Mortal Kombat vs Jedi/Sith

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-18 07:58pm

Darth_Shinji wrote: Its offical till disproven by the movies. And isn't already shown that mind control can be resisted? Why not tk?

Leap of logic...literally you are presuming that TK can be resisted even though it's never been shown...once.

No If you block it it doesn't do damage... So DV still has to block or be frozen. And you are telling me that there isn't anything weird going on with those blocks? Like blocking sonic attacks? Its definatly chi or something.

And why block when dodging is better?

And still no MK fighter has been shown with half of what Jedi could do in combat...in terms of pre-cog or the fact if a lightsaber comes crashing down upon them.

Can you provide one scene.. evn if its in the EU when a sith or darksider snapes two guys necks at the same time without the long agony scene?

I see when it doesn't fit that "Because Vader never did...he must be never able to!!!"

Yeah Vader is incapable of killing quickly because all he's been shown is slow death even though he has shown to have enough TK control and power to kill a person in a second.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-18 08:00pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:Even if its slim its still accurate.
No, it isn't. Gameplay rules are not considered part of the continuity. They are designed for playability, not accuracy.
Its offical till disproven by the movies. And isn't already shown that mind control can be resisted? Why not tk?

I have already explained that there is a mundane physical explanation for the ability of non-Force users to resist TK; simply push against it the old fashioned way: with muscle. But against a powerful TK'er, it doesn't matter. Vader can rip heavy equipment out of the walls and snap bolt-heads with ease; neck muscle-power is useless against that.

You are assuming, without a shred of evidence, that the ability to resist TK must imply some kind of magical anti-TK power rather than simply pushing against it with your physical muscles. Does the term "leap in logic" mean anything at all to you? Or would you prefer to continue being a jack-ass?

There posted in offical martail and people use them to demonstrate force powers on your side before. I suggest you post the fact that these powers are inadmissable then to everyone.

As I said before, gameplay rules are designed for playability, not accuracy. According to gameplay rules, all strengths of all characters and even technologies in all situations are based on random dice rolls; perhaps you failed to notice that this bears no resemblance to events in the films.

So your flaming is supossed to do this? lol! I think it has more to do for your own sake then mine.

It's because you deserve it, idiot.

Can you provide one scene.. evn if its in the EU when a sith or darksider snapes two guys necks at the same time without the long agony scene?

I can provide the tensile strength of a fucking bolt, which indicates that Vader's ability to effortlessly snap it is more than enough power to crush a human's neck before he can say "uncle". I can also point to the acceleration of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in TPM, which required (again) more than enough force to crush a human's neck. Is your brain too feeble to recognize that if you're powerful enough to apply 50 kN of force with a thought, you're powerful enough to break somebody's neck?

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-18 08:08pm

About this Force-snapping thing:

I think we'll have to go with Jedi/Sith being able to snap people's necks since it's shown that Dooku can easily Force-throw Anakin several meters. Since Obi-win and Qui-Gon have been show to be able to throw droids with less distance, we'd have to assume that the distance difference between their throwing droids and Dooku throwing Anakin would simply be strength in the force, which Dooku has more than Obi-wan and Anakin (which could translate as Obi-wan plus Qui-gon).

In that way, since Jedi/Sith can throw humans through the force, it could be assumed that they can snap necks too. I think.

Just wanted to add that to help settle this particular part of the debate.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-01-18 09:05pm

I conceed Darth Wong for know. But I don't agree with your asment of the forces tk abilities. Mainly becuase you are basically saying that the force reacts to all the situations the same way. And we know that the force does not. If force tk acts like a phyisical force all the time then why can a being be immune to it? It wouldn't matter say for yssmili or the voung that they were immune. Enough of the force backing the attack should be able to overload the effects, but they can't to my knowledge. But I'm conceeding till I have a good enought thoery on how the force tk works to debate jedi. ATOC realy put holes in my first one. Plus Shinova wants this to stop.

But feel free to flame me Wong. It doesn't reflect back on me. So its not insulting. To be honest i too flame when people flame me. But I respected you and the fact that this was your forum. But thats changing. But don't expect many people to enjoy debating you if all you do is flame. Most people wait till everything starts getting hot under the collar and everyones in the wrong. Starting debates with flames only degrads your character.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-18 09:11pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:I conceed Darth Wong for know. But I don't agree with your asment of the forces tk abilities. Mainly becuase you are basically saying that the force reacts to all the situations the same way. And we know that the force does not. If force tk acts like a phyisical force all the time then why can a being be immune to it?

