Babylon 5 what-if (Severed Dreams)

[Anguirus]

Also, given B5's established fragility, you have to wonder why B5's defenses were all built into the station itself, rather than being designed as a network of defense satellites. What's the point of having defenses which cannot engage the enemy until he is already in direct shooting range of your fragile station?

I'll take a stab at this one...B5 is so close to the jumpgate for reasons of commerce that it's difficult to imagine an enemy approaching that isn't about to be in or already in weapons range. So in order to stop shots from getting through to the station, they have to stick interceptors on it. And if you're going to do that anyway, you might as well have capship-killing guns that are fed directly from the fusion reactor.

It appears that in the B5-verse offensive technology has vastly outstripped defensive technology. Even interceptors can only stop shots getting through for a minute or so before overheating. Capital ships are repeatedly destroyed by squadrons of fighters or a few shots from a comparable vessel. The station really isn't any more fragile than something like the Minbari flagship, which was destroyed by the blast wave of a 2 megaton bomb detonating some distance away.

[Darth Wong]

Also, given B5's established fragility, you have to wonder why B5's defenses were all built into the station itself, rather than being designed as a network of defense satellites. What's the point of having defenses which cannot engage the enemy until he is already in direct shooting range of your fragile station?

I'll take a stab at this one...B5 is so close to the jumpgate for reasons of commerce that it's difficult to imagine an enemy approaching that isn't about to be in or already in weapons range. So in order to stop shots from getting through to the station, they have to stick interceptors on it. And if you're going to do that anyway, you might as well have capship-killing guns that are fed directly from the fusion reactor.

If it is indeed so close to the jumpgate that anyone coming through has the drop on the station, that is an incredibly stupid decision and in no way exonerates its lousy defensive setup. They could just as easily have positioned it farther away. It won't cost significantly more for a transport to cover a few minutes of extra distance. This is space; it can coast. And there's no need to require connection to B5's main reactor in order to power a defensive satellite; in case you forgot, Earth has a whole network of such installations in the show.

It appears that in the B5-verse offensive technology has vastly outstripped defensive technology. Even interceptors can only stop shots getting through for a minute or so before overheating. Capital ships are repeatedly destroyed by squadrons of fighters or a few shots from a comparable vessel.

All the more reason to have defensive satellites or heavy patrols to protect the station before attackers get in range.

The station really isn't any more fragile than something like the Minbari flagship, which was destroyed by the blast wave of a 2 megaton bomb detonating some distance away.

Yes it is. Watch the pilot.

[Anguirus]

Yes it is. Watch the pilot.

Conceded. I do remember that sequence.

The rest of your points are all good too. In fact, Earth did do as you suggest, relying on defense satellites and having their jumpgate all the way by Io.

I guess the only other idea I have is that B5 was not originally intended to stave off a major assault, and was not even heavily armed until season 2.

[NecronLord]

I expect the original defences were intended to scare off criminals or malcontent cargo haulers. Oh, and shoot down debris. It wasn't designed to stand up to warships, after all. And why should it be? A force destroying that flagship diplomatic station would incur retaliation from its co-sponsors, the Minbari.

[andrewgpaul]

Indeed. Ironically, the upgraded weapons were added by EarthGov, sometime after Clark became president. presumably to make the station more of a military outpost of Earthforce and to reinforce Clark's tightening grip on power.

[Darth Wong]

I expect the original defences were intended to scare off criminals or malcontent cargo haulers. Oh, and shoot down debris. It wasn't designed to stand up to warships, after all. And why should it be? A force destroying that flagship diplomatic station would incur retaliation from its co-sponsors, the Minbari.

Actually, after the weapon upgrades, EA believed it was capable of standing up to warships. It was even explicitly stated onscreen, in pretty much those terms. Despite the fact that it could not fire on enemy ships until they were already in range to fire at the station itself, which is fragile as hell and full of civilians.

[Darksider]

Actually, after the weapon upgrades, EA believed it was capable of standing up to warships. It was even explicitly stated onscreen, in pretty much those terms. Despite the fact that it could not fire on enemy ships until they were already in range to fire at the station itself, which is fragile as hell and full of civilians.

The guy who said that was an infantry general, he might have just been grandstanding.

[andrewgpaul]

I think NL was talking about the pre-refit weaponry. You're correct, the refit in GroPos was supposed to be capable of fighting off enemy warships. Severed Dreams proved this was not the case (as did the previous episode with the Centauri battleship - they lost one of the front prongs, after all); they managed to fight off a couple of Omegas plus supporting ships only with the assistance of friendly ships, and even then, the defensive weaponry was insufficient, and they failed to prevent Marine boarders.

