SGA 4*11 ''Be All My Sins Remember'd'' (Spoilers)

[Stargate Nerd]

I don't think it's fair to include Ori technology in any comparison. It's probably safe to assume that ascended beings have a better understanding of physics than any mortals ever did, what with Jackson's hidden knowledge. Most likely, Ori technology is not the result of organic research and development, but is conceived and handed down by the ascended Ori. The mortals we've seen in the Ori galaxy didn't seem to have a very advanced technological base.

Either way, even if we disregarded the Asgard plasma beams being more effective on the Auroras. The fact that the Ancients lost to the Wraith while 4 Ori battleships conquered most of the milky way where numerous races seem to be more developed than the Wraith is probably further proof that the Ori have superior technology in ~2,000 AD than the Ancients had 10,000 BC.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Well, remember, the ancient technology is all pre-ascension. The Orii have ascended beings designing their ships for them.

[NecronLord]

In regards to the Asurans, their technological level is probably still stuck at the level the Ancients' tech was when Atlantis was abandoned (no room for imagination or innovation, though the gate weapon from "First Strike" works against that).

We don't need to assume they're incapable of development, like the borg. The Ancients' technology was visually homogenous for over a million years (Rising prologue to abandonement of Atlantis) even though they made progress and carried out research in many areas. Just because the Asurans look the same as the Lanteans, doesn't mean they haven't progressed

NIAM: It does. (He straightens up.) We have achieved much since our second birth. We have evolved to take the form of our creators, built a city far grander than they ever achieved ... yet for all this, we are still restricted from reaching a pivotal point in our evolution. Also, we can't build about half of their shiny things, which is a constant annoyance.

Also, it seems not to have occured to you that the Ori ships are gigantic. Auroras, on the other hand, are not. Even using the (as far as I know, unsourced, so take these with a grain of salt. I think they're rather generous with their scalings for the Aurora class) scalings I've seen on gateworld, a toilet seat is longer than an Aurora class (3194m vs 2344m) and at least thrice as wide. accounting for the empty space, but assuming that the big glowing bulb actually does something, a toilet seat might be between two and four times the volume of an Aurora.

A toilet seat takes not less than seven beams (both of the ships destroyed in Unending visibly take seven hits, but we could assume that more are taken offscreen) to destroy. An Aurora takes ten (assuming that two of the beams that hit it one shot are the same as the two beams being fired in the previous shot, otherwise, it's twelve) shots. An Ori ship, despite being bigger, is actually destroyed more quickly. While the Aurora is already coming apart before ten shots are delivered, the Ori ships do too, the second Ori ship being visibly damaged by large surface explosions after four or five shots, and the first being visibly damaged by a large explosion in its engine section on the sixth shot. The Aurora is exploding by the fourth shot, however, remember, it is smaller.

The Ori may be all-knowing (or they may not, remember, they philosophically reject the scientific method) but their followers are significantly less advanced than the Asurans.

[Stargate Nerd]

We don't need to assume they're incapable of development, like the borg. The Ancients' technology was visually homogenous for over a million years (Rising prologue to abandonement of Atlantis) even though they made progress and carried out research in many areas. Just because the Asurans look the same as the Lanteans, doesn't mean they haven't progressed

Well fact is that we don't know either way, were making assumptions. And since the Asurans have been more or less dormant since the Wraith deactivated their attack code it's possible that they haven't progressed.

Besides how do we know that the Asurans ever were on the same tech level as the Ancients to begin with?

NIAM: It does. (He straightens up.) We have achieved much since our second birth. We have evolved to take the form of our creators, built a city far grander than they ever achieved ... yet for all this, we are still restricted from reaching a pivotal point in our evolution. Also, we can't build about half of their shiny things, which is a constant annoyance.

How is building a big city equal to creating new and powerful technology?

Also, it seems not to have occured to you that the Ori ships are gigantic. Auroras, on the other hand, are not. Even using the (as far as I know, unsourced, so take these with a grain of salt. I think they're rather generous with their scalings for the Aurora class) scalings I've seen on gateworld, a toilet seat is longer than an Aurora class (3194m vs 2344m) and at least thrice as wide. accounting for the empty space, but assuming that the big glowing bulb actually does something, a toilet seat might be between two and four times the volume of an Aurora.

They're more or less the same length, assuming that the Odyssey and the Daedalus are the same. Besides as you've pointed out yourself, the Ori ships are hollow. And the glowing bulb is the power source.

