NFL 08 Thread

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2008-01-02 09:46pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Elfdart wrote: Coaches who should be fired but won't be:

1) Brian Billick (he must have video of the Ravens' owner on To Catch A Predator or something).
Well I hate to break it to you, but Billick did get canned. The day after the Ravens' last game. High time also, because i'm sick of football commentators gobbling over how much of an offensive genius he is, when the offense could only score over 20 points if the defense was giving up 30.

Sounds like a guy cut from the same mould as Charlie Weis.

Metatwaddle · Post by **Metatwaddle** » 2008-01-03 01:08am

KhyronTheBackstabber wrote:
Discombobulated wrote:I think those two divisions sent 2 teams each to the playoffs, not three, but you make a good point.
No, they both have three going to the Playoffs.

AFC South
Colts
Jags
Titans

NFC East
Cowboys
Giants
Redskins

The Redskins made the playoffs? And my team is the only one in its division that didn't make them? Goddammit.

Well, I guess I'll be rooting for Indianapolis in the AFC and Green Bay in the NFC. Mostly, I'm just rooting for Dallas to suffer.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2008-01-03 02:43am

Patrick Degan wrote: Sounds like a guy cut from the same mould as Charlie Weis.

You could cut about forty people from Charlie Weis' mold *rimshot*.

The biggest difference between Weis and Billick? Billick got a Super Bowl as the head guy. Weis didn't win shit at UND before watching them go into a freefall, and at least the Ravens weren't quite the laughingstock the same way UND was (I mean how could you be with Atlanta and Miami in the league).

I don't think Billick deserved the axe. Mainly because his team was coming off a good season. Last year was a damn tough Raven' squad that could have beat this year's Patriots, unlike the sissies who nearly upset them on MNF before choking. Billick also helped take a team that used to be the Cleveland Browns and make them into a winner despite that, that has to count for something.

But then again firing him and bringing in a new coaching staff is a lot simpler than having him retool his own system and bring in new assistants, so I can understand completely.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-01-03 06:36am

Darth Fanboy wrote: Well I hate to break it to you, but Billick did get canned. The day after the Ravens' last game. High time also, because i'm sick of football commentators gobbling over how much of an offensive genius he is, when the offense could only score over 20 points if the defense was giving up 30.

That one surprised me. Another surprise is the way the 49ers are jerking Mike Nolan around.

There are some GMs who need to be sent to the Tower, too.

1) Matt Millen in Detroit: How does this wanker keep his job? Is he holding the owner's family hostage or something?

2) Carl Peterson in Kansas City: Let's see, you make no real attempt to bring in new talent AND make a conscious decision to junk one of the great offenses in NFL history in favor of small ball. When your team goes 4-12 because it can't score its way out of a wet paper bag with holes cut in the sides, you fire the OC, plus two other O-assistants. All I can say is, on behalf of all Charger fans: THANK YOU!

3) McKay in Atlanta: You kept Michael Vick, a convicted felon and coach-killer, and let Matt Schaub go to Houston. You hire a schmuck from Louisville as HC, even when his record is mixed at best. You just plain suck.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2008-01-03 08:47am

Darth Fanboy wrote:I don't think Billick deserved the axe. Mainly because his team was coming off a good season. Last year was a damn tough Raven' squad that could have beat this year's Patriots, unlike the sissies who nearly upset them on MNF before choking. Billick also helped take a team that used to be the Cleveland Browns and make them into a winner despite that, that has to count for something.

But then again firing him and bringing in a new coaching staff is a lot simpler than having him retool his own system and bring in new assistants, so I can understand completely.

Billick did not win that Super Bowl. Marvin Lewis and the front office did that job. So the end of his story is not nearly that sad mostly because last year's performance was followed by letting McNair get a year older with no help coming in to the O-line, no new receiver aquisitions (and Mason is good but you need a #2) and the same scheme that has the Raven's consistently ranked at the bottom of the barrel. I don't think Rex Ryan deserved to be fired as he took a pretty banged up defense that played with short fields all year and turned them into a decent unit, that said the early sign that he may have a shot at the top job seems a bit much. Anyway back to the original point Billick promised offense and for 8 years has consistently failed to deliver. Hell for that matter Troy Smith (who is a year or two from being truly ready) is the closest he can come to claiming sucess with a QB which is what this offense NEEDS. That is all before we get into all the players stating he has lost the locker room which is just a death knell and there is no coming back from that one.

