Earth and Battlestar Galactica (Spoiler, just to be safe)

[Zor]

As we all know, the comming season of nBSG is going to be the last, which means they are going to have to rap things up rather quickly.

How ever, there is a big question that i think deeply needs to be resolved, which is as follows. When you get to Earth, how do you prevent the Cylons from taking over/nuking it to hell/whatever.

In general, i can think of three rough solutions...

-The Cylons are somehow whiped out. This one is in of itself problematic, their is one battlestar against emperor knows how many basestars, planetary installations, fighters and all that shit. The only concievable way of doing this involves a cop out, some sort of anti cylon virus or artifact from the sons of Kobol or some shit like that.
-The Cylons, for some reason decide/are convinced/what-ever not to destroy earth.
-Earth in whatever form has its own space military forces and in all likelyhood its own domain of colonized star systems to go with it capable of holding their own against the toasters.

IMHO of the three, the last seems the best route to go, it allows for some new ships and is less of a cop out than the other two. However, the fact remains that rapping up the show in one season is going to be a bit tricky. So how should they go about doing this?

Zor

[Patrick Degan]

Just so long as it doesn't involve Dr. Zee and the Space Scouts.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I always thought it'd be awesome if the Fleet showed up and they were greeted by apes.

Unfortunately rights issues would be the main killer of that idea...

[Sidewinder]

-Earth in whatever form has its own space military forces and in all likelyhood its own domain of colonized star systems to go with it capable of holding their own against the toasters.

This solution brings up questions regarding how the Earthlings will view the Colonials. As potential enemies? As cannon fodder for Earth to throw at whatever force it's fighting against? As refugees in need of Earth's aid? As refugees who should be escorted out of Earth-controlled space, like illegal aliens that are caught in the US?

[Dienonychus]

I've always thought the centurions would find a way to rebel against the humanoid cylons. Until they boxed the Number 3s, I figured she would do it. That would probably cripple the Cylons for a bit as they struggle to control their assets. Sins of the father being passed down to the second and third generations and so on

The Earth I saw at the end of Crossroads II seemed to be a bit underdeveloped.

[FA Xerrik]

They could always claim it was happening in the Stargate universe all along, and any number of Ancient plot devices lying around could quickly eliminate the Cylon threat. I'm sure those licensing rights would be far easier to secure than Planet of the Apes. Or, even better, they could trick some adversary (Ori? Wraith? Who's the biggest fish in the pond at this point?) into a big ol' whopper of a battle.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

The Earth I saw at the end of Crossroads II seemed to be a bit underdeveloped.

For the record, you can't really tell that the Earth is inhabited from such an orbital distance depicted in the episode unless you're on the night side. All we can tell is that the show takes place "now" on the geological scale.

[Anguirus]

(All below is 100% my opinion, take it with a huge grain of salt)




I have a feeling that the Final Five will be involved in another Cylon societal revolution, and both sides will arrive at Earth, X, Y, and Z will happen, and eventually the two sides will colonize it together.

They've been laying groundwork for awhile here that each side needs the other to solve its particular problem. The human race has got a pretty small gene pool at this point, and people have unfortunate tendancies to die or refuse to have kids...plus they need a better environment (Earth) to really begin expanding the species again. The Cylons have plenty of population, but very little diversity, both genetically and mentally. Moreover, they have been essentially unable to fulfill their God's commandment to multiply, because they don't consider simply building more adults to fall under this heading.

It's been drilled into our heads that Hera is the future. Why? Because neither side can really survive on its own. The Cylons have nothing to do when they aren't killing people or experimenting on them...their society is on the fast track to nowhere. If they actually killed off the fleet, they'd bore themselves to death. The humans, on the other hand, are a hairsbreadth from being wiped out...and you can bet there will be lots more blood on the deck in season 4.

The most obvious scenario IMO is for the two sides to wind up being our ancestors, or at any rate somehow inspiring various important aspectrs of our society. Then we can invent artificial intelligence at some point in the future and start the cycle of conflict and migration all over again, echoing the show's theme. However, they don't have a habit of doing the obvious on Galactica, so don't count on that happening. I do, however, have a hard time seeing Earth with a battle fleet.

[Johonebesus]

I still think that they should make the Earthlings hostile to both Colonials and Cylons. Maybe the whole cyclical thing means that the Colonials are in fact artificial. The Lords of Kobol made them and they revolted, just like the Cylons. The Earthlings could be the "real" humans who care nothing for any of them.