Mind you, after that, B5 had a permanent defensive fleet, thanks to EA deserters, the Minbari and the League.

[Aaron]

I believe the General said Warcruiser, which implies to me that he thought it would hold off a Minbari vessel.

[consequences]

I think NL was talking about the pre-refit weaponry. You're correct, the refit in GroPos was supposed to be capable of fighting off enemy warships. Severed Dreams proved this was not the case (as did the previous episode with the Centauri battleship - they lost one of the front prongs, after all); they managed to fight off a couple of Omegas plus supporting ships only with the assistance of friendly ships, and even then, the defensive weaponry was insufficient, and they failed to prevent Marine boarders.

It was supposed to be able to fight off a warship, not multiples, and it was never specified to be able to do so without damage. Since the station's still there, and the ships that attacked it aren't, the upgrade lived up to its billing.

[NeoGoomba]

Wasn't B4 of a much more solid, sturdier construction? Its been a few years since I've seen that particular episode, but I remember thinking B4 looked more like a battlestation than anything else.

Perhaps Earthforce lost so much cash on B1-4 that in order to follow through with the Babylon Project they had to use a cheaper overall design for their diplomatic station?

[Darth Wong]

It was supposed to be able to fight off a warship, not multiples, and it was never specified to be able to do so without damage. Since the station's still there, and the ships that attacked it aren't, the upgrade lived up to its billing.

You can't excuse bad writing by pointing out that the writers wrote themselves out of their own bad situation. Of course it worked out; that is not a justification of the writing.

[Vendetta]

If it is indeed so close to the jumpgate that anyone coming through has the drop on the station, that is an incredibly stupid decision and in no way exonerates its lousy defensive setup. They could just as easily have positioned it farther away. It won't cost significantly more for a transport to cover a few minutes of extra distance. This is space; it can coast. And there's no need to require connection to B5's main reactor in order to power a defensive satellite; in case you forgot, Earth has a whole network of such installations in the show.

Distance from the jumpgate is pretty much irrelevant, as any ship large enough to be a threat to the station would be able to create it's own jump point anyway, and could show up where it pleased.

[consequences]

It was supposed to be able to fight off a warship, not multiples, and it was never specified to be able to do so without damage. Since the station's still there, and the ships that attacked it aren't, the upgrade lived up to its billing.

You can't excuse bad writing by pointing out that the writers wrote themselves out of their own bad situation. Of course it worked out; that is not a justification of the writing.

What bad writing? Did anyone ever claim that it was actually a good idea for the station to try to fight warships, or did they just imply that it could now do more than simply sit there and take it?

[andrewgpaul]

Wasn't B4 of a much more solid, sturdier construction? Its been a few years since I've seen that particular episode, but I remember thinking B4 looked more like a battlestation than anything else.

Perhaps Earthforce lost so much cash on B1-4 that in order to follow through with the Babylon Project they had to use a cheaper overall design for their diplomatic station?

I think that was exactly the case. Hence why Downbelow was such a dump, and the entire Grey 17 sector being 'missing'; the thing was built from bits left over and salvaged from the previous Babylon stations.

IIRC, Babylon 4 was even mobile.

[Ted C]

I believe the General said Warcruiser, which implies to me that he thought it would hold off a Minbari vessel.

No, he definitely said a "warship", presumably meaning something like one of Earth's own Omega-class destroyers.

In "The Fall of Night", we saw that B5's interceptors couldn't repel just half the fire from a Centauri battlecruiser (which was splitting its fire between the station and a Narn cruiser and its escorts).

B5's targeting system probably wouldn't be able to lock onto a Minbari ship at all, which would make the station a sitting duck.

[Darth Wong]

What bad writing? Did anyone ever claim that it was actually a good idea for the station to try to fight warships, or did they just imply that it could now do more than simply sit there and take it?

What part of "it was claimed to be able to take on a warship" did you not fucking understand? The fact is that any audience member with a functioning brain has to work really hard during certain battles to suspend disbelief because it is so fucking easy to harm the station and there is no credible mechanism through which it can defend itself.

[NecronLord]

Actually, after the weapon upgrades, EA believed it was capable of standing up to warships. It was even explicitly stated onscreen, in pretty much those terms. Despite the fact that it could not fire on enemy ships until they were already in range to fire at the station itself, which is fragile as hell and full of civilians.

Yep. With the upgrades. I was thinking before. The upgrades presumably were an effort to make it more able to defend itself with the whole situation going down the tubes. While setting up sattellites might have been more effective, IIRC, they put the new defences in over the course of a few days the GROPOS were there, perhaps they just fitted into some kind of expansion ports, and setting them up in the right orbit would take longer. Presumably it was very much a rush job.

