Torchwood Series 2 trailer (spoilers)

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-01-03 04:18pm

Hillary wrote:Is it a coincidence that the best stuff in series three (Human Nature, Family of something or other, Blink and Utopia) were all about the Doctor's relationship with someone other than Martha (i.e. the matron and Jack) or didn't have the two of them in it much at all?

Oh sir I do believe you've cracked it. But you can't do that much, as people will complain that 'it's called Doctor Who where is the Doctor'.

Those stories are some of the best in DW's history, but pretty much everything else is made of poo. There are *bits* of Sound of Drums that are good (the Doctor/Master stuff) but Last of the Time Lords makes it all irrelevant by revealing that all that backstory and durms bullshit is TOTALLY MEANINGLESS.

Martha is of course almost totally useless.

Hey Dartzap, did that thing just say 'record ratings in the US'? How can this be possible?

Dartzap · Post by **Dartzap** » 2008-01-03 04:21pm

Hey Dartzap, did that thing just say 'record ratings in the US'? How can this be possible?

I know. Its quite worrying, isn't it?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-01-03 04:33pm

Then again, US show = rubbish, TW = rubbish... maybe there's a connection. People watched Lost after all.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2008-01-03 04:47pm

Dartzap wrote:
Hey Dartzap, did that thing just say 'record ratings in the US'? How can this be possible?
I know. Its quite worrying, isn't it?

So? Americans watch shit. This is news?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-01-03 04:51pm

Dude you just got instaposted by 15m.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2008-01-03 05:31pm

Stark wrote:Dude you just got instaposted by 15m.

... shit.

Maybe I had a window open for a long time or something...

Anyhoo, tangentially (and to make this less of a +1 post) I was thinking about what you were saying, Stark, about how people who expect Doctor Who to appear in a Doctor Who episode are stupid, and I can kinda of see your point in respects to 'The Chrismas Invasion' and 'Blink" which were good despite being Doctor light an "Love in Monsters" which I disliked but am now wondering whether that was more do with disliking the plot of the episode and Moaning Murtle being in it than the lack of Doctor.

Would it be premature from just L&M and Blink to assume part of the New Doctor Who formulae is having at least one Doctor light episode a series?

Oh god, this was a little pointless. Am I begining to sound like Big Orange? *shudders*

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-01-03 05:46pm

I think that actually IS the policy - one Doctor-light ep per season. Exploring drama from other perspectives = fail, apparently, because the Doctor isn't in it. Or something.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2008-01-03 05:57pm

Stark wrote:But you can't do that much, as people will complain that 'it's called Doctor Who where is the Doctor':lol:"

Haha Starko, fuck you. Did you think I quit because I thought you won? I quit because I got bored, but if you want to continue I'm a little less bored now. I like how you bring up Sound of Drums as if it supports your position when Sound of Drums was almost totally Martha, and of course you forget the king episode: Love and Monsters. As good as an episode without the Doctor can get, it can be really really bad and you ignore that.

Like it or not, if the Doctor is missing there's more likelihood of the episode being shit. I haven't seen Torchwood yet, but if it's as shit as you say it is, Torchwood proves the point with a whole fucking series of missing Doctor.

You make it seem as if the only point is the name "Doctor Who." Take a hint, when I said "It's called Doctor Who" was short for Doctor Who is about the travels of a Time Lord and his companion, not his fan club. You even twisted my words to make it seem as if the defining quality of a good Doctor Who episode is the presence of the Doctor, when I said Christmas Invasion was good, but barely good and not as good as Voyage.

In short it was a relative comparison: good isn't an on or off switch. So fuck you!