A toilet seat takes not less than seven beams (both of the ships destroyed in Unending visibly take seven hits, but we could assume that more are taken offscreen) to destroy. An Aurora takes ten (assuming that two of the beams that hit it one shot are the same as the two beams being fired in the previous shot, otherwise, it's twelve) shots. An Ori ship, despite being bigger, is actually destroyed more quickly. While the Aurora is already coming apart before ten shots are delivered, the Ori ships do too, the second Ori ship being visibly damaged by large surface explosions after four or five shots, and the first being visibly damaged by a large explosion in its engine section on the sixth shot. The Aurora is exploding by the fourth shot, however, remember, it is smaller.

Yeah but you're forgetting something. Unending featured the Odyssey which is powered by both a ZPM and an Asgard core, whereas the Apollo and Daedalus have neither.

And I don't know if you've seen the Ark of Truth, but in that movie the Odyssey shrugs off sustained bombardment by 4 Ori ships for more than ten minutes[Warning, preceeding text contains Ark of Truth spoilers ~NL]

[Luzifer's right hand]

You stupid piece of shit! You could mention that the little text contains spoilers for something that's not legally available at all, instead of a sarcastic comment for example which is not uncommon here, especially if you chose a text size you can read easily without increasing it's size.

[Dahak]

You stupid piece of shit! You could mention that the little text contains spoilers for something that's not legally available at all, instead of a sarcastic comment for example which is not uncommon here, especially if you chose a text size you can read easily without increasing it's size.

Why are you complaining, seriously?
This is a thread about an episode AFTER the first-ever episode of Asurans, from which the (appended) text is lifted.
If you're concerned about spoilers, you shouldn't have gone into this thread in the first place...

[NecronLord]

Why are you complaining, seriously?
This is a thread about an episode AFTER the first-ever episode of Asurans, from which the (appended) text is lifted.
If you're concerned about spoilers, you shouldn't have gone into this thread in the first place...

The small text is about a film called Stargate: The Ark of Truth. It has not legally been shown to anyone not involved in its manufacture. It is available on the internet in a leaked form.

[Luzifer's right hand]

Why are you complaining, seriously?
This is a thread about an episode AFTER the first-ever episode of Asurans, from which the (appended) text is lifted.
If you're concerned about spoilers, you shouldn't have gone into this thread in the first place...

I mean the Ark of Truth spoiler in the post above mine, i did not want to quote the spoilers. There is a leaked unfinished versions available and nothing else.

[NecronLord]

Well fact is that we don't know either way, were making assumptions. And since the Asurans have been more or less dormant since the Wraith deactivated their attack code it's possible that they haven't progressed.

Besides how do we know that the Asurans ever were on the same tech level as the Ancients to begin with?

They're capable of mass producing energy reserve/generator units of the same type used by the Ancients at the end of their existance, and of creating their top-of-the-line warship in large numbers. In all meaningful measures we have seen, save physical abilities (superior) and mentallic abilities (inferior), they're equal. It's possible they lag behind the Ancients in all areas, or exceed them in all areas, or have some mix.

There is one exception in technological homogenetiy; the Asurans carry guns, the Ancients had a TNG-esque dustbuster thing with appropriately awful ergonomics.

How is building a big city equal to creating new and powerful technology?

A culture is not just judged by what it has in the lab - the Ancients could produce plot devices by the score, but a lot of them never worked - their time machine in the Milky Way never worked (though it appears Janus' one did - Project Arcturus never worked. And they apparently lost control of the Asurans. In all meaningful measures we have, the Asurans have exactly what the Ancients did, but bigger.

They're more or less the same length,

As I said, I was using a distinctly untrustworthy source, you are apparently, just eyeballing it. Unless of course, you're using the stats of the guy on gateworld, in which case, I'd love to know how the hell you think 3194 and 2344 are 'more or less the same' 3194 is 36.2% larger than 2344. I'm about 6'1". By that standard, I am 'more or less' the same height as an 8'3" person.

assuming that the Odyssey and the Daedalus are the same. Besides as you've pointed out yourself, the Ori ships are hollow. And the glowing bulb is the power source.

Perhaps you don't comprehend. An Aurora is a few hundred meters wide. A toilet seat ship is over a mile wide¹. I also question the scaling that makes an Aurora over two kilometers long. Ori ships are only substantially hollow, if we discount the glowing bulb as some form of glow, rather than something physical (like, err, a bulb), related to the ship's function. Even then, we are talking about something with at least the same volume of phsyical structure, and probably more like two times as much.

