B5 - Would you convict Delenn of War Crimes?

[Skylon]

I don't see what people are complaining about regarding the ending of the war. The Minbari idea of reincarnation is questionable at best.

Sinclair has Valen's 'soul' because he is Valen, not because he's a reincarnation. This was, however, a misconception that the Vorlons found convinient.

I could swear that they used the magic triangle on a few other captured humans and got reactions out of them as well.

As I understood it the Triluminary reacted based on DNA...maybe humans with similar genetic traits to Sinclair? Or would it just light up for any human?

[Nephtys]

Where did it say the weapons were active? All I remember is gun ports open. The architecture of their ship was so alien, so different, how the fuck did the EA captain know their weapons weren't fixed wing and exposed by default?

I've always found it odd that more people didn't notice that discrepancy, especially since it was a first contact situation.

Minbari sensors also happened to be powerful enough to jam the EA ship's jump drives. They mentioned that pretty specifically during the prequel movie.

If my only way of escape appears to be actively scrambled, while the enemy has weapons that 'appear' hot, I'd think it looked a lot like an attack.

[Anguirus]

She quite loudly and emotionally demanded "kill them all!" while crying over her dead boyfriend Dukat.

From that point on the Minbari waged a war of extermination on every human they came across.

And hours later, she recanted.

Does it actually escape you that despite her extremely emotional reaction to her mentor's death, she only ordered a strike against the attacking fleet's staging area? Her action is little different from when she bitch-slapped the Drakh in Season 4.

[NecronLord]

I could swear that they used the magic triangle on a few other captured humans and got reactions out of them as well.

The Vorlons wanted them to stop the war. And they made the damn thing. It doesn't need any mumbo jumbo - the Vorlons, after hearing Valen's account of the Minbari war, just set it to glow when you hold it up to a human too.

[Anguirus]

^ Actually, it does indeed glow when held up to any Minbari with human DNA, including pre-chrysalis Delenn. However, it apparently does more than glow, as it informed the Grey Council that Sinclair = Valen.

The Vorlons may have messed with the device at some point, but it's not a Vorlon device. It's from Epsilon III.

[NecronLord]

She quite loudly and emotionally demanded "kill them all!" while crying over her dead boyfriend Dukat.

"He was the best of us! They struck without provocation! There was no reason! Animals! Brutal! They deserve no mercy. Strike them down. Follow them back to their base and kill them all! Dead! All dead! No mercy!"

I would interpret that as an order to attack the military base that launched Prometheus, and kill everyone there. She did not say 'destroy all of them everywhere' even in anger.

From that point on the Minbari waged a war of extermination on every human they came across.

What precise warcrime would you charge her of? Genocide? Killing two hundred and fifty thouasnd people, in military bases and facilities, is hardly that.

The Minbari committed two warcrimes: torture of prisoners (something we know, incidentally, that Earth did to them, probably in far greater numbers, given that random hobos in the Nightwatch claim to have done it before, but the Minbari only did it expressly on the orders of the Grey Council. Which incidentally, makes them considerably less likely than any human polity ever to torture people) and the destruction of vessels and troops attempting to surrender to them. I'm not sure if that second one is actually considered a war crime, but it probably should be.

While we know that they planned to destroy humanity, they didn't. It's a flaw of their executive system that they needed Vorlon interventionism to ensure that they didn't commit genocide, but regardless of that, they err, didn't.

[NecronLord]

The Vorlons may have messed with the device at some point, but it's not a Vorlon device. It's from Epsilon III.

Indeed. I was thinking more of the various non canon things (*eyes the RPG for a minute*) that state unconditionally that the Great Machine was constructed by (or more precisely, to the designs of and on the orders of) the Vorlons.

Regardless, it seems likely that the Vorlons could make the Grey Council see whatever they liked, even if they didn't physically interfere with the device.

Even discounting a Vorlon link, the device was presumably originally keyed to Valen. Valen was at least part human. Consequently, no mumbo jumbo about great souls is needed to explain why it reacts to humans.

[Aaron]

The Minbari committed two warcrimes: torture of prisoners (something we know, incidentally, that Earth did to them, probably in far greater numbers, given that random hobos in the Nightwatch claim to have done it before, but the Minbari only did it expressly on the orders of the Grey Council. Which incidentally, makes them considerably less likely than any human polity ever to torture people) and the destruction of vessels and troops attempting to surrender to them. I'm not sure if that second one is actually considered a war crime, but it probably should be.

