How large a technological gap is believable?

[Ryan Thunder]

Quite frankly, looking at whatm ore information you've given us, you might as well go 'oh hey, there's these piles of things lying around which are fairly easy to use, but somewhat are ability to replicate at the moment. Don't know hwere they came from. Really don't care'.

Ultimately, it eliminates problems involving aliens and their self-replicating fabricators, and instead allows you to focus on the story, and just what piles of cool shit can do. Imagine if not every 'side' had the same Ultratech? What if only some had levitation devices, and only some had sheets of super-awesome composite they can use as shields? And so on.

That's pretty much how it goes. The story doesn't focus so much on how the shit got there as what ends up happening as a result of it all.

Some 'sides' have gigantic fortress-arcologies, others military bunkers under mountains.

So we end up with things like non-ICE helicopters, deploying swordsmen or fusiliers, depending on what time period we're looking at. Or airborne galleons.

[Darth Wong]

Really, it's just my generic magic tech. Star Trek has subspace, Star Wars has Hypermatter, I have ZPE.

If you're going to make up bullshit, you should at least make up something that isn't the New Scientist Trend Of The Week, so it won't look so dated. Make up something totally out of connection with any real physics, so it won't be debunked. That's why subspace and hypermatter are actually better than ZPE (actually, hypermatter has more relation to real physics than subspace does, but not in a manner that is easily debunked like ZPE is).

[Ryan Thunder]

Really, it's just my generic magic tech. Star Trek has subspace, Star Wars has Hypermatter, I have ZPE.

If you're going to make up bullshit, you should at least make up something that isn't the New Scientist Trend Of The Week, so it won't look so dated. Make up something totally out of connection with any real physics, so it won't be debunked. That's why subspace and hypermatter are actually better than ZPE (actually, hypermatter has more relation to real physics than subspace does, but not in a manner that is easily debunked like ZPE is).

Alright.

Well, I slapped a different name on it. I don't really explain what it is in the story anyway, only that it's inexhaustible.

So it shouldn't really tip anybody off.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

I like the Foundation series solution. High technology exists, but is administered by an ultra-conservative pseudo-religious cult that passes down the operating manuals down as holy script without understanding any of the concepts behind it. this 'Cult of the Machines' could either be a central figure which other factions try to infiltrate/exploit, or a sideline player which is hardly ever noticed except as a somewhat mysterious distributor/repairer of fore-runner artifacts.

[Junghalli]

The aliens cleaned up the mess we left behind so that civilization as we understand it could develop after it falls flat on its face.
That, and there's a few characters that require some sort of magic tech to do what they do, so I needed a source for that; aliens dicking around.

Why not just make the fallen civilization a bit more advanced to explain the uber-tech artifacts, and do away with the aliens? They sound like a huge unnecessary plot device.

[Darth Wong]

Why explain the back story at all? Just do something like this:

"We know not where the lightning guns came from", Tarood explained to his son. "We know only that they were here, buried in this mountain, for as long as we have been here. Perhaps the gods left them here for us to find, knowing that we would need them to fight the Darkness. It is said that someday, one will come who can read the mysterious symbols they left on the walls of the Sacred Chamber."

[Ryan Thunder]

Why explain the back story at all? Just do something like this:

"We know not where the lightning guns came from", Tarood explained to his son. "We know only that they were here, buried in this mountain, for as long as we have been here. Perhaps the gods left them here for us to find, knowing that we would need them to fight the Darkness. It is said that someday, one will come who can read the mysterious symbols they left on the walls of the Sacred Chamber."

Yeah, it's a variation on that. I don't explain it in the story itself, I just like to have explanations for things.

That way, if I get published and its popular for some bizarre reason, I have mountains of extraneous facts to toss out to anybody who asks.

[Lord of the Abyss]

If you want an explanation for why the various sides have different yet equally matched technorelics, and why the aliens abandoned everything, you could postulate it as deliberate on the alien's part. The aliens in question could be as decadent as they are powerful, and the distribution of technology could be carefully designed to make the resulting wars as equal sided and "sporting" as possible, despite each side having very different toys. Sort of a combination of the Roman gladiators and Starcraft. Except that the "gladiators" in question don't know any of this. And the aliens can keep this stirred up; every time things start to settle down and get boring, they can arrange for some ambitious minor power to "find" powerful weapons or tools.

This also simplifies the question of how primitives could eventually get a handle on such hi tech stuff; postulate one or more alien sympathisers.

[Cykeisme]

I agree Ryan, it's good to have a background for "what's really going on", but it isn't (initially) evident to neither the characters nor the reader.
You can drop hints every now and then to point toward the overarching truth, that don't have to be important to the plot, but provide atmosphere and make for a more interesting universe.

Still, the aliens are an extraneous factor. Your story would be far more elegant without them.