Yeah but you're forgetting something. Unending featured the Odyssey which is powered by both a ZPM and an Asgard core, whereas the Apollo and Daedalus have neither.

Yes I am. Of course, you're assuming (admittedly, this is a painful stupidity the writers are fond of) that if you have enough power, you can put it into any system without overloading it. If anything, the fact that they bother to power more than one beam weapon with their normal power supply suggests that the normal ship's power cannot be routed fully through one weapon.

And I don't know if you've seen the Ark of Truth, but in that movie the Odyssey shrugs off sustained bombardment by 4 Ori ships for more than ten minutes

And? This is meangingless. There is no benchmark for comparison between Ori and Asuran weapons.

I will remind you that Ori beams barely make a decent crater in the ground (Line in the Sand), from a brief bombardment, and take a large number of shots. If they're using terrible amounts of actual energy, they sure don't show it against inert targets.

In comparison, Asuran weapons are even more esoteric and incalculable, essentially consisting of Ancient drones, which (apparently) bypass shields and simply explode. And not terribly powerfully, either.

Both weapons are radically different, resistance to one does not equate to resistance to the other.

¹ Yes. I'm aware that the first Ori supergate has a mere 200 m wide aperture. Presumably, given that it was created when the toilet-ships were not completed, it was intended for a smaller ship.

[NecronLord]

To clarify my position, I agree that given that the Odyssey had a ZPM, my previous comparison is invalid. Nonetheless, I would still question the idea that we have solid evidence that there is a proven superiority, pound for pound, of Ori over Ancient ships in combat.

[Gustav32Vasa]

To clarify my position, I agree that given that the Odyssey had a ZPM, my previous comparison is invalid. Nonetheless, I would still question the idea that we have solid evidence that there is a proven superiority, pound for pound, of Ori over Ancient ships in combat.

Did the Asuran ships had their shields up when Asura exploded?

In Unending two Ori ships survived close to the explosion of a Asgard planet. Its possible that the shields were weakend by the explosion making it easier for the Asgard weapon to work.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Did the Asuran ships had their shields up when Asura exploded?

In Unending two Ori ships survived close to the explosion of a Asgard planet. Its possible that the shields were weakend by the explosion making it easier for the Asgard weapon to work.

The ships that were left in orbit were badly damaged if not powered down. They were shot up by the armada and had millions of holes in them from the replicator blocks. I dobut any had functioning shields.

[NecronLord]

Did the Asuran ships had their shields up when Asura exploded?

Given that they'd just had their crews torn out of big holes in the bottom, I wouldn't think so.

[Stargate Nerd]

You stupid piece of shit! You could mention that the little text contains spoilers for something that's not legally available at all, instead of a sarcastic comment for example which is not uncommon here, especially if you chose a text size you can read easily without increasing it's size.

I'm truly sorry. I meant to leave the first sentence in normal font.

They're capable of mass producing energy reserve/generator units of the same type used by the Ancients at the end of their existance, and of creating their top-of-the-line warship in large numbers. In all meaningful measures we have seen, save physical abilities (superior) and mentallic abilities (inferior), they're equal. It's possible they lag behind the Ancients in all areas, or exceed them in all areas, or have some mix.

Actually they're inferior in physical abilities too. The Ancients were turning themselves into Jedi Knights to ascend.

Anyway what you bring up doesn't have to necessarily mean anything. Just because an Asuran Aurora looks the same doesn't mean it's as powerful. There have been at least 3 types of Hataks in SG-1. Regular Goa'uld, improved Anubis Hatak and improved Replicator Hatak. The same ship type each time.

A culture is not just judged by what it has in the lab - the Ancients could produce plot devices by the score, but a lot of them never worked - their time machine in the Milky Way never worked (though it appears Janus' one did - Project Arcturus never worked. And they apparently lost control of the Asurans. In all meaningful measures we have, the Asurans have exactly what the Ancients did, but bigger.

Yeah a bigger city. And I don't understand how bringing up failed experiments of the Ancients proves that the Asurans are more advanced.

As I said, I was using a distinctly untrustworthy source, you are apparently, just eyeballing it. Unless of course, you're using the stats of the guy on gateworld, in which case, I'd love to know how the hell you think 3194 and 2344 are 'more or less the same' 3194 is 36.2% larger than 2344. I'm about 6'1". By that standard, I am 'more or less' the same height as an 8'3" person.