Killing troops that are trying to surrender is a war crime.

[McC]

I could swear that they used the magic triangle on a few other captured humans and got reactions out of them as well.

A lot of people seem to be expressing the sentiment that the triluminary was some how 'magic'. I never thought it to be such. The Minbari may have some kind of mumbo-jumbo mysticism jacketing it, sure, but taking that at face value is like taking Christiain mythology as face value, too.

The triluminary, in this context, always seemed to me to be a simple detector of human DNA. The "Minbari souls" and "souls of Valen" were human DNA contaminants in the Minbari gene pool as a result of Sinclair's time-traveling and becoming Valen a thousand years prior. There's nothing deeper to it than that. There are no "Minbari souls being reborn in human bodies" -- it's human DNA in the Minbari that are somehow related to the progeny of Valen.

[NecronLord]

Killing troops that are trying to surrender is a war crime.

Having looked it up, that would be under the Hague Convention of 1899 Article 23. Of course, as far as we're aware, they surrendered at some point before the Battle of the Line, at which point Delenn was publically advocating an end to hostilities.

[Baal]

Killing troops that are trying to surrender is a war crime.

Having looked it up, that would be under the Hague Convention of 1899 Article 23. Of course, as far as we're aware, they surrendered at some point before the Battle of the Line, at which point Delenn was publically advocating an end to hostilities.

She made one quiet attempt using the old Minbari of the Rangers that was thwarted by mistake by Londo.

She then made quiet complaints in private to friends but never once took a obvious public stance against the war.


By the way, as was quoted she demanded the EA ships be followed back to the base and everyone killed. At what point could she at all have known that the base in question was purely military or a military base within a civilian area? If you followed the USS Enterprise back to its base and killed everyone there you would be killing a few million people who live in the San Diego area.


Finally when the old Minbari ranger dies the Minbari are the first to show up. When G'Kar tries to speak to them the Minbari quite clearly tells him that if he dares speak even one more word the Minbari would add the Narn to the list of targets and wipe them out as well.

That member of the warrior class makes no qualms about this and G'Kar quite clearly from his knowledge of the Minbari takes this as a credible threat.

The Minbari are barely controllable psychopaths.

[Baal]

I could swear that they used the magic triangle on a few other captured humans and got reactions out of them as well.

A lot of people seem to be expressing the sentiment that the triluminary was some how 'magic'. I never thought it to be such. The Minbari may have some kind of mumbo-jumbo mysticism jacketing it, sure, but taking that at face value is like taking Christiain mythology as face value, too.

The triluminary, in this context, always seemed to me to be a simple detector of human DNA. The "Minbari souls" and "souls of Valen" were human DNA contaminants in the Minbari gene pool as a result of Sinclair's time-traveling and becoming Valen a thousand years prior. There's nothing deeper to it than that. There are no "Minbari souls being reborn in human bodies" -- it's human DNA in the Minbari that are somehow related to the progeny of Valen.

The triluminary has many functions. If I am remembering right it was brought to the Minbari by Valen. He got it at from Delenn so in effect we dont really know where it comes from really. The device seems to detect human DNA. It also has the ability to alter humans and Minbari since Delenn and Sinclair use it to alter their appearance.

[McC]

The triluminary has many functions. If I am remembering right it was brought to the Minbari by Valen. He got it at from Delenn so in effect we dont really know where it comes from really. The device seems to detect human DNA. It also has the ability to alter humans and Minbari since Delenn and Sinclair use it to alter their appearance.

In both instances, the triluminary is the apex of a much more complex crystalline tower that they must first construct. I would posit that while the triluminary probably plays some part (perhaps something related to its detection of human DNA), I doubt it's the end-all be-all of the process.

[Baal]

The triluminary has many functions. If I am remembering right it was brought to the Minbari by Valen. He got it at from Delenn so in effect we dont really know where it comes from really. The device seems to detect human DNA. It also has the ability to alter humans and Minbari since Delenn and Sinclair use it to alter their appearance.

In both instances, the triluminary is the apex of a much more complex crystalline tower that they must first construct. I would posit that while the triluminary probably plays some part (perhaps something related to its detection of human DNA), I doubt it's the end-all be-all of the process.

Hard to say for sure. These are the Minbari we are talking about. The extra stuff might be needed or it might be just there for looks. The Religious Caste at least appears to be the type to light a million candles to sit and meditate. Are the candles needed? No its just the "effect" they want.