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2008-01-03 05:59pm

ghetto edit: sorry, confused Sound of Drums for LotTA.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-01-03 06:10pm

Are you on crack? I don't 'bring up sound of drums like it supports me': I mention in passing that it has only a few good points, AND SPECIFICALLY REFER TO THE DOCTOR/MASTER STUFF. I ask you, how is this supporting the idea that it's not instant fail to not have much Doctor, when I refer to the Doctor/Master part as the only good part? Sound of Drums ISN'T mostly Martha anyway, you're thinking of something else. Your correction makes this worse, as I only mention LotTL to say that it's COMPLETE BOLLOCKS, because I fucking hate it and it is the worst finale of the new season and the whole concept behind it was totally retarded. Wow, that really 'supports me' right? Even though all I said was 'some people thing Doctor Who sucks without the Doctor', which is a true statement of fact?

You say 'less Doctor = bad ep', but L&M, Blink and Human Nature had little Doctor and were universally awesome. Torchwood isn't even the same fucking show, so it's TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.

Explain how saying in passing that some people will complain it's not Doctor Who without the Doctor in it is twisting your words at all. I don't even mention your fucking name, and you're not the only person who thinks this. Grow a dick. But keep up the hilarious pet names, they're comedy gold and make you look like a fucking retard. This amuses me.

Please note normal people can have an actual discussion about this without going insane like you. ZOMG, you think Doctor Who sucks without the Doctor in it, and ANY ARGUMENT IS TOTALLY WRONG-THINKING!

You hate people disagreeing with your taste that much, even in the face of concrete examples of where you're just plain wrong.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-01-03 06:13pm

PS everyone, Brian basically just said 'Torchwood is bad and has no Doctor, ergo Torchwood is bad BECAUSE it has no Doctor, ergo this supports my contention that you need the Doctor in the show'.

What systemic, writing, character, production and premise problems?

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2008-01-03 06:31pm

But L&M actually sucked donkey balls. It seems to be an episode people are a bit bi-polar about people either love it or hate it. I hate personally hate it but Blink proves that no Doctor = auto-fail but I would think its was a contributing factor.

Making a Doctor Who episode with out the Doctor work is certainly harder than having him. Of course your mileage varies.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-01-03 06:38pm

Yeah, it's a very love/hate episode. Some people think exploring drama in a different way is broken and wrong, but I think it's an episode with a point that works dramatically. Unlike nonsense like the Lazarus Experiment, which basically exists just to say 'PS we can age the Doctor lol' in the finale.

I don't think it's hard to do at all (I can't think of the Doctor light ep in S1 if there was one, so maybe I'm forgetting something), but clearly some people just look for cookie-cutter adventures of this one guy instead of exploring themes in different ways. L&M and Blink are ABOUT the Doctor, coudln't exist without him, and tell us intersting things about him, and saying 'lol suck needs more Doctor' just strikes me as really shallow.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-01-03 06:57pm

PS don't tell Brian you feel that way, he apparently thinks it's an attitude unique to him. It's only split the DW-watching community since it aired 2 years ago.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-03 06:59pm

The second halves of S3s two parters totally let down the first halves. Both LotTL and Evolution could have easily been so very much better.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-01-03 07:03pm

Yeah, Sound was passable, but made much worse by the retarded second part (and they both let down the fanastic Utopia setup). Human Nature was goof throughout, though, although the whole' fury of the Time Lord' thing kinda made the finale even more daft.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2008-01-03 07:23pm

Stark wrote:Yeah, Sound was passable, but made much worse by the retarded second part (and they both let down the fanastic Utopia setup). Human Nature was goof throughout, though, although the whole' fury of the Time Lord' thing kinda made the finale even more daft.

Obviously the Doctor cuts fellow Timelords some slack! Old Boys Network and all, makes killing billions perfectly acceptable, as long as you don't make the doctor tantalise himself with normality. That's just all sorts of unfair!

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-01-03 07:46pm

Crazedwraith wrote:Obviously the Doctor cuts fellow Timelords some slack! Old Boys Network and all, makes killing billions perfectly acceptable, as long as you don't make the doctor tantalise himself with normality. That's just all sorts of unfair!

I think it's just that he was humiliated in human form and wanted to get his dick wet. He wasn't angry that they killed people or tried to mess him up: he's angry that that chick was all 'if you hadn't come here on a whim would anyone have died', totally shutting him down. Displace that anger, Time Lord!