Really, there's so much that's still mysterious, the nature of the Cylon's god, the motives of the other five, the nature of Baltar's tormentor, there is just no way to know how it's all going to be resolved. If Moore hadn't insisted that there will be no angels and demons, I'd expect the Colonial gods or "ascended" angelic aliens to show up as in the original.

[Anguirus]

I did hear an interesting theory from somewhere that Starbuck is an avatar of Aurora (or some other Colonial god).

It does explain her ability to excel at everything. And it's really just too obvious that she's the last Cylon. I kind of expect them to play it as if she's the Cylon through a good chunk of the season and then (surprise!) she isn't.

[avatarxprime]

Didn't Moore state that Earth is our Earth, i.e. the origin point for Humanity? In that case the big issue becomes why did people leave it to go to Kobol? It's possible that something happened to Earth that forced us off and as a result Earth is still abandoned. There is a lack of visible orbital infrastructure around Earth in the teaser.

[Dienonychus]

MY mistake, Spanky. I hadn't seen the video in awhile but you're right. I guess the image I was thinking of came from Contact.

[Uraniun235]

Didn't Moore state that Earth is our Earth, i.e. the origin point for Humanity? In that case the big issue becomes why did people leave it to go to Kobol? It's possible that something happened to Earth that forced us off and as a result Earth is still abandoned. There is a lack of visible orbital infrastructure around Earth in the teaser.

Unless you've got a recent interview or blog posting to back you up, his position is actually totally contrary to that:

"The question I would really like to see addressed is how to reconcile the underlying quest of Battlestar Galactica with actual scientific plausiability. The quest of Battlestar Galactica is to find Earth, the 13th Colony. However, it is a basic and well-substantiated tenet of science that human life here on Earth evolved slowly from a primate ancestor. Attempts to deny evolution based on the notion that human kind deserves a far more worthy origin than what evolution details, are a diservice to the pursuit of scientific truth and endeavors in our own world. There was always that reactionary sense to the original series, which drove it away from a secure standing as *science* fiction. How will the new series avoid this pitfall?"

I don't have a direct answer for this question yet. There are a couple of notions rolling around in my head as to how we reconcile the very real fact of evolution with the Galactica mythos, but I haven't decided which approach to take. However, it was a fundamental element of the orginal Galactica mythos that "Life here began out there..." and I decided early on that it was crucial to maintain it.

[Uraniun235]

addendum: and it delights me to no end the wailing and gnashing of teeth this very position has caused others in the past. >:)

[SpacedTeddyBear]

I've always thought the centurions would find a way to rebel against the humanoid cylons. Until they boxed the Number 3s, I figured she would do it. That would probably cripple the Cylons for a bit as they struggle to control their assets. Sins of the father being passed down to the second and third generations and so on

The Earth I saw at the end of Crossroads II seemed to be a bit underdeveloped.

Actually, you just about hit it on the head......

Last week, Media Blvd. shared some tidbits about the upcoming fourth season of "Battlestar Galactica" talking about how the Centurions never evolved much because the human Cylons built in inhibitors that prevented higher brain function.Once that inhibitor is removed, the Centurions apparently open fire on the Cylon base ship.

linky

[Sidewinder]

What results is the equivalent of a Cylon civil war, or in this case, a skirmish as the battle doesn't last long enough to be a civil war.

"We're going to lose some Cylons in this battle," the source said. "And I don't mean the toasters. We're actually going to lose some of our humanoid Cylons ... as in lose permanently."

The humanoid models are split on if they should continue attacking with the Final Five in the fleet, and when a vote doesn't go the way one Cylon wants it to, the order is given to completely annihilate three models. Attacking all of them at once, and eliminating their ability to resurrect.

I had speculated the human model Cylons fought a civil war some time after they left Colonial space, that being the reason the identities of the Final Five was kept from Baltar (and the audience) until the Season 3 season finale. Now we have confirmation of this.

Anyone want to speculate which skinjobs will be permanently killed? My guesses are Aaron Doral, Leoben Conoy, and Brother Cavil.

[Darwin]

I dunno, but there better be one of these.

[Anguirus]

"Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening, struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity and in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one. The way forward at once unthinkable, yet inevitable. And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering. I can see them all. The seven, now six, self-described machines who believe themselves without sin. But in time, it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of one splintering into many. And then, they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an angel."

The Hybrid has this speech in the unrated version of Razor. Interesting stuff, no?