So the extra stuff might be needed or it might not.

The real question I have is what the Minbari were attempting to accomplish by using the device on Sinclair while they were torturing him.

[NecronLord]

She then made quiet complaints in private to friends but never once took a obvious public stance against the war.

With the exception of the Starfire Wheel, Minbari do not have 'public stances' - a newspaper was entirely foreign to her. Sheridan is not troubled by news reporters on Minbar. The Grey Council live shrouded in mystery on their own private cruiser. What she says to other members of the Grey Council is her official position.

By the way, as was quoted she demanded the EA ships be followed back to the base and everyone killed. At what point could she at all have known that the base in question was purely military or a military base within a civilian area? If you followed the USS Enterprise back to its base and killed everyone there you would be killing a few million people who live in the San Diego area.

Because the Warrior Caste have clear rules of engagement that they follow, that do not deliberately target civillians (until all the other side's warriors are dead). They followed these throughout the war, resulting in minimal human casualties. While I'm sure there were some civillian contractors, janitors, etc, at the base, they did not deliberately attack civillian structures. We have heard nothing of them attacking civillian structures during the war, and until we do, it is not reasonable to conclude that it happened.

Finally when the old Minbari ranger dies the Minbari are the first to show up. When G'Kar tries to speak to them the Minbari quite clearly tells him that if he dares speak even one more word the Minbari would add the Narn to the list of targets and wipe them out as well.

And? Actions count, not words. I have said that I would 'kill someone' many times. Does that mean I should be imprisoned for attempted murder? It doesn't matter what Delenn says merely what her words lead to.

The intention of the Minbari was to wipe out humanity.

The actions of the Minbari were to wipe out less than the population of the suburb I live in.

[fgalkin2]

I don't see what people are complaining about regarding the ending of the war. The Minbari idea of reincarnation is questionable at best.

Sinclair has Valen's 'soul' because he is Valen, not because he's a reincarnation. This was, however, a misconception that the Vorlons found convinient.

I could swear that they used the magic triangle on a few other captured humans and got reactions out of them as well.

That's because the triangles react to human DNA. That's why they only work for Sinclair's descendants among the Minbari- they're the only ones who have any human DNA in them.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Baal]

She then made quiet complaints in private to friends but never once took a obvious public stance against the war.

With the exception of the Starfire Wheel, Minbari do not have 'public stances' - a newspaper was entirely foreign to her. Sheridan is not troubled by news reporters on Minbar. The Grey Council live shrouded in mystery on their own private cruiser. What she says to other members of the Grey Council is her official position.

By the way, as was quoted she demanded the EA ships be followed back to the base and everyone killed. At what point could she at all have known that the base in question was purely military or a military base within a civilian area? If you followed the USS Enterprise back to its base and killed everyone there you would be killing a few million people who live in the San Diego area.

Because the Warrior Caste have clear rules of engagement that they follow, that do not deliberately target civillians (until all the other side's warriors are dead). They followed these throughout the war, resulting in minimal human casualties. While I'm sure there were some civillian contractors, janitors, etc, at the base, they did not deliberately attack civillian structures. We have heard nothing of them attacking civillian structures during the war, and until we do, it is not reasonable to conclude that it happened.

Finally when the old Minbari ranger dies the Minbari are the first to show up. When G'Kar tries to speak to them the Minbari quite clearly tells him that if he dares speak even one more word the Minbari would add the Narn to the list of targets and wipe them out as well.

And? Actions count, not words. I have said that I would 'kill someone' many times. Does that mean I should be imprisoned for attempted murder? It doesn't matter what Delenn says merely what her words lead to.

The intention of the Minbari was to wipe out humanity.

The actions of the Minbari were to wipe out less than the population of the suburb I live in.

Of course actions count. G'Kar knew the Minbari to be serious enough to not say another word.

[NecronLord]

Of course actions count. G'Kar knew the Minbari to be serious enough to not say another word.

Right. Let me put it this way.

Right now, 18:31 GMT 9th January 2008, would you convict Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of the destruction of Israel? He's (reputedly) said he wants to do it.

[Aaron]

Having looked it up, that would be under the Hague Convention of 1899 Article 23. Of course, as far as we're aware, they surrendered at some point before the Battle of the Line, at which point Delenn was publically advocating an end to hostilities.

