So Human?

[Junghalli]

So a solitary hunter species may develop a high degree of intelligence, but will just never get around to developing any sort of useful scientific thinking?

The problem with a solitary creature is that anything it learned dies with it. Without an effective way of transmitting knowledge each generation has to basically start the technological and intellectual development of the species over from scratch. Not to mention forget about any project that requires the skills and muscle of more than one individual, like building a monument ... or a starship.

[Elfdart]

The more I think about it, the more I've concluded that the only plausible (in sci-fi terms) explanation would be that an alien species somehow deposited humans on distant worlds tens or hundreds of thousands of years earlier.

[Darth Ruinus]

I think the simplest explanation, would be that the humanoid form is the best form around.

Since it requires less funky theories, and that is good right?

[Junghalli]

I think the simplest explanation, would be that the humanoid form is the best form around.
Since it requires less funky theories, and that is good right?

If you're talking about something with two arms, two legs, give or take a tail but otherwise not very human-looking you can explain it by convergent evolution, like dolphins and ichthyosaurs. But most humanoid aliens in pop SF are much too close to humanity to be explained that way.

[Darth Ruinus]

I think the simplest explanation, would be that the humanoid form is the best form around.
Since it requires less funky theories, and that is good right?

If you're talking about something with two arms, two legs, give or take a tail but otherwise not very human-looking you can explain it by convergent evolution, like dolphins and ichthyosaurs. But most humanoid aliens in pop SF are much too close to humanity to be explained that way.

Mmh, whats the next best simplest answer then? Alien seeding programs? Pure luck?

[Darth Smiley]

I think the simplest explanation, would be that the humanoid form is the best form around.

Since it requires less funky theories, and that is good right?

The basic idea behind that is the Principle of Parsimony, which is well explained here

Basically, NO. Convergent evolution also requires very similar starting environments, something that is even more improbable.

Mmh, whats the next best simplest answer then? Alien seeding programs? Pure luck?

The best method is to NOT have lots of human-like aliens around. It's really easy, actually, just make the 'aliens' humans that have been in separate environments for a few millenniums, or have been genetically altered to suit their environment.

If human-like aliens are really, really, really needed, than alien seeding program + thousands of years of natural selection in widely varying conditions is really the only option. But remember, Earth HAS to be the source - too much evidence for human evolution on earth for it to be otherwise.

[Junghalli]

Mmh, whats the next best simplest answer then? Alien seeding programs? Pure luck?

Probably some kind of artificial intervention. No way something like, say, Humans, Minbari, and Dilgar could have evolved the way they did by coincidence.

Basically, NO. Convergent evolution also requires very similar starting environments, something that is even more improbable.

In the case of an erect biped alien the "similar environment" would be tetrapodism and the need for hands to hold tools it the species is to become a sophisticated tool user. Although a stance like a sauropod dinosaur would work for this as well, and there are imaginable alternatives for hands (such as an elephant's trunk).

[defanatic]

The badguys in the first few seasons of stargate were weird worm things. Their explanation for having humans everywhere is these weird worm things enslaved lots of people, and dumped them all over the place in an abnormally habitable galaxy.

[Ford Prefect]

The badguys in the first few seasons of stargate were weird worm things. Their explanation for having humans everywhere is these weird worm things enslaved lots of people, and dumped them all over the place in an abnormally habitable galaxy.

It's not abnormally habitable, given we see maybe dozens of earth-like worlds, perhaps even hundreds, out of hundreds of billions. They look abnormally like Canada, yes, but that's a problem in and of itself, and has nothing to do with quantity.

[Mayabird]

What was interesting during my studies (literature, not actual research) of animal intelligence is that quite a large number of animals can reach a stage, after much training, where they can approximate many of the activities a human three to four year old can do. Great apes, dolphins, parrots, elephants can reach this level, and many other animals have lesser degrees of still rather impressive intelligence, like other primates, corvids, and octupi. It's almost like creatures hit this barrier and don't go farther. Or maybe they didn't get just the right combination of luck and selective pressure. At any rate, you can get to some level of intelligence through a variety of methods.

As to why there are so many hominids in science fiction, I think it's a combination of 1) budget and 2) sheer laziness. Easier to think of green Martian men coming to steal our women than how a flightless intelligent parrot species would be behaving.

[Anguirus]

As to why there are so many hominids in science fiction, I think it's a combination of 1) budget and 2) sheer laziness. Easier to think of green Martian men coming to steal our women than how a flightless intelligent parrot species would be behaving.

There is also the understandable difficulty in getting those flightless parrots to act.

[Uraniun235]

There are a lot of story concepts that would be potentially quite fascinating for a book, but utterly excruciating to sit through in a movie theater. Going through a whole song-and-dance about trying to work out communication with an alien species we share very little in common with is probably one of those concepts.

And, frankly, marketability is a significant concern. Some people might be willing to geek out on seeing some sci-fi hack try to convey "the utter inscrutability of this waddling schlorbian" on the movie screen, but how well is that going to sell to the public in general? People tend to want characters they can relate to in some capacity.

[Junghalli]

Well, I don't think an alien has to look like a human with a funny forehead for the audience to relate to it. The aliens in Enemy Mine were fairly easy to relate to despite looking distinctly inhuman (granted, they were still sort-of humanoid). Though it does force the director and actors to work harder.