If it does not apply force, explain the bolts snapping. Idiotic novel writer plot devices do not override such simple concepts as the fact that some method of force application is required in order to fracture metal.

It wouldn't matter say for yssmili or the voung that they were immune. Enough of the force backing the attack should be able to overload the effects, but they can't to my knowledge. But I'm conceeding till I have a good enought thoery on how the force tk works to debate jedi. ATOC realy put holes in my first one. Plus Shinova wants this to stop.

Official material is only valid until it either contradicted by canon or demonstrates some appalling breach of physics which the canon does not.

But feel free to flame me Wong. It doesn't reflect back on me. So its not insulting. To be honest i too flame when people flame me. But I respected you and the fact that this was your forum. But thats changing.

Oooooh, more of your self-righteous speeches. You have consistently failed to conduct yourself in an honest manner, distorting and misrepresenting evidence. Your deplorable many-page insistence on a bulletproof Predator cloak and your asinine belief that we had to disprove its existence for you was more than enough to show that you simply do not debate honestly or intelligently.

But don't expect many people to enjoy debating you if all you do is flame.

Strawman. I am perfectly capable of debating without flames, but I see no reason to do when the other person is either stupid or dishonest.

Most people wait till everything starts getting hot under the collar and everyones in the wrong. Starting debates with flames only degrads your character.

Why? Are superficial manners more important than honesty? I guess they are for you, aren't they?

But please, feel free to continue your sanctimonious whining.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-01-18 09:51pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:I conceed Darth Wong for know. But I don't agree with your asment of the forces tk abilities. Mainly becuase you are basically saying that the force reacts to all the situations the same way. And we know that the force does not. If force tk acts like a phyisical force all the time then why can a being be immune to it?
If it does not apply force, explain the bolts snapping. Idiotic novel writer plot devices do not override such simple concepts as the fact that some method of force application is required in order to fracture metal.
But the problem is: Does the force do it though actaully force application or
technobabble? And we know that life forms react diffently to the force than inorganic materals do. The writers provide that fact.
It wouldn't matter say for yssmili or the voung that they were immune. Enough of the force backing the attack should be able to overload the effects, but they can't to my knowledge. But I'm conceeding till I have a good enought thoery on how the force tk works to debate jedi. ATOC realy put holes in my first one. Plus Shinova wants this to stop.
Official material is only valid until it either contradicted by canon or demonstrates some appalling breach of physics which the canon does not.
The force already breaks CoE in the movies. I don't see how the movies contradict force immune creatures inplictly.

Oooooh, more of your self-righteous speeches. You have consistently failed to conduct yourself in an honest manner, distorting and misrepresenting evidence. Your deplorable many-page insistence on a bulletproof Predator cloak and your asinine belief that we had to disprove its existence for you was more than enough to show that you simply do not debate honestly or intelligently.
I never claimed to be self-rightous or mean to act like I was. You coinsdier me an idiot for the claok so you want to flame me in everything now is that it? And its not as if anyone disproved my logic. Only addition facts were brought to my attention.
But don't expect many people to enjoy debating you if all you do is flame.
Strawman. I am perfectly capable of debating without flames, but I see no reason to do when the other person is either stupid or dishonest.
And flames help stop stupididty and dishonesty how?
Why? Are superficial manners more important than honesty? I guess they are for you, aren't they?

And your flames help honesty? Bullshit. All they do is distract from the debate at hand as they are doing know. You think if I was purposly lying your flames would correct me?

Now who is spotting idiotcy?

But please, feel free to continue your sanctimonious whining.

Look, I make mistakes. I do confuse facts and forget stuff. As long as you know I'm being honest about and am not a person who does it intentionaly. I've tried to talk to you about it once already with the whole cloak thing which you ingnored. Your flames have nothing to do with me or my actions anymore. Mearly your own enjoyment. Remember that.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-18 11:19pm

Since Shinji likes game mechanics, like debate according to them, shall we?