Well my source isn't Canon either but it's actually closer to what you see on screen:
http://i14.tinypic.com/87lxso5.png

Perhaps you don't comprehend. An Aurora is a few hundred meters wide. A toilet seat ship is over a mile wide¹. I also question the scaling that makes an Aurora over two kilometers long. Ori ships are only substantially hollow,

Really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Oriarmada.jpg
Unfortunately we don't have a comparison with another ship here, but are you gonna tell me that if you sandwiched both sides of the ship and eliminated the empty space between, it would be a particularly wide ship?

Yes I am. Of course, you're assuming (admittedly, this is a painful stupidity the writers are fond of) that if you have enough power, you can put it into any system without overloading it. If anything, the fact that they bother to power more than one beam weapon with their normal power supply suggests that the normal ship's power cannot be routed fully through one weapon.

True but naquada generators can't be enough to fully power all that Asgard equipment, since the Daedalus takes three weeks to cover a distance a O'Neill class covers in an hour. Same with the shields, Hermiod actually points out that the Daedalus' shields will be substantially weaker without the ZPM in "The Siege". So as far as the Stargate universe is concerned, shield strengths can be determined by the available power.

I'd assume it's the same for weapons, since again the Asgard have much more powerful power generators than naquada generators.

And? This is meangingless. There is no benchmark for comparison between Ori and Asuran weapons.

I'm simply trying to show you how much more powerful the Odyssey is when compared to a naquada powered Daedalus class, which exploded after 2 or 3 hits.

I will remind you that Ori beams barely make a decent crater in the ground (Line in the Sand), from a brief bombardment, and take a large number of shots. If they're using terrible amounts of actual energy, they sure don't show it against inert targets.

Yeah science fiction in general is full of such inconsistencies. Doesn't have to mean anything.

In comparison, Asuran weapons are even more esoteric and incalculable, essentially consisting of Ancient drones, which (apparently) bypass shields and simply explode. And not terribly powerfully, either.

Both weapons are radically different, resistance to one does not equate to resistance to the other.

I wasn't trying to compare Asuran weapons with Ori weapons.

[Stargate Nerd]

As I said, I was using a distinctly untrustworthy source, you are apparently, just eyeballing it. Unless of course, you're using the stats of the guy on gateworld, in which case, I'd love to know how the hell you think 3194 and 2344 are 'more or less the same' 3194 is 36.2% larger than 2344. I'm about 6'1". By that standard, I am 'more or less' the same height as an 8'3" person.

Well my source isn't Canon either but it's actually closer to what you see on screen:
http://i14.tinypic.com/87lxso5.png

Perhaps you don't comprehend. An Aurora is a few hundred meters wide. A toilet seat ship is over a mile wide¹. I also question the scaling that makes an Aurora over two kilometers long. Ori ships are only substantially hollow,

Really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Oriarmada.jpg
Unfortunately we don't have a comparison with another ship here, but are you gonna tell me that if you sandwiched both sides of the ship and eliminated the empty space between, it would be a particularly wide ship?

I'd actually like to take this back. The Ori ships really seem to be considerably larger than an Aurora even when you discount the empty space.

[NecronLord]

Actually they're inferior in physical abilities too. The Ancients were turning themselves into Jedi Knights to ascend.

Err... Khalek could do all that shit. The Ancients have not demonstrated such abilities. Prior to the process of ascension, which they only undertook en-masse after fleeing the Wraith. They're quite explicit that the Wraith had 'powers that rivalled our own.'

Anyway what you bring up doesn't have to necessarily mean anything. Just because an Asuran Aurora looks the same doesn't mean it's as powerful.

It's the same class. Even the Asurans say it is. If you want to claim that there's an internal difference there, you'd best have evidence.

There have been at least 3 types of Hataks in SG-1. Regular Goa'uld, improved Anubis Hatak and improved Replicator Hatak. The same ship type each time.

Yeah a bigger city. And I don't understand how bringing up failed experiments of the Ancients proves that the Asurans are more advanced.

It doesn't. However, the Asurans appear to do things on a grander scale than the Ancients. I was actually quite disappointed in Atlantis' size. It's more a town than a city.

Well my source isn't Canon either but it's actually closer to what you see on screen:
http://i14.tinypic.com/87lxso5.png

Do I need to explain how their 2300m != 1600m? Incidentally, they've missed one of the few structures that the show's producers have actually mentioned a size, that would be the 11 Km Hive Ship.

Really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Oriarmada.jpg
Unfortunately we don't have a comparison with another ship here, but are you gonna tell me that if you sandwiched both sides of the ship and eliminated the empty space between, it would be a particularly wide ship?