Silly, yes, but it's not like governments are immune to making silly decisions in reality.

[Darth Wong]

Government drone ineptitude would be a more satisfactory explanation if not for the fact that, as pointed out earlier, this half-assed defense actually did work out for them in the show. That's just bad writing.

The "breaching pod" sequence was particularly painful to watch from a realism standpoint, and it bothered me even the first time I saw the episode, despite the fact that my suspension of disbelief is always strongest on first viewing. We're supposed to believe that the station's defenses can actually protect it even though people can land a pod on the station, cut a hole in the hull, and board it? Why the fuck weren't the station's defenses all shot away by that time, if its defenses are so porous that the enemy can successfully hurl slow-moving "breaching pods" at it which are limited to low-G acceleration because of the human passengers inside?

[NecronLord]

Government drone ineptitude would be a more satisfactory explanation if not for the fact that, as pointed out earlier, this half-assed defense actually did work out for them in the show. That's just bad writing.

To be fair, the only time I can recall a warship firing on the station with intent to destroy it was the Centauri one, which splitting its fire to get the Narn cruiser too. The rest of the time, they seemed to want to capture it, which would entail not simply putting a hole in it so that it'd spin itself apart.

The "breaching pod" sequence was particularly painful to watch from a realism standpoint, and it bothered me even the first time I saw the episode, despite the fact that my suspension of disbelief is always strongest on first viewing. We're supposed to believe that the station's defenses can actually protect it even though people can land a pod on the station, cut a hole in the hull, and board it? Why the fuck weren't the station's defenses all shot away by that time, if its defenses are so porous that the enemy can successfully hurl slow-moving "breaching pods" at it which are limited to low-G acceleration because of the human passengers inside?

I think that probably would have worked better if they'd simply had an Omega shoot the guns off the front and forcibly dock with the station...

[Anguirus]

Government drone ineptitude would be a more satisfactory explanation if not for the fact that, as pointed out earlier, this half-assed defense actually did work out for them in the show. That's just bad writing.

I don't follow. No one ever said the station was meant to stand up to a prolonged enemy attack...it's just that it packs the offensive power (post-GROPOS) to very quickly destroy enemy warships. Sort of a MAD philosophy I guess.

The "breaching pod" sequence was particularly painful to watch from a realism standpoint...

The breaching pod does demonstrate a serious lack of B5 point-defense, but this is consistent with the station's inability to destroy all of the Starfuries around it. None of the enemy capital ships launched an attack on the station, because they were landing a boarding party. I mean, it's not like these guys are Klingons, blasting the place with all their might and landing boarders. Now if B5's interceptors held off a concerted beam or missile attack, and then proved incapable of dealing with a breaching pod, that would indeed be shitty writing.

It's also worth noting that there is more than one breaching pod in the "big scary fleet" shot, but only one makes it to the station.

[Darth Wong]

I don't follow. No one ever said the station was meant to stand up to a prolonged enemy attack...it's just that it packs the offensive power (post-GROPOS) to very quickly destroy enemy warships. Sort of a MAD philosophy I guess.

And that is not retarded compared to deploying defense satellites, which would have been easier to deploy than physically modifying the station?

The breaching pod does demonstrate a serious lack of B5 point-defense, but this is consistent with the station's inability to destroy all of the Starfuries around it. None of the enemy capital ships launched an attack on the station, because they were landing a boarding party. I mean, it's not like these guys are Klingons, blasting the place with all their might and landing boarders.

Oh puh-lease, that whole sequence was idiotic. The idea of taking over such a large installation with tiny handfuls of boarders is retarded. The idea of launching breaching pods while making no apparent effort to knock out the station defenses is retarded. The idea of bringing warships close enough to launch these pods with any vague chance of connection but not shooting at the station's defenses is retarded. The fact that the enemy seemed to have no particular direction at all for their fire other than "aim in the general vicinity of the station" was retarded. The whole thing was done because JMS wanted his dramatic "war is hell" shot with the Narns charging like idiots.

Now if B5's interceptors held off a concerted beam or missile attack, and then proved incapable of dealing with a breaching pod, that would indeed be shitty writing.

See above.

It's also worth noting that there is more than one breaching pod in the "big scary fleet" shot, but only one makes it to the station.

And that somehow makes this scene non-retarded?

[Anguirus]

And that is not retarded compared to deploying defense satellites, which would have been easier to deploy than physically modifying the station?

A fair point. Only possible reason is, like I said before, wanting to power the weapons from B5's reactor. The satellites deployed around Earth are very powerful, but are also very large and possibly quite expensive. They could just stick a bunch of missile batteries out there, though.

The idea of taking over such a large installation with tiny handfuls of boarders is retarded.

