Earth and Battlestar Galactica (Spoiler, just to be safe)

[brianeyci]

You didn't read my post, did you? The fact that they are using things that could ONLY have come from Earth specifically is demonstration they came from BEFORE the Colonies came into existence demonstrates they came from Earth to first, not that Earth was settled as the 13th Colony or by the current Colonial fleet.

I'm not even sure what you are saying about an adopted religion, because it doesn't have anything to do with my argument.

Sure it does. Your argument is that because of the constellations, their religious belief, they had to come from Earth and not the other way around.

Human beings came from Africa. If you looked at The Bible and concluded because of certain facts in it, they had to come from the Jerusalem area... come on man.

I can easily imagine them colonizing Earth, then a religion starting on Earth and spreading to all the colonies. Or even taking over a civilization on Earth, and that religion spreading to all over the colonies.

And my post was in response to Uraniun's which was quoting Moore about the origins of humans in the universe.

Uraniun235 was talking about what would happen in Series Four, from the man responsible for implementing Series Four, in answer to a point about the man. Then you rebuttal with conjecture. Come on man. What do you think he's talking about with the gnashing and wailing?

[FedRebel]

As we all know, the comming season of nBSG is going to be the last, which means they are going to have to rap things up rather quickly.

How ever, there is a big question that i think deeply needs to be resolved, which is as follows. When you get to Earth, how do you prevent the Cylons from taking over/nuking it to hell/whatever.

They could just end the series with the rag tag fleet jumping into Earth orbit...roll credits

In general, i can think of three rough solutions...

-The Cylons are somehow wiped out. This one is in of itself problematic, their is one battlestar against emperor knows how many basestars, planetary installations, fighters and all that shit. The only concievable way of doing this involves a cop out, some sort of anti cylon virus or artifact from the sons of Kobol or some shit like that.

...or other survivors pop up, warships of course and they along with the Galactica launch a strike against the Cylon homeworld effectively throwing the Cylons off balance and allowing the civilians to make it to Earth undetected and untracked.

-The Cylons, for some reason decide/are convinced/what-ever not to destroy earth.

After New Caprica...I don't think the Colonials would take the Cylons word for it

However, the fact remains that rapping up the show in one season is going to be a bit tricky. So how should they go about doing this?

The should end it with the Colonials ditching the Cylons in a convincing enough manner that it appears the Cylons are gone forever. Starbuck 2 has gained everyones trust and leads them to the Sol system.

The fleet jumps in behind the moon, because there is a disturbing lack of traffic and interspace communication, so they are hiding near Earth in an attempt to find out what the deal is before they attempt contact.

Then everything goes wrong, a Cylon Raider jumps in near the fleet and then jumps away, shortly afterwards Starbuck 2 rams her Viper into Colonial One.

Roll credits...with a promo for "Galactica: 2010"

[Mayabird]

I've thought from the beginning that Earth must be the original, original homeworld. Think back to Adama's speech at the end of the miniseries. He said something about the Lords of Kobol saying, "Life here began out there." If the Lords of Kobol, whatever they were, said that, they meant life began somewhere away from Kobol, thus it was not their original homeworld.

Also, the cyclic history theme. "All this has happened before, and all this will happen again." Why would the scrolls of Pythia be saying that (or something like that, I forget exactly) if Kobol was actually their homeworld? It wouldn't have happened before. Therefore, Kobol was not where humans originally came from.

Also consider: habitable worlds are very, very rare. During the course of the series the ragtag fleet has gone a few thousand light years at least (one show, they mentioned heading towards some nebula that was 5000 light years away. IIRC, that's the one they reached at the end of the third season.) They've found Kobol, New Caprica, and Algae Planet/Eye of Jupiter planet. That's it. And this thirteenth tribe just so happened to find this one random planet. Wouldn't it be quite a bit easier if they knew what they were looking for in the first place?

For that matter, how the flying frak did the other twelve tribes find out about the thirteen tribe getting to Earth, anyway? How'd all those mystic signs get to them? Maybe the thirteen tribe just said, "We're going back home. If you want to follow, here are the directions. You might want to write them down."


My time lime for their history, in general terms:
1) Humans evolve on Earth. Humans royally screw up. A remnant population of humans leave Earth.