Hillary · Post by **Hillary** » 2008-01-04 08:38am

Stark wrote:
Hillary wrote:Is it a coincidence that the best stuff in series three (Human Nature, Family of something or other, Blink and Utopia) were all about the Doctor's relationship with someone other than Martha (i.e. the matron and Jack) or didn't have the two of them in it much at all?
Oh sir I do believe you've cracked it. But you can't do that much, as people will complain that 'it's called Doctor Who where is the Doctor'. Those stories are some of the best in DW's history, but pretty much everything else is made of poo. There are *bits* of Sound of Drums that are good (the Doctor/Master stuff) but Last of the Time Lords makes it all irrelevant by revealing that all that backstory and durms bullshit is TOTALLY MEANINGLESS.

Martha is of course almost totally useless.

I have been watching some of the repeats recently - Lazarus and 42 are utterly appalling - I was never a fan of Rose, but at least you could really believe that she and the Doctor cared deeply about each other. With the Doctor and Martha it all seems rather forced - just not beliveable. This is made even more obvious by the wonderful interaction between John Smith and matron. Tennant puts in a fantastic performance here - he truly is a different person as John Smith.

I think, more than anything, it is Martha's horrible gushing that imprints itself on far too many of the episodes. It seems to impact adversely on the other characters in every scene she's in, especially Tennant's. Thank God she's fucked off to Torchwood.

Anyone who can't see the greatness in the "no Doctor" episodes has a real problem in my opinion. It's a fantastic idea to show the Doctor's impact on the lives of ordinary people - how contact with him is not, in general, a beneficial thing. L&M was excellent, Blink astounding. LotTL could have been another, had they been brave enough to highlight that the Doctor allowed this to happen to earth because he didn't want to kill his only remaining hombre.

There is still much potential in this series, but it could go either way this year. Catherine Tate needs to step up to the plate big time - we need a strong assistant

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-01-04 08:46am

It's lame that Martha was supposed to be a smarter, more assertive person than Rose, but she turned into Rose+rejection. She blithered on about nonsense that didn't make sense because it wasn't built up properly and usually didn't really make sense in context of the episode either.

It's sad that Sally Sparrow communicated a more believable dramatic relationship with the Doctor by talking to a video and speaking to him for 20 seconds.

I dug the Rose thing, because I think it was lame on purpose. She's some bogan 19yo idiot who meets this powerful, intelligent guy and travels with him. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with how she reacts to this, because I've seen 19yo girls do it to men who DON'T have fucking time machines. Eccleston sold the Doctor's emotional vulnerability enough to make it work from that perspective. And even if you didn't like it, at least it made sense, rather than Martha who was obsessed with the Doctor from literally the first 15m of the first episode, and was played in a convincingly clumsy and indirect way (Rose's mortgage proposition is something extraordinarily 'insecure 19yo girl', for isntance).

Hillary · Post by **Hillary** » 2008-01-04 09:11am

Stark wrote:It's sad that Sally Sparrow communicated a more believable dramatic relationship with the Doctor by talking to a video and speaking to him for 20 seconds.

How much of this, do you think, is Freema's fault and how much is it the writing? The more I see, the more I'm tending towards the latter. True, she has far too many "oh Gosh, the Doctor is so wonderful

....but he doesn't notice me

" lines, but a better actress could have coped much better. Bad casting when all's said and done.

Stark wrote:I dug the Rose thing, because I think it was lame on purpose. She's some bogan 19yo idiot who meets this powerful, intelligent guy and travels with him. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with how she reacts to this, because I've seen 19yo girls do it to men who DON'T have fucking time machines. Eccleston sold the Doctor's emotional vulnerability enough to make it work from that perspective. And even if you didn't like it, at least it made sense, rather than Martha who was obsessed with the Doctor from literally the first 15m of the first episode, and was played in a convincingly clumsy and indirect way (Rose's mortgage proposition is something extraordinarily 'insecure 19yo girl', for isntance).