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2008-01-03 03:15pm

I always got the impression Ray Lewis owned that locker room anyway. He can light a fire under the team when there's nothing to play for (look at his pre-game rally comments against the Patriots: "THIS IS OUR SUPER BOWL!") but yeah, the head coach really should have some sort of respect, even with great leadership in uniform.

I still can't believe we lost to the Chiefs in week 4 though. They crashed hard down the stretch but that probably just goes to show how badly the Chargers were playing early in the season.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-01-03 06:18pm

The 49ers now have two ideal candidates for OC: Mike Martz and Cam Cameron. Then I hear on the radio that the team is considering Chan Gailey. Niner fans beware! This fucktard will ruin an offense in no time flat. I remember what he did in Dallas, when the Cowboys' offense was an unstoppable machine (aside from certain players getting busted with hookers and cocaine, I mean). Gailey decided to change systems and had Aikman, Smith and Irvin doing all kinds of retarded things that are too numerous to mention. Like making Aikman hold the ball for 3-4 seconds and wait for the receiver to get open before throwing. This kind of thing is fine for kids playing the backyard, but in the NFL it's a way to get your quarterback killed. Aikman ended up with a spinal cord injury and a severe concussion, and called it a career.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2008-01-04 04:06am

Elfdart wrote:The 49ers now have two ideal candidates for OC: Mike Martz and Cam Cameron.

Yay!

Then I hear on the radio that the team is considering Chan Gailey.

Nooooooooo....

Niner fans beware! This fucktard will ruin an offense in no time flat. I remember what he did in Dallas, when the Cowboys' offense was an unstoppable machine (aside from certain players getting busted with hookers and cocaine, I mean). Gailey decided to change systems and had Aikman, Smith and Irvin doing all kinds of retarded things that are too numerous to mention. Like making Aikman hold the ball for 3-4 seconds and wait for the receiver to get open before throwing. This kind of thing is fine for kids playing the backyard, but in the NFL it's a way to get your quarterback killed. Aikman ended up with a spinal cord injury and a severe concussion, and called it a career.

Yeah I remember, it was great. Why? Because I'm a niner fan, I don't want him to do to us what he did to Dallas.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-01-04 07:59pm

When you change offensive schemes, you are essentially hitting the reset button for your quarterback -moreso if he's young and immature (like the ones the 49ers have). There's nothing wrong with the 49ers that couldn't be cured with (a) O-line help (b) better wideouts and (c) a competent OC. The defense looks good for a unit that can't stay off the field (thanks to offensive ineptitude).

I rip Marty Chokenheimer all the time, but he made one very good decision when he became HC of the Chargers and Norv Turner left to go to Miami: He brought in Cam Cameron, who uses the same system. That way, Drew Brees could pick up where he left off and not have to waste time learning a whole new offense.

You Niner fans had better hope Gailey isn't the one!

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2008-01-04 08:46pm

Elfdart wrote:[snip]You Niner fans had better hope Gailey isn't the one!

I'm pretty well on record saying that no offensive coordinator can salvage Alex Smith, but I am hoping that we don't go for Gailey.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-01-04 09:09pm

Quarterback, tight end, free safety and middle linebacker are all the product of coaching. That's why there are so many first-round busts at those positions (and left tackle) and so many guys who succeed who weren't drafted high (and in some cases, weren't drafted at all). I don't know if Smith is damaged goods, but if Gailey is your OC, you'll never know one way or the other.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2008-01-05 12:00am

Elfdart wrote:Quarterback, tight end, free safety and middle linebacker are all the product of coaching. That's why there are so many first-round busts at those positions (and left tackle) and so many guys who succeed who weren't drafted high (and in some cases, weren't drafted at all). I don't know if Smith is damaged goods, but if Gailey is your OC, you'll never know one way or the other.