Wow. Nice out of context theatre. I said 'if we discount the glow as part of its volume' - given that the glow probably does something, I would say that space is actually used by the ship and thus should be part of any volumetric comparison.

True but naquada generators can't be enough to fully power all that Asgard equipment, since the Daedalus takes three weeks to cover a distance a O'Neill class covers in an hour.

Minutes. A true asgard warship can travel some four million light years or so in minutes. It could travel to Ida with the Prometheus in tow in an hour. It is of course, much bigger and thus has space for far better engines.

Same with the shields, Hermiod actually points out that the Daedalus' shields will be substantially weaker without the ZPM in "The Siege". So as far as the Stargate universe is concerned, shield strengths can be determined by the available power.

No limits fallacy. Shields are boosted by extra power, but that doesn't mean we know how much, or that the effect is nigh-infinite.

I'd assume it's the same for weapons, since again the Asgard have much more powerful power generators than naquada generators.

Unsupported. We know that Anubis' ships, presumably still powered by such, and each smaller than a Beliskner, could take one down. If it simply had vastly more energy, it should have been able to beat them regardless. As it is, Asgard technology appears to reply on shield-piercing technologies.

I'm simply trying to show you how much more powerful the Odyssey is when compared to a naquada powered Daedalus class, which exploded after 2 or 3 hits.

See above. It probably is, but you have no means of deriving quantification from.

Let me give you a slight explanation here: One thing we can say with a degree of certainty is that Anubis' ship (Sans Eyes) has a power source capable of generating more power than a Zero Point Module. You know why? It's considerably bigger than Atlantis, and its power supply is sufficient to allow it to enter and leave a gravity well. A single Zero Point Module cannot allow Atlantis to fly. Atlantis is less dense than goa'uld ships (it rises to the surface of an ocean when not clamped to the bottom, meaning it is bouyant, whereas a ha'tak, fundamentally intact, with air still in it, sinks). The only questionable bit there is whether Anubis' flagship is as dense as his ha'taks.

We can therefore say that Anubis should - for instance - be able to generate the power to dial intergalactic wormholes in stargates.

What he can't do, is make that into a literally pocket-sized power supply. But if you've got enough of it, a 'mere' Naquadah reactor can happily outpreform a Zero Point Module.

[Stargate Nerd]

Err... Khalek could do all that shit. The Ancients have not demonstrated such abilities. Prior to the process of ascension, which they only undertook en-masse after fleeing the Wraith. They're quite explicit that the Wraith had 'powers that rivalled our own.'

Actually Merlin had all those powers. And that frozen woman in Antartica could heal people. As could O'Neill after having downloaded the Ancient database into his brain for the second time. Not to mention McKay becoming a freak after that accident on Atlantis. I don't know if the Ancients evolved naturally to this point as Merlin hinted in one of the episodes or if they did it artificially, but they did posses powers such as telekinesis. That's probably why that hologram in Rising mentioned that the Wraith had similar powers as witnessed in "Rising" and "The Hive".

It's the same class. Even the Asurans say it is. If you want to claim that there's an internal difference there, you'd best have evidence.

I'm saying it could be a possible explanation for the Aurora's being torn to shreds in the last episode.

It doesn't. However, the Asurans appear to do things on a grander scale than the Ancients. I was actually quite disappointed in Atlantis' size. It's more a town than a city.

That they do, but I think Atlantis is the size of Manhattan. Wikipedia claims that this was stated in the series, but I'm not sure.

Do I need to explain how their 2300m != 1600m? Incidentally, they've missed one of the few structures that the show's producers have actually mentioned a size, that would be the 11 Km Hive Ship.

That's such a disgrace. If a hive were truly 11Km long, the Daedalus would be almost 1km. Stupid producers and their inconsistency.

Minutes. A true asgard warship can travel some four million light years or so in minutes. It could travel to Ida with the Prometheus in tow in an hour. It is of course, much bigger and thus has space for far better engines.

Well I'm not sure about this. Maybe Ida is closer than Pegasus. Either way my point was that Asgard ships are faster and that part of it has to do with the power generator.

Oh I wouldn't be too sure about the size difference. The O'Neill class and Daedlus class look about the same size in "Camelot". Of course that could be due to the Asgard ship being further back, but I don't really know.

No limits fallacy. Shields are boosted by extra power, but that doesn't mean we know how much, or that the effect is nigh-infinite.

I'm not claiming it's nigh infinite but definitely enough for Hermiod to remark that the removal of the ZPM would severely diminish the Daedalus' shields in "The Siege".