2) Humans land on Kobol. Humans build a civilization again. Humans royally screw up. A remnant population of humans leave Kobol.
a) They may have had a dark age between landing and rebuilding their civilization where a lot of historical knowledge was lost.
b) What were the Lords of Kobol, anyway? I'm thinking some kind of artificial intelligence. *coughcough*
c) One small group says, "We're going back to Earth."

3) Humans land on the twelve colonies. Humans build a civilization again. Humans royally screw up yet again (Cylons). A remnant population of humans go fleeing from the colonies towards Earth.
a) There have been a number of hints that after landing on the colonies, humans went through a dark age. It's possible that with Earth already marginalized in importance due to whatever the frak happened on Kobol, knowledge that it was really the homeworld of humans was lost somewhere, with only broken fragments hinting at it. The problem is, you'd only realize it if you already know that Earth is the homeworld.


There was more to it, but I can't remember it all right now. If I remember it or find my old stuff where I wrote it down, I'll post it later.

[Gil Hamilton]

Sure it does. Your argument is that because of the constellations, their religious belief, they had to come from Earth and not the other way around.

It has nothing to do with their religious belief. The cultural implications of the Zodiac aside, which are DEFINITELY Hellenic (hrmm... they keep mentioning Greek gods... sounds like the original colonies were neo-pagans), what it boils down to is astronomy. Those constellations can't appear anywhere else EXCEPT from the view of our own solar system. They make sense no where else.

Human beings came from Africa. If you looked at The Bible and concluded because of certain facts in it, they had to come from the Jerusalem area... come on man.

Actually, I wouldn't conclude anything of the sort from the Bible. Aside from the fact I'm talking about astronomy and not religion, not even the Bible says that anyone started out in Jerusalem, not even the Jews.

Besides, like I said, culture is only the icing on the cake of my argument, not the cake itself.

I can easily imagine them colonizing Earth, then a religion starting on Earth and spreading to all the colonies. Or even taking over a civilization on Earth, and that religion spreading to all over the colonies.

That sounds convoluted as hell (and in the second part requires dual evolution). Even so, it STILL requires a step where Earth colonized Kobol, in order to bring the culture there. It makes alot more sense if Earth just directly colonizes Kobol, as Mayabird above outlines.

Then again, you were the person who argued that all the races in StarTrek were all different independantly evolved species that could still breed together and justified it with time travelling multidimensional aliens with a billion year old plan deliberately genetically engineering much of the galaxy in order to avoid admitting that you were wrong on the issue, so I don't expect you to be smart enough to understand my argument or to just concede the point when you can make up an endlessly twisted explanation.

Uraniun235 was talking about what would happen in Series Four, from the man responsible for implementing Series Four, in answer to a point about the man. Then you rebuttal with conjecture. Come on man. What do you think he's talking about with the gnashing and wailing?

It's not conjecture, it's fact from the show. If Moore and the gain didn't intend for the implication to be there, they wouldn't have physically represented the constellations as they did. Or even used the constellations at all. They put it in the show, not me.

Besides, his post was talking about Moore's interview.

[Battlehymn Republic]

I'm trying to decide if this will be a more disappointing revelation than Matrix Revolutions, or Lost's eventual denouement. Either way it can't be worse than the Sopranos finale.

[Beowulf]

Actually, even if you gave two gun designers identical specifications, they almost certainly won't come up with two guns that look alike, unless the specifications actually include what the gun needs to look like. Heck, I could show you two AR-15s that are barely recognizable as being the same "gun".

[Gil Hamilton]

Actually, even if you gave two gun designers identical specifications, they almost certainly won't come up with two guns that look alike, unless the specifications actually include what the gun needs to look like. Heck, I could show you two AR-15s that are barely recognizable as being the same "gun".

However, it's much more likely than Kobol happening to have identical constellations as the Earth's Zodiac by coincidence or the Kobolians happening to go to Earth, picking out the same stars, and connecting them the same way, then attaching the same cultural significance to them as we do. That's the point I'm making.

[Uraniun235]

You're probably right.

Hell, Earth will probably be lame anyway.

[Gil Hamilton]

You're probably right.

Hell, Earth will probably be lame anyway.

As long as it's not 1980s Earth and there are no time travelling Nazis, it'll be a step up.