Which is probably why it failed to work...they probably assumed that B5 security wouldn't put up a fight. I don't think they were ever meant to pacify the whole station, just make a run for C&C.

The idea of launching breaching pods while making no apparent effort to knock out the station defenses is retarded. The idea of bringing warships close enough to launch these pods with any vague chance of connection but not shooting at the station's defenses is retarded.

Agreed. The mass fighter attack on the station was probably their effort to take out the defensive systems, though...it just failed because they couldn't secure superiority over B5's fighters.

The fact that the enemy seemed to have no particular direction at all for their fire other than "aim in the general vicinity of the station" was retarded.

The destroyers did seem to be very focused on each other, which is why the Churchill got toasted. And their Starfuries did make one run at C&C but that was rebuffed by the point-defense.

And that somehow makes this scene non-retarded?

That observation isn't meant to invalidate all of your objections. Just pointing out that a number of breaching pods likely were successfully intercepted, and at the very least they failed to get to the station.

[Chris OFarrell]

The way I saw the sequence in Severed Dreams going is this.

1. The EA Taskforce jumps in, using B5's own Jump Gate to keep their own Jump Engines charged, in case they needed to make a quick getaway. Upon arriving, they demand the surrender of the station, the renegade ships and so on. B5 refuses.

2. The EA ships fighters move forward with the breaching pod. Their goal is to punch through the opposing fighter screen, tie up B5's defense grid and get the Breaching Pod into place. The Alexander probably had lost a significant percentage of its fighters by this point, having been fighting for a while against Earthforce. The Churchill probably had a full complement and B5 had its own fighters, some of which were new, some of which were old crap.

The numbers probably were somewhat even, but the EA group essentially wasted its fighters by sending them into the teeth of the enemy destroyers and B5's defense grid and defending fighters without any real support where they were steadily chewed to pieces, but they succeeded in tying up the defenses long enough for the breaching pod, which I guess has significant ECM and EW gear, to sneak in.

The marines plan IMO and from what I recall JMS saying, would be to dock right near the Command and Control, capture it and the command crew and do their best to lock down the station, probably turn B5's guns on the renegades and unpack enough heavy weapons to fortify it against any real chance for the lightly armed security forces to take it back before the occupation troops, possibly in the second reserve task force which ordered B5 to 'prepare to be borded' showed up.

Instead, they landed far away, were caught by security and got swamped, even if the stupidity of the Narns running into the fire zone meant they cost B5 a lot of people, though their horrible accuracy also helped.

3. At the same time, the two Hyperion Cruisers move in to support the fighters in their attack on B5 and supporting the Breaching Pods movements. B5's defense grid engages them along with the Churchill, leaving the mass of allied fighters and the Alexander to engage the two Omegas, which are now without effective fighter cover of their own.

The Hyperions, also increasingly without fighter cover are cut off and destroyed, but not before they do a great deal of damage to the Churchill, probably helped by the Roanoke, which leaps forward seeing an opportunity to take out the enemy Omega, pounding Churchill again and again as she closes in, which results in Churchill ramming her and taking her with them.

Alexander, along with the majority of the fighters has at this point been pounding the final enemy capital ship, B5 finally joins in and it too succumbs.

At this point the EA reinforcements seeing B5 down one capital ship, with another damaged, at least a third of their fighters destroyed and probably the breaching pods communication systems screaming for backup to save their foothold on the station, jump in, only to have three Minbari War Cruisers which can gut an EA ship in about two seconds -literally in ITB- and told to back off.

B5 still has active interceptors, along with the Alexander, which can probably minimize a lot of the incoming fire, at least for the ten seconds or so it would be necessary for the War Cruisers to vaporize the EA ships. And as the EA ships really don't want to restart the Earth-Minbari war, they run.

The tactics used by the EA ships are stupid to say the least, throwing away their fighters and the Hyperions to protect the SINGLE breaching pod, which was probably forced away from its LZ anyway and leaving two Omegas without any real fighter cover at the mercy of another Omega, B5 and a whole butload of Fighters, then leaving ONE Omega at their mercy after the two ships separate and Churchill takes half their firepower out.

Really, this is just what I always thought happen, to explain why the Breaching pod was able to get in close close, why the Churchill got gang banged while the other capital ships really didn't have any clear damage at that point, where the two Hyperions went and why they sent in a breaching pod against a station with a quarter of a million people that, if the EA propaganda was accurate, might have been half alien collaborators and willing to fight...

[andrewgpaul]

Added to that, Chris, there was more than one breaching pod. It's possible the others did make it, but we never saw footage of them - or maybe they all docked in the same place. Alternatively, like Anguirius suggests, the rest got blown up.