Unsupported. We know that Anubis' ships, presumably still powered by such, and each smaller than a Beliskner, could take one down. If it simply had vastly more energy, it should have been able to beat them regardless. As it is, Asgard technology appears to reply on shield-piercing technologies.

Unsupported yes, but possible.
Anubis installed more powerful weapons, Ancient shields and probably stronger power generators on his Hataks.

And where is it stated that Goauld ships run on naquada generators? The Humies got those from another Human race in "Learning Curve".

See above. It probably is, but you have no means of deriving quantification from.

Fair enough.

Let me give you a slight explanation here: One thing we can say with a degree of certainty is that Anubis' ship (Sans Eyes) has a power source capable of generating more power than a Zero Point Module. You know why? It's considerably bigger than Atlantis,

How do you know this?

and its power supply is sufficient to allow it to enter and leave a gravity well. A single Zero Point Module cannot allow Atlantis to fly. Atlantis is less dense than goa'uld ships (it rises to the surface of an ocean when not clamped to the bottom, meaning it is bouyant, whereas a ha'tak, fundamentally intact, with air still in it, sinks). The only questionable bit there is whether Anubis' flagship is as dense as his ha'taks.

Hataks are far from dense. The only dense part seems to be the pyramid. The black structure around is more or less hollow.

We can therefore say that Anubis should - for instance - be able to generate the power to dial intergalactic wormholes in stargates.

Yeah but so could that makeshift device O'neill built. Besides this is speculation.

What he can't do, is make that into a literally pocket-sized power supply. But if you've got enough of it, a 'mere' Naquadah reactor can happily outpreform a Zero Point Module.

Yeah but how many? Even the Enhanced Naqaudah generator from the Siege which has a power output increased by 600% couldn't run the chair properly, so unless you want to run a power plant the size of a minor city you still won't achieve the same power output as a ZPM or Asgard core.

[Gustav32Vasa]

Oh I wouldn't be too sure about the size difference. The O'Neill class and Daedlus class look about the same size in "Camelot". Of course that could be due to the Asgard ship being further back, but I don't really know.

That wasnt a O'Neill. It was to small for that. The Deadalus are about the same size as Prometheus.

[NecronLord]

Actually Merlin had all those powers.

At that stage, he wasn't an Ancient, you twonk. He was a descended. He had so much information in his head that it was killing him - do you think the ancients normally lived like that? No wonder they were so consistantly useless in a practical sense. They had constant mega-migranes from brain-overload?

And that frozen woman in Antartica could heal people.

Healing people isn't 'jedi power' moron. You're talking about weaponised telekinesis

As could O'Neill after having downloaded the Ancient database into his brain for the second time. Not to mention McKay becoming a freak after that accident on Atlantis. I don't know if the Ancients evolved naturally to this point as Merlin hinted in one of the episodes or if they did it artificially, but they did posses powers such as telekinesis. That's probably why that hologram in Rising mentioned that the Wraith had similar powers as witnessed in "Rising" and "The Hive".

The Wraith have similar powers. Yes. The ability to bestow and remove 'life,' some telepathy, and the ability to generate illusions.

A 'jedi powered' individual like a Prior or Khalek (if he could protect himself from stunners) could potentially dance through a hive ship to the sound of wraith necks snapping the 1812 overture as he passed.

That they do, but I think Atlantis is the size of Manhattan. Wikipedia claims that this was stated in the series, but I'm not sure.

Colloquially.

McKAY: And I was just saying there's no way of knowing in the short term. It'd be like searching every room in every building in Manhattan. It'll, uh, take a while. God knows what other kinds of surprises are out there not showing on the sensors.

The closest there is to an actual statement of a number - that the outer edge of one of the piers must be not less than a mile away from the tower - in the series is in Hot Zone.

That's such a disgrace. If a hive were truly 11Km long, the Daedalus would be almost 1km. Stupid producers and their inconsistency.

I assume you reffer to this. I take it you also think Hive Ships are bigger than planets, as they appear that way on some of Atlantis' sensor scans.

Well I'm not sure about this. Maybe Ida is closer than Pegasus. Either way my point was that Asgard ships are faster and that part of it has to do with the power generator.

That is impossible. If you could reach M15 or a similar, nearby sub-galactic glob of stars, within minutes, you could reach Pegasus within hours, not days. The Replicators are able to speed up a ha'tak to make a longer journey than the Pegasus-MW one in under an hour.