You're right. My problem with Rose, I think, is that I find it all too easy to forget that she's only 19. Having been exposed to Billie Piper for the past 10 years, I found it difficult to see Rose as anything under the age of 25. Looking at her as a teenager, you are, of course, quite right - it works.

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2008-01-04 02:06pm

Next time we see Martha she'll be... married and working for UNIT, so I have some confidence that she'll be more of the assertive strong character I hoped her to be without the doe-eyed mopey lovestruck thing we saw in S3.

Donna I have confidence could be a great companion, and I'm almost enthused by the rejection she's faced from a lot of fans. She can treat the Doctor with a healthy amount of disrespect.

As for Torchwood, it was undeniably worse than Primeval but Primeval was exceptionally daft too. Chaps are right to point to TW having a seemingly adult mission plan (which given the change of channel and the announcement that they're making a child-friendly cut down version to show before the watershed, I figure they might be aiming to abandon), but if you reject that you're left with a similarly pulpy show which fails fairly basic critical analysis in both cases. I enjoy TW, but I enjoyed it fairly guiltily in S1 because it was exceptionally daft in a lot of cases AND it was trying to pretend to be intelligent scifi. I get the feeling they've moderated themselves somewhat in S2, and dropped the pretence that they're especially serious, which makes me far less guilty about liking what is almost certainly going to be a pretty stupid show.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-01-04 04:28pm

Hillary wrote:How much of this, do you think, is Freema's fault and how much is it the writing? The more I see, the more I'm tending towards the latter. True, she has far too many "oh Gosh, the Doctor is so wonderful ....but he doesn't notice me " lines, but a better actress could have coped much better. Bad casting when all's said and done.

While I could say writing, to be honest Tennant was able to carry off some really appalling writing and at least try to sell it. Freema has two expressions (I'm tempted to get caps, the huge-eyed 'zomg Doctor is wonderful' one and the long frowny 'but he doesn't love me' one) but I guess the scripts give her very little chance to actually be assertive/knowledgable etc. They really did seem to be writing for Rose 2.0.

Hillary wrote:You're right. My problem with Rose, I think, is that I find it all too easy to forget that she's only 19. Having been exposed to Billie Piper for the past 10 years, I found it difficult to see Rose as anything under the age of 25. Looking at her as a teenager, you are, of course, quite right - it works.

Being Australian, I had almost no previous exposure to Billie Piper, and maybe that did help. There were plenty of 'hilariously daft casting' discussions before the show started, but it turned out she could actually act. Who new?

The best part is that it's quite possible she wasn't acting. I know she acts all over the place, but in the DVD special features she comes across as a bit of a tard and the cast and crew seem to roll their eyes a lot.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2008-01-04 04:59pm

In regards to Freema, the reports of her casting seemed to boil down to they really liked working with her in that small part of Doomsday. (In which she did an all right job I thought.) and cast her as The Doctor's new companion based soley on that. Which seems a bit... odd.

Although that may be merely poor reporting in the articles.

I think its more or less half and half. The writing for Martha really sucked for her character and her lame ass loves The Doctor subplot was obviously a result of writing, not her performance. Then again she may not be enough of an actor to rise above such shitty scripts.

When did Piper decide to quit? The writers must have known well in advance of actually writing season 3 right? They seemed to do a bad job of coming up with a new dynamic.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2008-01-05 01:49am

I have a question (I'm an American.....I hate Lost and don't watch the shit shows) It seems that Torchwood Season 2 will take place after Doctor Who Series 3. Then why the heck does Gwen get mad that Jack left them. In Utopia we see him runing to the TARDIS and makes a comment that he tracked the TARDIS from the HUB. Then all the events that took place in the 3 ep finale didn't actually happen to most of the population. So in reality Jacks disaperance will only be a couple of days at most. It could be one of those...."you'll have to watch to figure it out I guess".

And I think that whole Torchwood is the highest rated show is true in the sense that It is the highest rated at the time. It played here on BBC America from October till now... kinda in between our #1 shows taking a break (with our football and all taking up most of the screen time November till Christmas)