[Starglider]

Starbuck 2 has gained everyones trust and leads them to the Sol system.

Oh BTW I presume those of you still hung up on the 'continuity flaw' (transporter = suicide LOL) are convinced that the Cylon 'downloading' process is worthless too? That the resurrected Cylon isn't the same person as the original and that they are all just kidding themselves about immortality?

If so would it make a difference to you if the humanoid cylon's 'sillica pathways' are digital (hint: if the answer is yes, you are not just confused, you are a moron)?

[Starglider]

If so would it make a difference to you if the humanoid cylon's 'sillica pathways' are digital (hint: if the answer is yes, you are not just confused, you are a moron)?

Gah, rephrased it after preview and broke it in the process. If the answer is /no/ (i.e. you think transferring a digital consciousness to a new body is /still/ death) then you are a moron.

[brianeyci]

Then again, you were the person who argued that all the races in StarTrek were all different independantly evolved species that could still breed together and justified it with time travelling multidimensional aliens with a billion year old plan deliberately genetically engineering much of the galaxy in order to avoid admitting that you were wrong on the issue, so I don't expect you to be smart enough to understand my argument or to just concede the point when you can make up an endlessly twisted explanation.

Haha fuck you! I don't even remember that, and if I did say that then it comes from the canon itself -- the Progenitors, who came out and said that they seeded the universe. Not to mention almost every species in Star Trek can have sex with each other and make babies. Doesn't that fit your criteria for completely improbable, so it proves there must have been intervention? Nevermind that you arbitrarily define what is probable and what is not... same gun design in the P90, is probable, and constellations, what amounts to artwork being the same, is improbable and it's also improbable that the 12 colonies imported the constellations from Earth, say you. Complicated? What a joke.

Whether you like it or not, it's quite common in science fiction to have coincidences happen; for example, the Yangs and Coms in Bread and Circuses who had even the same fucking Constitution! This is what happened:

Person 1: Moore said this so he'll do this is Series Four

Person 2: No, you're wrong, Moore said this more recently so he'll do this in Series Four

You: Moore is wrong about something he hasn't even made yet, which he has total creative control over, because of some scene somewhere that was probably thought up by a visual effects artist and not him. Moore also sucks.

Hahaha well fuck you. Maybe you'll go on telling Moore what he can and can't do, even after Series Four comes out. Maybe not. Gnashing of teetn and wailing indeed.

[Beowulf]

It's not that he's saying getting the same gun designs is probable, it's ridiculously improbable. It's just that ending up with those constellations is even more improbable than having the same guns.

[Uraniun235]

You're probably right.

Hell, Earth will probably be lame anyway.

As long as it's not 1980s Earth and there are no time travelling Nazis, it'll be a step up.

There's one thing worse than that, and that would be getting to Earth and having a "lol we killed ourselves off in a big nuclear war, isn't humanity dumb lol" Battlestar Livejournal ending.

Fortunately, that doesn't seem too likely.

[brianeyci]

It's not that he's saying getting the same gun designs is probable, it's ridiculously improbable. It's just that ending up with those constellations is even more improbable than having the same guns.

Okay fine. But why does he get to draw the line of where a person can use something improbable or not? Why can he say P90 is okay, but constellations are not?

If Earth was the thirteenth colony... space is vast. If Earth was the thirteenth colony, Earthers had to come back to the original colonies to lay all the fucking clues. I see no reason to accept that the colonies coming out of Earth is any more elegant a theory than Earth coming out of the colonies.

Caprica, Tauron, etc., etc., the whole Zodiac, doesn't prove shit either -- this is just translation, like everybody speaking English. I can't believe he used the names of things to try and prove something comes from Earth.

[Skylon]

As long as it's not 1980s Earth and there are no time travelling Nazis, it'll be a step up.

There's one thing worse than that, and that would be getting to Earth and having a "lol we killed ourselves off in a big nuclear war, isn't humanity dumb lol" Battlestar Livejournal ending.

Fortunately, that doesn't seem too likely.[/quote]

I think I'd only take that ending if it's a Raptor landing on a beach and finding Charlton Heston. They look up at the ruins of the Statue of Liberty and Adama just utters "Frak."

Fade to black.