I think it's mostly just cost issues. Imagine if they'd replaced Spock and Worf with realistic-looking aliens: Leonard Nemoy and Michael Dorn would have had to waddle around on stage in some weird rubber costume the entire show. That isn't easy or cheap to do.

[Anguirus]

Imagine if they'd replaced Spock and Worf with realistic-looking aliens: Leonard Nemoy and Michael Dorn would have had to waddle around on stage in some weird rubber costume the entire show. That isn't easy or cheap to do.

It would also certainly have resulted in less compelling performances.

Imagine if Londo and G'Kar from Babylon 5 were buried under latex.

[Netko]

Imagine if they'd replaced Spock and Worf with realistic-looking aliens: Leonard Nemoy and Michael Dorn would have had to waddle around on stage in some weird rubber costume the entire show. That isn't easy or cheap to do.

It would also certainly have resulted in less compelling performances.

Imagine if Londo and G'Kar from Babylon 5 were buried under latex.

Funny you should mention that - G'Kar pretty much was buried under latex - hence the extreme gesticulating, which, of course, worked.

[Zixinus]

The badguys in the first few seasons of stargate were weird worm things. Their explanation for having humans everywhere is these weird worm things enslaved lots of people, and dumped them all over the place in an abnormally habitable galaxy.

The galaxy isn't that habitable. The badguys did some terraforming.

[Anguirus]

Funny you should mention that - G'Kar pretty much was buried under latex - hence the extreme gesticulating, which, of course, worked.

Notice which areas of his face are largely uncovered. Makeup, yes, but nothing's actually built over it.

It is patently false to say that Katsulas' performance relied on "gesticulation."

[Nyrath]

Funny you should mention that - G'Kar pretty much was buried under latex - hence the extreme gesticulating, which, of course, worked.

Notice which areas of his face are largely uncovered. Makeup, yes, but nothing's actually built over it.

It is patently false to say that Katsulas' performance relied on "gesticulation."

Actually, the way it was explained to me was that [a] yes, his face was totally covered with latex, but it was done in some ground-breaking revolutionary way so that the subtle play of facial muscles would still show through.

Katsulas' performance relied upon facial expression.

[Gustav32Vasa]

The badguys in the first few seasons of stargate were weird worm things. Their explanation for having humans everywhere is these weird worm things enslaved lots of people, and dumped them all over the place in an abnormally habitable galaxy.

The galaxy isn't that habitable. The badguys did some terraforming.

The Ancients are the bad guys?

[Cykeisme]

A lot of fascinating stuff in this thread here.

This is nowhere near as interesting, but I was wondering, how implausible is flora with similar appearance? Granted, the very division of "flora" and "fauna" is probably something that might be exclusive to the development of life on Earth.
Basically, we see a lot of sci-fi planets that have plant (or plant-approximate) life that appears close to Earth's. Is this unrealistic?

In Star Wars, I expect Felucia might be more plausible than Endor.. thoughts?

[Junghalli]

This is nowhere near as interesting, but I was wondering, how implausible is flora with similar appearance? Granted, the very division of "flora" and "fauna" is probably something that might be exclusive to the development of life on Earth.
Basically, we see a lot of sci-fi planets that have plant (or plant-approximate) life that appears close to Earth's. Is this unrealistic?

Well, I think the general appearance of trees being similar is not unrealistic. Trees need a stiff trunk and they need to optimize their photosynthetic surface area. So the general plan (a trunk with flat photosynthetic surfaces coming out) is probably going to be found on most planets. Prehistoric tree ferns came out of a totally different evolutionary lineage from modern trees, but they still looked a lot like palms. Branches are a good way of maximizing photosynthetic surface area, so they'd probably also evolve on a lot of planets.

Though I do question the realism of alien forests all over the galaxy looking visually indistinguishable from the Canadian backwoods. Actually it's rather interesting to think about what the forests of different worlds might look like. A planet with a highly elleptical orbit might have deciduous tropical forests. A windy fast-rotating world would have trees growing low to the ground, with pine-like needles even in hot climates to minimize drying effects from the wind.

[Cykeisme]

Ah, I guess that's logical. Interesting.

Is production off chlorophyll likely to evolve convergently on other worlds?
Actually, my knowledge of botany, much less paleobotany, doesn't extend beyond the words "Plants have been around, yeah".

For that matter, has chlorophyll independently developed more than once on Earth?

[Elfdart]

Just think about the way species were dumped all over the globe here on Earth. You have humans, dogs, cats, pigs, and other animals; as well as plants of all kinds being deliberately moved from one continent to another. You also have rats, mice and other creature inadvertently spread across the globe. So it's no great stretch of the imagination to think of not only people, but dogs, ducks, rats and falcons (like the GFFA) being stowaways in some advanced being's cargo hold, then running amok in their new habitats.

[Nyrath]

Is production off chlorophyll likely to evolve convergently on other worlds?

Form follows function.

But there are wild cards like the non-oxygen purple photosynthesis that was the precursor to today's oxygen green photosynthesis.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articl ... 9EC588ED9F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis#Evolution

[Zixinus]

The Ancients are the bad guys?

I'm only at season two of SG-1. Did the Ancients transfer humans all over the galaxy? I thought it was the Goa'uld.