Let's see. Darth Vader's Force is normally rated at about 9D for Alter(ANH sourcebook). With this stat, he can use Injure/Kill on three people every round, guaranteed slaying every time unless they are a powerful Jedi Knight or minor Sith.

Or he could go with TK Kill, which will slay even more, since he doesn't have to beat the defender's rolls by such a large margin.

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2003-01-19 12:39am

Actually, the Force *can* be used indirectly on the Vong. In "Conquest", Tahiri almost kills a roomfull of Yuuzhan Vong by increasing the air pressure so greatly that they can't draw in breath. Slower than simply snapping their necks, but equally effective in the right circumstances.

Additionally, in another NJO novel, Anakin force-pushes a group of Yuuzhan Vong through the Vong-crystal in his lightsaber.

Keep in mind that the reason we don't see Jedi going around force-smacking people down constantly is because, for Jedi, using the Force to kill is a quick trip to the Dark Side, and they're all paranoid as hell about it, so no throwing someone across the room using the Force when they might break their necks upon impact.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-01-19 01:01am

Kerneth wrote:Actually, the Force *can* be used indirectly on the Vong. In "Conquest", Tahiri almost kills a roomfull of Yuuzhan Vong by increasing the air pressure so greatly that they can't draw in breath. Slower than simply snapping their necks, but equally effective in the right circumstances.

Additionally, in another NJO novel, Anakin force-pushes a group of Yuuzhan Vong through the Vong-crystal in his lightsaber.

Thats indirectly affecting them (Except I don't know what is a vong cystal). The difference is that a pure kinteic force would be able to break though any resistance and kill the vong depending on the power. Its like turbo lasers versus shields. A stronger sheild would stop a tl. Make the tl stronger than the sheild and the sheild collapses. Not so with vong resistance. And the Yassimli is worse.

Keep in mind that the reason we don't see Jedi going around force-smacking people down constantly is because, for Jedi, using the Force to kill is a quick trip to the Dark Side, and they're all paranoid as hell about it, so no throwing someone across the room using the Force when they might break their necks upon impact.

There are plenty of Dark Siders that are in the eu that never go around snapping necks in gruops or really fast. They almost always go thru lightsabers. Or someother effect.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-19 01:19am

I see once again...because I haven't seen it done...it can't be done.

Are you going to refute or put your hands on your ears and pretend it doesn't exist?

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-01-19 10:04am

Ghost Rider wrote:I see once again...because I haven't seen it done...it can't be done.

Are you going to refute or put your hands on your ears and pretend it doesn't exist?

lol! Thats too cool! I love that pure unadultrated hypocispy! I should of said that too you in the cloak thing. Say it ghostrider: LaLaLa I can't hear you, LaLaLa I can't hear you.

That was the funniest hypcritical blunder I have ever read in my entire life. Thanks GR.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-01-19 10:07am

SirNitram wrote:Since Shinji likes game mechanics, like debate according to them, shall we?

Let's see. Darth Vader's Force is normally rated at about 9D for Alter(ANH sourcebook). With this stat, he can use Injure/Kill on three people every round, guaranteed slaying every time unless they are a powerful Jedi Knight or minor Sith.

Or he could go with TK Kill, which will slay even more, since he doesn't have to beat the defender's rolls by such a large margin.

Well, we all make mistakes. Alwell. Conceed this.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-01-19 10:16am

Darth_Shinji wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:I see once again...because I haven't seen it done...it can't be done.

Are you going to refute or put your hands on your ears and pretend it doesn't exist?
lol! Thats too cool! I love that pure unadultrated hypocispy! I should of said that too you in the cloak thing. Say it ghostrider: LaLaLa I can't hear you, LaLaLa I can't hear you.

That was the funniest hypcritical blunder I have ever read in my entire life. Thanks GR.

You're a fucking idiot. There is a huge difference between saying "we've never seen anything remotely like what you're suggesting" and saying "I've seen your car doing 50 km/h in winter but not summer, so it can't do 50 km/h in summer". We have demonstrated that the capability exists; you must explain why you think it should not apply in this particular case.

Fucking asshole; this is the kind of bullshit that has led me to be utterly contemptuous of your methods, and you are simply too much of a prick to admit it.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-01-19 10:40am

AdmiralKanos wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:I see once again...because I haven't seen it done...it can't be done.