I disagree with your assessment of these positions, actually. I don't see that the failure rate for these positions is any higher than for other positions, although they do tend to be higher-profile. For instance, I'm having trouble coming up with high-round safety busts (arguably Michael Huff) in the last few years, and other high-round safeties like Reggie Nelson, Bob Sanders, Jason Allen, and even the maligned Donte Whitner have been productive. There have been a LOT of WR and RB busts, for example.

But, more significantly, QB's have to have SOME physical talent, and I just don't see that in Smith--I still think he has weak arm strength for an NFL QB, and his footwork has been so consistently atrocious that I don't think it can be attributed to bad coaching--it didn't improve at all under Turner, either. His attitude is bad, too--NO ONE in the Niners' organization has problems with Mike Nolan... except for a certain $50 million first round idiot. He's certainly put the Niners back further than Ryan Leaf put the Chargers back.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-01-05 12:46am

Those positions rely as much (sometimes more) on the players' decision-making skills as on speed, strength and agility. Either a corner or wideout can run fast and catch or he can't. It's that simple. Either a defensive tackle is big and strong enough to beat the O-line or he isn't. Running backs are a different matter since they come and go at such a fast rate.

QB is entirely different, which is why Kurt Warner (can't run/weak arm), Tom Brady (scrawny/can't run), Trent Green (ditto), Tony Romo (ditto), Derek Anderson (long delivery), Jeff Garcia (too small/weak arm) and others have enjoyed such great success over the last several years, while 1st-rounders with all the easily measured physical skills (Kyle Boller, J.P. Losman) don't. Tight end is another position that relies as much on the player having or developing the knack for knowing how to pick apart a zone and when to break off a pattern in traffic. Again, you see Antonio Gates and Jason Witten succeed (Gates wasn't drafted at all) while so many others crash and burn.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2008-01-05 02:04am

Elfdart wrote:Those positions rely as much (sometimes more) on the players' decision-making skills as on speed, strength and agility. Either a corner or wideout can run fast and catch or he can't. It's that simple. Either a defensive tackle is big and strong enough to beat the O-line or he isn't. Running backs are a different matter since they come and go at such a fast rate.

I agree that these are the "cerebral" positions, but I don't think that makes them products of coaching and I don't think that highly-touted players at any of these positions except QB fail more regularly than other players. The position you're pointing at as a model of physical talent--DT--has seen many high-profile players come up and fail to make an impact (e.g., ARI's Alan Branch, PHI's Brodrick Bunkley), and many less-touted players succeed (Jamal Williams, Pat Williams... come to think of it, if I'm drafting a DT he'd better be named Williams). Again, I don't see that, with the exception of the QB position, the "thinking" positions see worse drafts than the ones that allegedly don't require "smarts."

QB is entirely different, which is why Kurt Warner (can't run/weak arm), Tom Brady (scrawny/can't run), Trent Green (ditto), Tony Romo (ditto), Derek Anderson (long delivery), Jeff Garcia (too small/weak arm) and others have enjoyed such great success over the last several years, while 1st-rounders with all the easily measured physical skills (Kyle Boller, J.P. Losman) don't. Tight end is another position that relies as much on the player having or developing the knack for knowing how to pick apart a zone and when to break off a pattern in traffic. Again, you see Antonio Gates and Jason Witten succeed (Gates wasn't drafted at all) while so many others crash and burn.

I'll grant you that QB is different, though I question some of those judgments (Tony Romo can't run?). A couple things that those guys you cited all have, though, that Alex Smith doesn't have:
1. They have good attitudes. All of those guys are capable of leading an offense--the other players believe in them and are confident in their abilities. Alex Smith came up as a loser and holds the dubious distinction of joining Antonio Bryant as the ONLY players ever to have a problem with Mike Nolan. Even more troubling (a coach COULD be a jerk, too), is that he has taken ZERO responsibility for his poor performance. He's blamed it all on his injuries, even though his performance pre-injury has been just as bad. Shaun Hill's performance in his games showed definitively that the Niners have enough talent, offensively, to do some damage even to proven defenses like TB, but not under Smith.

