the idea being that it would mate with and fertilize the queen when it matured. It probably wouldn't really help with genetic diversity much and it was all conjecture, but I have to admit a certain fondness for it because it suggests an alternate to that IMO retarded "they take on the characteristics of their hosts!" idea (or would have if it wasn't for the Predalien anyway).

[Anguirus]

The monster in Alien was, for all we knew, little more than a big mean clever crocodile, but that didn't stop it from being vastly scarier than their wanked-out AvP versions.

No one is ever going to remake Alien and have it be scarier than Alien. In the AvP movies the Aliens cannot just be big mean crocodiles, or they do not pose any threat at all to the Predators, much less to armed humans.

A central concept of the Alien mythos is that they are incredibly dangerous bioweapons. They need all the "wanking" they can get to actually be credible in this role.

Hell, the first movie almost ended with the creature biting Ripley's head off and then sending a message to Earth in her voice. The second movie made them smart enough to deliberately cut the humans' power (though it made them dumb in several other ways). The whole POINT of having Aliens in a movie is to wank them.

[andrewgpaul]

The bioweapon shit is all from the EU. Hardly a 'central concept of the mythos'

Plus, there's a difference between being intelligent and being physically impossible.