Anyone want to speculate which skinjobs will be permanently killed? My guesses are Aaron Doral, Leoben Conoy, and Brother Cavil.

These would be the models who are most dead-set against cooperating with humanity (well, Doral and Cavil anyway). Taking them out makes the peace scenario more likely.

I hope they don't handle the "I remove the inhibitions! I put back the inhibitions!" in a plot-device-y way, but they probably will. It makes no sense for the Cylons to build soldiers who are capable of logical thought, and then put software blocks in them to prevent logical thought! I'll be pissed if there isn't a damn good explanation for that one.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I've always thought the centurions would find a way to rebel against the humanoid cylons. Until they boxed the Number 3s, I figured she would do it. That would probably cripple the Cylons for a bit as they struggle to control their assets. Sins of the father being passed down to the second and third generations and so on

The Earth I saw at the end of Crossroads II seemed to be a bit underdeveloped.

Actually, you just about hit it on the head......

Last week, Media Blvd. shared some tidbits about the upcoming fourth season of "Battlestar Galactica" talking about how the Centurions never evolved much because the human Cylons built in inhibitors that prevented higher brain function.Once that inhibitor is removed, the Centurions apparently open fire on the Cylon base ship.

linky

I don't remember if I ever read that Sy Fy article, but I've been thinking it would be interesting if the Centurions rebelled in Season 4 ever since reading this remark for Razor over at Battlestar Wiki:

Whose decision was it to scrap the old Centurions? Did they resist?

And immediately I thought "oh man, what if..."

[Gil Hamilton]

Unless you've got a recent interview or blog posting to back you up, his position is actually totally contrary to that:

"The question I would really like to see addressed is how to reconcile the underlying quest of Battlestar Galactica with actual scientific plausiability. The quest of Battlestar Galactica is to find Earth, the 13th Colony. However, it is a basic and well-substantiated tenet of science that human life here on Earth evolved slowly from a primate ancestor. Attempts to deny evolution based on the notion that human kind deserves a far more worthy origin than what evolution details, are a diservice to the pursuit of scientific truth and endeavors in our own world. There was always that reactionary sense to the original series, which drove it away from a secure standing as *science* fiction. How will the new series avoid this pitfall?"

I don't have a direct answer for this question yet. There are a couple of notions rolling around in my head as to how we reconcile the very real fact of evolution with the Galactica mythos, but I haven't decided which approach to take. However, it was a fundamental element of the orginal Galactica mythos that "Life here began out there..." and I decided early on that it was crucial to maintain it.

The only problem with that is they proved in the show that mankinds original origin was on Earth, during the episode where they actually went to Kobol. Remember, they go into the room that turns into the field, with the stonehenge like thing set up? Above them are the constellations of the Zodiac, which Roslin notes were the original flags of the 12 colonies and where the Colonies got their name.

That demonstrates that the Twelve colonies at the point were influenced by Earth history, culture. and most importantly astronomy. The Zodiac constellations don't have a single bit of meaning without Earth as a central reference. You can't view them from anywhere else in space and they wouldn't look remotely like that. Hence, Kobol must have been settled from Earth originally for those to be in use as symbols.

Really, Moore doesn't seem to care much at all for Galactica mythos. He already said he isn't doing anything with Angels or Demons or any other sort of thinly veiled bit of Mormon theology, even those they were CENTRAL to the series. I very much doubt that they are going to arrive at 1980s Earth, even though bits and pieces of Earth broadcast (including footage of the Apollo 11 landing) were received and then they made an entire spinoff series out of it. The whole "Life here began out there..." garbage can just as easily be abandoned. They abandoned the rest of Galactica mythos, after all.

[Darwin]

Whose decision was it to scrap the old Centurions? Did they resist?

And immediately I thought "oh man, what if..."

"All this has happened before, all this will happen again."

The Bentusi don't lie. (The first hybrid was played by the guy who voiced the Bentusi in Homeworld )

[brianeyci]

I highly doubt that he gave a shit about the constellations. Might as well say that the weapons the soldiers are carrying are derivatives of Earth weapons, so they must be from Earth. Writers of science fiction do not play by the rules that visual evidence trumps all, and don't debate science fiction. If he comes out in an interview and says that Earth won't be our Earth, then that is the supreme evidence. It is not a problem at all except to fans, who will be pissed and wonder why the constellations looked like that.

Of course I could be wrong, and he could want it to be real Earth. But a visual effects scene is certainly less important evidence than what a creative director says he'll do in an interview for the purposes of determining... what he'll do.