Are you going to refute or put your hands on your ears and pretend it doesn't exist?
lol! Thats too cool! I love that pure unadultrated hypocispy! I should of said that too you in the cloak thing. Say it ghostrider: LaLaLa I can't hear you, LaLaLa I can't hear you.

That was the funniest hypcritical blunder I have ever read in my entire life. Thanks GR.
You're a fucking idiot. There is a huge difference between saying "we've never seen anything remotely like what you're suggesting" and saying "I've seen your car doing 50 km/h in winter but not summer, so it can't do 50 km/h in summer". We have demonstrated that the capability exists; you must explain why you think it should not apply in this particular case.

Fucking asshole; this is the kind of bullshit that has led me to be utterly contemptuous of your methods, and you are simply too much of a prick to admit it.

Go back and reply then. I spent all that time and fucking effort describing the scene and asking people to check for themselves. And the poeple like GR ingnore me replies then come sneaking back later posting to something else I've said while ingnoring what I posted to them or flaming me becuase I don't own and couldn't rent the damn dvd. If I had a dime for every person who posted the scene from Pred 1 without replying to my rebuttal or not bothering to check the fact that I've posted on it before. I would be fucking rich.

And my opion of you is alot worse. I take it you didn't read any of the damn thread?

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-01-19 10:43am

Darth_Shinji wrote:And my opion of you is alot worse. I take it you didn't read any of the damn thread?

I read the thread. You saw one thing, others saw something different. They challenged you to provide proof. You said no. Hardly something to be proud of.

And I don't particularly care what you think of me, since you have shown yourself to be an idiot who refuses to recognize the very CONCEPT of the burden of proof fallacy.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-19 11:02am

Sadly you could try getting your facts persay straight...I mean if you're going to lie...try keeping them in order...once they start falling apart, you look even dumber.

1. It's Pred 2...calm down and remember your own bizarre statment(even though even pro-Predator People have yet to make the claim.) about the bullet-proof cloak. Sorry only you have agreed with this...and until you provide proof, no one is going to take your word for it...you understand the whole Burden of Proof fallacy?

2. Glad to make you laugh at your own ignorance...it's good to see people can look in a mirror, because literally all you've done is scream because Vader never did it, it can't be done even though there is plenty of evidence to show it...this isn't Wide Spread Phaser setting sixteen.

3. Try to make an arguement of why MK would win...since you're just screaming at Vader and saying they can tag team him. Literally all you have done is nit-pick and scream at Vader's powers and given nothing for MK people. Strange that you would take a side and provide nothing for a defense aside from "Nu-UH...the Pro Sith/Jedi side is making stuff up!!!"

Nice to see you're soon inclined to show Wong up that you can't even defend your own group. I mean your feeble 'they'll freeze or spear Vader(even though both can be avoided)' was hardly worth the effort to disprove.

So are you going to make any points...or are you going to continue your own personal brand of ignorance and scream and wail because we show why Vader would win and the proof behind it?

Dillon · Post by **Dillon** » 2003-01-19 01:06pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:
observer_20000 wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:He never exhibted that ability in the movies. And for all thier tk against inanimate objects We never see them tk an living being of a mans size. Not even when it would be helpful in the EU. And how TK is surpose to stop a energy blast.
Did you watch the fucking movies? In TESB on cloud city while fighting Luke, Vader rips pieces of metal equipment out of the walls and smashes them into Luke I'm sure those weighed at least 100 - 200 LBs more than the mass of any average human, and he did it effortlessly. And why do you assume Sub-Zero's ice blast is an energy blast? Wouldn't it be more likely that he just freezes the air around him into a ball, and launches it at his opponenet? In that case it would be very easy to dodge. Even if it is energy, look at how slow it moved, Vader is precognitive, so he can easily dodge it.
A) Those things didn't appear to be that heavy but I'll conceed that point, and you just stated they might not of been multi-ton. Also we have seen subzeros blasts in the movie. and they are definatly energy. And in deadly allaince he freezes people without the ball. Making an arua that freezes.

I don't see how that makes it energy, but that doesn't really matter anyway.

And why is tk not used as much as it should be against living things if it works like this? Obi-wan could of easly immbolized Jango or the other Jedi push Jango out of the way. How about in the EU? I don't think even vader does anything with the speed and quickness you claim. Though I could be wrong. But I don't remember any Jedi or Sith doind that.