It's been a long time since I saw the movie (or episode, can't recall which it was) but the Warrior Caste was basically allowed to continue the war out of honour wasn't it? If Delenn was trying to stop the war from right after the intial attack then she's not responsible, the Warrior Caste are. Did the EF task force attempt to surrender?

[NecronLord]

It's been a long time since I saw the movie (or episode, can't recall which it was) but the Warrior Caste was basically allowed to continue the war out of honour wasn't it? If Delenn was trying to stop the war from right after the intial attack then she's not responsible, the Warrior Caste are. Did the EF task force attempt to surrender?

Delenn ordered the initial retributive attack, in a highly emotional state. When she calmed down, she was against the war, but the Warrior Caste (and the rest of the Grey Council) claimed that it couldn't end until the destruction of Earth.

We're aware of no surrender (though they likely did occur) until the one transmitted at some point prior to the Battle of the Line by the Earth President.

[Bedlam]

Another warcrimiey thing that the Minbari did (although nothing to do with Delen herself) was the destuction of already disabled ships containing crew as seen during the blackstar raid.

Not sure of the legal basis of this, they were enemy ships but did not seem capable of fighting back and contained survivors but they had not as far as I could see actually surrendered. I supose there was no 100% guarentee that thye couldn't fight back and it was one of these damaged ships mining the area that destroyed the blackstar but even so might be considered a war crime.

[Baal]

Another warcrimiey thing that the Minbari did (although nothing to do with Delen herself) was the destuction of already disabled ships containing crew as seen during the blackstar raid.

Not sure of the legal basis of this, they were enemy ships but did not seem capable of fighting back and contained survivors but they had not as far as I could see actually surrendered. I supose there was no 100% guarentee that thye couldn't fight back and it was one of these damaged ships mining the area that destroyed the blackstar but even so might be considered a war crime.

Sheridan comes right out and says that the Blackstar was coming back to finish off all ships.

Also it was stated that no ship ever survived battle with the Minbari. Since not every hit is a kill that means no matter how crippled and defenseless the the EA ship might be the great powerful honorable warriors of the Minbari destroyed it.

Also there were multiple attempts by the EA to either negotiate or straight out surrender. No response was ever given by the Minbari. They ignored all communication from Earth.

[Baal]

It's been a long time since I saw the movie (or episode, can't recall which it was) but the Warrior Caste was basically allowed to continue the war out of honour wasn't it? If Delenn was trying to stop the war from right after the intial attack then she's not responsible, the Warrior Caste are. Did the EF task force attempt to surrender?

Delenn ordered the initial retributive attack, in a highly emotional state. When she calmed down, she was against the war, but the Warrior Caste (and the rest of the Grey Council) claimed that it couldn't end until the destruction of Earth.

We're aware of no surrender (though they likely did occur) until the one transmitted at some point prior to the
Battle of the Line by the Earth President.

Having read the novel there were several attempts by Earth to surrender. These ranged from offering to send over the Captain of the ship that fired to a straight out unconidtional surrender.

[Anguirus]

Moving the goalposts much? We've gone from "Delenn committed war crimes" to "the Minbari committed war crimes." Of course the Minbari committed war crimes, and of course their society is nuts.

However, they still somehow managed to kill just 250,000 people. This indicates to me that they were conducting the war with a considerable degree of restraint, and despite all the saber-rattling about killing all humans I believe the Minbari would have quit long before they got to the point of threatening the human species itself.

[NecronLord]

Sheridan comes right out and says that the Blackstar was coming back to finish off all ships.

I didn't know he was on sleepers.

Also it was stated that no ship ever survived battle with the Minbari.

"No human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet?" do you mean? Not much of a surprise, given that when the Minbari open fire, Earth ships can be destroyed in one shot.

Since not every hit is a kill that means no matter how crippled and defenseless the the EA ship might be the great powerful honorable warriors of the Minbari destroyed it.

Highly likely. Of course, it's not a warcrime to sink ships engaged in hostilities. Of course, quite how you would determine how the laws of war at sea apply to these space ships is another matter.

Also there were multiple attempts by the EA to either negotiate or straight out surrender. No response was ever given by the Minbari. They ignored all communication from Earth.

According to a book which may or may not be canon {Sorrows, supposedly, is 100% canon, JMS says there are inconsistancies in the novel, even though he likes it.}

Once again, I will point out that Delenn herself was against the war after the initial attack. And committed or ordered precisely zero war crimes that we know of.

Consequently, the only honest answer to your original question is No. I would not convict Delenn of warcrimes as she did not commit any.