Oh I wouldn't be too sure about the size difference. The O'Neill class and Daedlus class look about the same size in "Camelot". Of course that could be due to the Asgard ship being further back, but I don't really know.

That's a well known effects gaffe. The correct size disparity between earth and ships and an O'Neill is shown in Unnatural Selection.

Unsupported yes, but possible.
Anubis installed more powerful weapons, Ancient shields and probably stronger power generators on his Hataks.

And where is it stated that Goauld ships run on naquada generators? The Humies got those from another Human race in "Learning Curve".

We'll start with the motion picture Stargate 'all his technology is dependant on this mineral' and add in every episode which reffers to Naquadriah, which says the goa'uld are still using Naquadah as a power source. Why else do you think they mine the damn stuff wherever they can? It's sure not pretty.

Let me give you a slight explanation here: One thing we can say with a degree of certainty is that Anubis' ship (Sans Eyes) has a power source capable of generating more power than a Zero Point Module. You know why? It's considerably bigger than Atlantis,

How do you know this?

A ha'tak is ~680m Anubis ship is, discounting the spokes, between four and five times (2,720m - 3,400m) this, with spokes, it's around five kilometers. It's also thicker around the outside, and a much more solid structure, super-weapon cavity aside. Atlantis is 3300m scaling from the scene with X-302s flying low over its outer piers. This fits nicely with Sheppard's dialogue that a lab on the outer edge of a pier is a mile away from the control room.

Atlantis' scaling is here, the Barque of Anubis can be scaled from many shots in Full Circle, where Yu's fleet are kind enough to arrange themselves in a nice ring around it on a plane with it relative to the camera. Good screenshots for this are here and particularly here. Shots such as this demonstrate that the ha'taks are roughly on a plane with Anubis' ship.

Hataks are far from dense. The only dense part seems to be the pyramid. The black structure around is more or less hollow.

They sink, and, even when filled with water, remain on the bottom of the ocean. Atlantis floats, and actually rises from the bottom of the ocean. It is less dense than water. A ha'tak is denser than water.

We can therefore say that Anubis should - for instance - be able to generate the power to dial intergalactic wormholes in stargates.

Yeah but so could that makeshift device O'neill built. Besides this is speculation.

No. This is beyond speculation. We can say that a generator with power to lift an object of at least equivalent volume and greater mass from an earthlike planet is superior in output to a generator which is not.

Yeah but how many? Even the Enhanced Naqaudah generator from the Siege which has a power output increased by 600% couldn't run the chair properly, so unless you want to run a power plant the size of a minor city you still won't achieve the same power output as a ZPM or Asgard core.

Justify this. Anubis is obviously running generators which are as powerful as Zero Point Modules, in an object I wouldn't really describe as city sized.

[Stargate Nerd]

That wasnt a O'Neill. It was to small for that. The Deadalus are about the same size as Prometheus.

Well considering that we have only seen three types of Asgard vessels and the one in question looked like a O'Neill class I'd say it was one.

At that stage, he wasn't an Ancient, you twonk. He was a descended.
He had so much information in his head that it was killing him - do you think the ancients normally lived like that? No wonder they were so consistantly useless in a practical sense. They had constant mega-migranes from brain-overload?

How is this relevant? And how do you know he didn't have these powers prior to ascending? The whole point is that you have to be an advanced human being to ascend on your own in the first place. You can't ascend on your own if you are "powerless".

And that frozen woman in Antartica could heal people.

Genius, we ddidn't actually see what else she was capable of. She couldn't even speak anymore. Adria who is another artificially advanced Human can heal, force choke and all that crap.

The Wraith have similar powers. Yes. The ability to bestow and remove 'life,' some telepathy, and the ability to generate illusions.

Yes powers that rival their own. If the Ancients didn't have anything similar prior to ascending as you seem to claim, why mention this? If you were right they'd say, 'beings of powers superior to our own limited being'.

A 'jedi powered' individual like a Prior or Khalek (if he could protect himself from stunners) could potentially dance through a hive ship to the sound of wraith necks snapping the 1812 overture as he passed.

Genius how did Khalek gain those powers? By being experimented on with an ancient device. Because that's what needed to ASCEND. The Ancients were artificially evolving themselves to ascend. But there might also been cases of this evolution occurring naturally.

Colloquially.

"Before I Sleep"]McKAY: And I was just saying there's no way of knowing in the short term. It'd be like searching every room in every building in Manhattan. It'll, uh, take a while. God knows what other kinds of surprises are out there not showing on the sensors.