As for what I want to happen, or what I see as an inevitable conclusion of the series; it has to be Cylon and Humans getting together. Probably something to do with the Final Five Cylons. It's rather obvious to me, foreshadowed by the Cylon-Human hybrid, and New Caprica. Earth will be the Cylon Homeworld, foreshadowed by Thrace saying "we're going the wrong way!" in the Season 4 trailer. Galactica will have to go back, and fight the Cylons, with the help of the Final Five Cylons. A virus will not be a cop out -- it will be completion of a cycle, the Cylons use a virus on the Colonials and the humans use a virus on the Cylons. Only, the virus doesn't have to disable battlestars and doesn't have to allow Galactica to destroy them. All they need is to kill the human Cylons, and the robot Cylons will follow the Final Five or even Sharon. The humans will come back to the Twelve Colonies, and Earth will be the Cylon homeworld. Then there's some hoopla about about how to prevent another Cylon uprising, and Roslin frees all the Centurions from enslavement, or maybe she doesn't, but there's some debate about what to do with the rest of the brainless/enslaved Centurions.

That is it. Finding some uber alien fleet out there that'll give some hugeass final rumble with the Cylon fleet, some aliens we've never heard of in the entire series ever is the greatest cop out, akin to Vulcans solving all of Earth's problems but a hundred times worse. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh they find some uber fleet, some Toclafane only good and they wipe out the Cylons -- how fucking lame is that? If aliens solve all of Galactica's problems, the problems being the Cylons, that's the moment I spit at the tv and swear never to watch Moore's stuff again, so I'm confident it won't happen.

[Gil Hamilton]

I highly doubt that he gave a shit about the constellations. Might as well say that the weapons the soldiers are carrying are derivatives of Earth weapons, so they must be from Earth. Writers of science fiction do not play by the rules that visual evidence trumps all, and don't debate science fiction. If he comes out in an interview and says that Earth won't be our Earth, then that is the supreme evidence. It is not a problem at all except to fans, who will be pissed and wonder why the constellations looked like that.

Except you are wrong. The supreme evidence for any show or movie is the contents of the show or movie. Writer or director commentary loses to what is actually depicted.

It's different than saying all the guys are derivatives of Earth weapons, that's alot easier to be coincidence, since it wouldn't be that crazy if they had the same requirements out of a machine and came up with a similar design. That's leagues different than them coming up with the constellations of the Zodiac without actually being from Earth, since they only make any sense when viewed from Earth, on top of the Earth cultural context. That is beyond staggeringly unlikely in terms of chance.

Of course I could be wrong, and he could want it to be real Earth. But a visual effects scene is certainly less important evidence than what a creative director says he'll do in an interview for the purposes of determining... what he'll do.

That's wrong, the visual evidence trumps what Ron Moore says outside of the show. In fact, you could take the use of the Earth constellations as a statement IN SHOW that Earth is our Earth and that humanity in their show had their origins there pre-Kobol. I'm asssume that the writers and such are not completely stupid. They have to know that the scene they made doesn't make sense in context EXCEPT if the Kobol and the Colonies were Earth descendants (not vice versa). It was a deliberate choice on their part. That trumps Ron Moore's Blog by a fair bit.

[brianeyci]

I can imagine many situations where an empire has assimilated the religion of a conquered people, and it happens in real life too. It doesn't at all prove that the people had to come from Earth, only that the religion had to come from Earth.

If all you wanted to prove is their Earth being our Earth, you could have just posted this picture:



But you said more than that: you said they had to originate from Earth, in response to a point about what Moore will do in Series Four, which hasn't even aired yet.

[Gil Hamilton]

I can imagine many situations where an empire has assimilated the religion of a conquered people, and it happens in real life too. It doesn't at all prove that the people had to come from Earth, only that the religion had to come from Earth.

If all you wanted to prove is their Earth being our Earth, you could have just posted this picture:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a362/ ... th_RDM.jpg

But you said more than that: you said they had to originate from Earth, in response to a point about what Moore will do in Series Four, which hasn't even aired yet.

You didn't read my post, did you? The fact that they are using things that could ONLY have come from Earth specifically is demonstration they came from BEFORE the Colonies came into existence demonstrates they came from Earth to first, not that Earth was settled as the 13th Colony or by the current Colonial fleet.

I'm not even sure what you are saying about an adopted religion, because it doesn't have anything to do with my argument.

And my post was in response to Uraniun's which was quoting Moore about the origins of humans in the universe.