Thoes metal pieces could have been in the ton range, but all I needed was for you to conceed that they weighed as much as an average person, so that's all I stated. Also you're forgetting that these pieces were BOLTED on to a metal wall so ripping them off would have required strength in the ton range. And don't you remember how it was stated several fucking times that the jedi were losing their ability to use the force in AOTC? In TPM Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan used telekinesis on battle droids several times, and in the scene where they were confronted by the droiddekas and ran away, they used used force speed. Maybe you should try watching the fucking movies.

Darth_Shinji wrote:
observer_20000 wrote:As for your claim on Scorpion's teleportation, again, Vader is precogntive, so he turns in the direction of wherever Scorpion teleports, and quickly snaps Scorpion's neck before he has a chance to react. Scorpion can obviously be killed by normal means. Look at the movie, Jonny Cage killed him with a spear and shield with jagged edges.
Precog works like a secound into the future. He might be able to be moving towards scorp but I doubt he can do anything before he ports again. And according to the game all a spear wouldn't stop Scorpy or anyone in MK for that matter.

Let's assume Vader's precog is only about a second into the future, even though forceusers, several times throughout the movie saw hours into the future. I wasn't aware it took people more than 1 second to simply turn in another direction. Again, Scorpion teleports, like anyone, it would take vader only a second to spin in the dirction to face someone, and he quickly snaps scorpion's neck. As for your claims that characters are tougher in the game. Using game stats for evidence is a dumb idea, those stats are made so the game will be fun to play, that is why all the characters (except for bosses) are all the same strength, and why all fireballs do the same amount of damage. It is pretty obvious that the movies are best form of evidence for character's strengths.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-01-19 05:14pm

AdmiralKanos wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:And my opion of you is alot worse. I take it you didn't read any of the damn thread?
I read the thread. You saw one thing, others saw something different. They challenged you to provide proof. You said no. Hardly something to be proud of.

And I don't particularly care what you think of me, since you have shown yourself to be an idiot who refuses to recognize the very CONCEPT of the burden of proof fallacy.

Oh I reconized it alright. People asked me for prove, I couldn't provide it but stood by it. They flamed me becuase I wouldn't concede the point, and got mad at them becuase they themselves provided rebutals to it but didn't post evidence against it.then I even applogized to DW about it. Saying it was an honest mistake and I was even willing to let it go if he wanted me too. He never replied to that point, and ingnored it. You did catch all that in the fett thread? Its there. I even agreeded it was more likly the preds skin. But that scene exisits and I'm not willing to back down on that point. I even said my evidence was there just that my conclution is wrong.

In the end I considered the whole point a way of attacking the point indirectly thinking I was willing to let the matter drop becuase I did make a mistake based on other peoples actions if someone reponded to that post. But didn't and countinue to flame me unintelligently.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-20 12:38am

I see the ignorance of not providing evidence is now holding one's ground.

Keep going.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-20 12:50am

Darth_Shinji wrote:Oh I reconized it alright. People asked me for prove, I couldn't provide it but stood by it.

Precisely. You did NOT recognize that the burden of proof fallacy is a fallacy.

They flamed me becuase I wouldn't concede the point, and got mad at them becuase they themselves provided rebutals to it but didn't post evidence against it.then I even applogized to DW about it. Saying it was an honest mistake and I was even willing to let it go if he wanted me too. He never replied to that point, and ingnored it. You did catch all that in the fett thread? Its there. I even agreeded it was more likly the preds skin. But that scene exisits and I'm not willing to back down on that point. I even said my evidence was there just that my conclution is wrong.

A concession in which you insist that you're still right is not a concession. I don't know what you've got next to "concession" in your dictionary, but that ain't it.

In the end I considered the whole point a way of attacking the point indirectly thinking I was willing to let the matter drop becuase I did make a mistake based on other peoples actions if someone reponded to that post. But didn't and countinue to flame me unintelligently.

It is hardly "unintelligent" to flame someone for refusing to admit that the burden of proof fallacy is, in fact, a fallacy, or insisting that he's right about something nobody else can see, without providing a shred of evidence. You may think it's rude, but that's just too fucking bad.