2. They're all much, much better than Alex Smith in terms of... just about everything. Fundamentals, decision making, strength, footwork, judgment and vision, they're ALL better in all of those categories than Alex Smith. If you watched the Niners' game against Atlanta, you were probably offended by Smith's horrific performance even if you had nothing whatsoever invested in that game. I say this because Smith's performance in that game was an affront to all members of the sighted community, as well as any blind or otherwise sight-challenged people who happened to be listening to the game.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2008-01-05 09:24am

Master of Ossus wrote:1. They have good attitudes. All of those guys are capable of leading an offense--the other players believe in them and are confident in their abilities. Alex Smith came up as a loser and holds the dubious distinction of joining Antonio Bryant as the ONLY players ever to have a problem with Mike Nolan. Even more troubling (a coach COULD be a jerk, too), is that he has taken ZERO responsibility for his poor performance. He's blamed it all on his injuries, even though his performance pre-injury has been just as bad. Shaun Hill's performance in his games showed definitively that the Niners have enough talent, offensively, to do some damage even to proven defenses like TB, but not under Smith.

It truly is kinda sad that Hill, a journman at best who has spent the last 5 years bouncing around practice squads could actualy make that offesne move the ball. I'm a big fan of Hill but that is mostly because he led a Maryland team that went 5-6 to a 10-1 record the next year before losing in the Orange Bowl. So basically at this point I'm all for Hill getting a shot at the job.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-01-05 11:30am

This weekend's winners:

Jaguars
Buccaneers
Redskins
Chargers

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2008-01-05 07:46pm

Don't worry about the choking sound, that's just Joe Gibbs' team.

edit: AND THE STEELERS

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2008-01-05 07:48pm

The Redskins always find a way to fuck up and lose any game.

Their pattern for the last decade or so is to rely on last minute turnarounds in the second half of a game; and when they can't do such a turnaround, they lose, like they're doing to the Seahawks.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-01-06 01:20am

When the Redskins' QB lobbed that INT, I thought: "Looks like his carriage just turned back into a pumpkin."

A game effort and nice way to salvage a terrible season by making the playoffs, but fairy tales just aren't enough.

Schuyler Colfax · Post by **Schuyler Colfax** » 2008-01-06 06:05pm

Elfdart wrote:This weekend's winners:

Jaguars
Buccaneers
Redskins
Chargers

Didn't the Giants beat the Buccaneers?

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2008-01-06 06:21pm

SPC Brungardt wrote:Don't worry about the choking sound, that's just Joe Gibbs' team.

edit: AND THE STEELERS

Seriously they had the game. All they had to do was get points off the kicoff recovery and they would be up by more than a field goal and with all the momentum going their way. Instead Colley can't haul in the pass and Suisham yoinks it left then the defense surrenders the entire field. That's a killer right there even without the small matter of the two INTs (the last of which was kinda rubbing salt in the wound but such is the right of the victors). The game came down to about two inches, if the ball is two inches tighter into Cooley's body the Skins have first and goal on the one and a half so probably a TD and an 8pt lead. Instead the Seahawks go up by 7 and the game heads towards being over.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-01-06 07:39pm

Schuyler Colfax wrote:
Elfdart wrote:This weekend's winners:

Jaguars
Buccaneers
Redskins
Chargers
Didn't the Giants beat the Buccaneers?

Screw the NFC!

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2008-01-06 07:39pm

Whatever Wilkens --

CHARGERS WIN!

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2008-01-06 09:41pm

I'm glad the Chargers won, and Rivers had a great game, except for that shitty pass that got Antonio Gates injured. I'm still pissed at that one.

Lord Relvenous · Post by **Lord Relvenous** » 2008-01-06 09:48pm

I didn't see that game, but i'm happy for the Chargers. They turned around their season big time, and deserve to go pretty far into the play-offs. Of course, I don't want them winning the Super Bowl, that honor is saved for Seattle.