In all seriousness I hope they find an Earth that has people on it. I'd be tempted to say the Earth of today, but we saw how Galactica: 1980 went, so an Earth sometime in the future would be preferable.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

They could end it Dark Tower style and have them meet Ron Moore.

[Thag]

Or, if you really want to get their hopes crushed at the last second, end it in a similar way to oBSG. But, instead of picking up a transmission of the moon landings, however, have them pick up the radio chatter from the Battle of the Line. To really put the screws in, have them catch the president's speech as the first message so their is no doubt as to what's happening.

[Sidewinder]

It'll be terribly ironic if Galactica and her crew, after surviving countless Cylon attacks, arrives at Earth only to be destroyed by the planet's defenses, e.g., a battleship crewed by humans or unmanned attack craft.

[StarshipTitanic]

Caprica, Tauron, etc., etc., the whole Zodiac, doesn't prove shit either -- this is just translation, like everybody speaking English. I can't believe he used the names of things to try and prove something comes from Earth.

That's actually transliteration. The English forms were used when the characters in the Tomb of Athena talked about the "ancient" names of the colony. I think that's an interesting detail.

When the characters were talking in the Tomb of Athena, they paraphrased from their scriptures:

The scriptures say that when the thirteenth tribe landed on Earth, they looked up into the heavens and they saw their twelve brothers.

This could mean several things, but the two ideas that immediately sprang to my mind were:

(1) Humans originated on Earth, invented constellations, colonized Kobol, the Thirteenth Tribe came back, and they saw the ancient constellations (Despite stellar drift? I don't know).

(2) Humans originated on Kobol, left to colonize other places, the Thirteenth Tribe arrived on Earth, invented constellations to correspond with the other tribes' symbols, and then came back to Kobol and left the Tomb of Athena map.

[avatarxprime]

I tried finding something a bit more concrete regarding Moore's current feelings about Earth and found this

''I took the writers on a retreat over the summer for a few days and we had lengthy discussions about Earth, what it's going to be when we get there, and what it means for the show."

So anything he said previously about Earth can all be subject to change. However I strongly agree with Mayabird with the "life began out there" issue being simply solved with Earth is "out there" when compared to Kobol and the Colonies.

Also, about the visual evidence bit

Q. Is there significance to the props used, like the Hummer and Thomson automatic on the wall of the Pegasus ready room? Is there an implication that these items evolved in a similar way to the way they have on Earth or is there something deeper to look forwards to?...

A. The props are all deliberate choices that imply more than just a passing connection between our world and the world of Galactica and there are deeper connections yet to come.

So the man himself has stated that any "hey, we have that on Earth?!" prop is there for a reason. The only time he has specifically come out to state that something is not of Earthly origin/relation is the version of "Along the Watchtower" used in the season 3 finale.

[Mayabird]

They could end it Dark Tower style and have them meet Ron Moore.

So, would that mean, to them, that they meet God? Or at least, one of the gods? Do the Cylons worship the one true god Ron whereas the Colonials include Glen Larson in their pantheon?

It would bring up some disturbing questions of free will. After all, most of their actions and even words and inflections would have been determined by their god(s). At the same time, since we know Olmos has ad libbed a few times (for instance, smashing that ship), would that mean that Adama was one of the few who had a limited amount of free will?

Would they get the Truman Show speech? "I am the Creator - of a television show..."

(1) Humans originated on Earth, invented constellations, colonized Kobol, the Thirteenth Tribe came back, and they saw the ancient constellations (Despite stellar drift? I don't know).

It depends on how long humans were sojourning on Kobol. Their cycle of history seems to be around 2000-3000 years or so. While a few constellations might get wonky in a couple thousand years, many of them could still be recognizable, especially considering how important they seem to be in their mythology. Although, I really don't know.


Also, as much as the Powers That Be may try to claim they had everything charted out from the get-go, they have admitted that they've been changing things and going in different directions as they go along. And of course there were times when they totally had to improvise, like when the guy who played Billy left the show to be a main character on another. Who knows what they originally had planned for his character? Might've had to throw a whole chunk of the mythos out.

[Uraniun235]

Did I miss an interview? I could swear I'd heard that neoBSG had definitely not been planned out in detail from the beginning, and that they only had a vague idea of how they wanted the series to begin, progress, and end.