Manhattan is 21.6km long and 3.7km wide. Colloquially or not, it must have made sense to make the comparison.

I assume you reffer to this. I take it you also think Hive Ships are bigger than planets, as they appear that way on some of Atlantis' sensor scans.

That doesn't even make sense, they were showing that to explain in what position the Daedalus had to be in relation to the Hive in order to execute their plan. Even if it wasn't 100% accurate it had to be roughly so.

The comparison with the Hive and the planets is a colossal reach on your part.

That is impossible. If you could reach M15 or a similar, nearby sub-galactic glob of stars, within minutes, you could reach Pegasus within hours, not days. The Replicators are able to speed up a ha'tak to make a longer journey than the Pegasus-MW one in under an hour.

I don't care, I just said hour instead of minutes to be on the safe side.
Whether minutes or hours the O'Neill is faster than the Daedalus.

That's a well known effects gaffe. The correct size disparity between earth and ships and an O'Neill is shown in Unnatural Selection.

Possibly. There is inconsistency regarding the sizes.

But we don't actually know for sure how much larger the Daedalus is compared to the Prometheus.

We'll start with the motion picture Stargate 'all his technology is dependant on this mineral' and add in every episode which reffers to Naquadriah, which says the goa'uld are still using Naquadah as a power source. Why else do you think they mine the damn stuff wherever they can? It's sure not pretty.

The movie and TV series aren't too consistent with one another, but I'll concede. The Goa'uld generators could very well be Naquadah generators. Perhaps more efficient or powerful than the ones employed by earth though.

A ha'tak is ~680m Anubis ship is, discounting the spokes, between four and five times (2,720m - 3,400m) this, with spokes, it's around five kilometers. It's also thicker around the outside, and a much more solid structure, super-weapon cavity aside. Atlantis is 3300m scaling from the scene with X-302s flying low over its outer piers. This fits nicely with Sheppard's dialogue that a lab on the outer edge of a pier is a mile away from the control room.

That's in stark contrast to your previous claim of Anubis' ship being considerably bigger than Atlantis.

Atlantis' scaling is here, the Barque of Anubis can be scaled from many shots in Full Circle, where Yu's fleet are kind enough to arrange themselves in a nice ring around it on a plane with it relative to the camera. Good screenshots for this are

This might very well be true, but it's not official. The size numbers for the Hataks are all over the place from 680m to 1km

They sink, and, even when filled with water, remain on the bottom of the ocean. Atlantis floats, and actually rises from the bottom of the ocean. It is less dense than water. A ha'tak is denser than water.

Ok.

No. This is beyond speculation. We can say that a generator with power to lift an object of at least equivalent volume and greater mass from an earthlike planet is superior in output to a generator which is not.

Actually if memory serves ONE ZPM did lift Atlantis into space in the last episode of Season 3. Besides, you're acting like all the ZPM does is fly Atlantis. There's hundreds of additional systems of much more sophistication than what Anubis has that also have to be powered.

Justify this. Anubis is obviously running generators which are as powerful as Zero Point Modules, in an object I wouldn't really describe as city sized.

Have you seen the power generators of Anubis' ship?

And quite honestly I don't understand what this has to do with my original point. You're all over the place with your argument. I claimed that a more powerful powersource than what Earth has might possibly give Asgard weapons and shields more oomph as demonstrated in "The Siege" and you started babbling about Anubis.

[Gustav32Vasa]

At that stage, he wasn't an Ancient, you twonk. He was a descended.
He had so much information in his head that it was killing him - do you think the ancients normally lived like that? No wonder they were so consistantly useless in a practical sense. They had constant mega-migranes from brain-overload?

Morgana said that Merlin deAscended possesing powers.

[NecronLord]

I'll give a rebuttal in the morning. But yes. One ZPM is what I'm talking about. Anubis' ship has more output than one, singular, ZPM. And no, the humans can turn off almost every system in Atlantis. If it were possible to fly with one ZPM, they would have mentioned it. It's not. It needs a ZPM plus something.

Also, the 1Km scaling for a ha'tak is just plain made up, as far as I can tell. The 680m one was done by members of this website, on Stargate-Tech way back when. If you've actual evidence for 1Km, pony up. That would make Anubis' ship much bigger than Atlantis.

As for Manhatten, that's a 'needle in a haystack' type expression of exasperation. Do you think, whenever McKay uses that phrase, he's actually worked out the numbers on what he's talking about, and on finding the proverbial needle, and thinks that the chances are equal?