----
Regarding the topic itself, applying logic is usually better than having hard and fast rules.
One major blunder is allowing a civilization to have wonderful and fantastic methods of transportation, but still end up having pathetic weaponry. Nice in fantasy, but leave it out if you want any semblance of realism.
Fact is, the technology used in engines that can generate massive amounts of kinetic energy to transport people and cargo? It doesn't take much to direct that energy at your enemies instead, and blast them to kibble.

[Darth Ruinus]

I agree Ryan, it's good to have a background for "what's really going on", but it isn't (initially) evident to neither the characters nor the reader.
You can drop hints every now and then to point toward the overarching truth, that don't have to be important to the plot, but provide atmosphere and make for a more interesting universe.

Still, the aliens are an extraneous factor. Your story would be far more elegant without them.


----
Regarding the topic itself, applying logic is usually better than having hard and fast rules.
One major blunder is allowing a civilization to have wonderful and fantastic methods of transportation, but still end up having pathetic weaponry. Nice in fantasy, but leave it out if you want any semblance of realism.
Fact is, the technology used in engines that can generate massive amounts of kinetic energy to transport people and cargo? It doesn't take much to direct that energy at your enemies instead, and blast them to kibble.

Well, if the big machines are the left over relics of the alien civilization, someone who uses it COULD say "hey, these holy relics can also destroy!" but since they have little of them, cant replace them, regard them as holy, no one is going to be using it as a weapon.

[Cykeisme]

I don't know if being "rare" and "holy" is going to preclude anyone deciding not to use something as a weapon.
In fact, being rare and holy is all the more reason for you to use it to smite your foes.

It's rare, so your enemies don't have one, too.
It's holy, so your god(s) gave it to you to smite them.
Win!

[Darth Ruinus]

I don't know if being "rare" and "holy" is going to preclude anyone deciding not to use something as a weapon.
In fact, being rare and holy is all the more reason for you to use it to smite your foes.

It's rare, so your enemies don't have one, too.
It's holy, so your god(s) gave it to you to smite them.
Win!

Unless the enemy has something that can also destroy your holy relics, like holy relics for themselves.

I doubt you want your super duper tool from god to be suddenly destroyed, or proven ineffective against the heathens.

[avatarxprime]

For your back story you could also go the route of even more super tech. No aliens, simply highly advanced humans. The reason the planet has been restored is that automated terraformers that survived the apocolyptic war came in and reset the planet before turning off, having completed their task and awaiting the next time they are needed.

[Cykeisme]

The reason the planet has been restored is that automated terraformers that survived the apocolyptic war came in and reset the planet before turning off, having completed their task and awaiting the next time they are needed.

Nice.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well, no, but I figured it was anyways.

Really, it's just my generic magic tech. Star Trek has subspace, Star Wars has Hypermatter, I have ZPE.

Except you're appropriated a real-world scientific phenomena in order to give your story credibility, and that's stupid when its just a magic MacGuffin. Hypermatter is better because its just a codeword for shit that works, whereas ZPE is a real thing. Quite frankly a story like this would be better not explaining the technology at all, but instead dealing with culture and how a primitive society reacts to and interprets advanced technology.

[MJ12 Commando]

Magic Blue Smoke is Magic Blue Smoke no matter what you call it, though. I don't know if you can really find it that much more annoying to have it called a ZPE tap than it is if it was called a MPDE (Magic Pixie Dust Extractor).

[Darth Wong]

Magic Blue Smoke is Magic Blue Smoke no matter what you call it, though. I don't know if you can really find it that much more annoying to have it called a ZPE tap than it is if it was called a MPDE (Magic Pixie Dust Extractor).

Think back to the 1960s, when it was commonly accepted in sci-fi that ionizing radiation would mutate you into either a hideous monster or super-powered hero. They had to go and use a real concept: radiation. Now we know that you'll just get cancer and die, so it looks retarded. Nobody would dare make a story about gamma radiation mutating you into a monster or hero any more.

That's the danger of stupidly misusing real science concepts.

[MJ12 Commando]

Think back to the 1960s, when it was commonly accepted in sci-fi that ionizing radiation would mutate you into either a hideous monster or super-powered hero. They had to go and use a real concept: radiation. Now we know that you'll just get cancer and die, so it looks retarded. Nobody would dare make a story about gamma radiation mutating you into a monster or hero any more.

That's the danger of stupidly misusing real science concepts.

I don't know about it being retarded. Silly? Definitely. But if the story was well written and purposely anachronistic (or from the past), I could find this sort of abuse of real science concepts somewhat charming. It all depends on how the technology is presented, how important it is, and how serious you want to be.

But I will concede that it's very easy to do something of this sort wrong.

I don't know if I'm explaining my viewpoint particularly well, but the gist of it is that although abusing science = bad, sometimes if done well it can be quite amusing. But that's not an endorsement to abuse science for the sake of abusing science.

[Ryan Thunder]

For your back story you could also go the route of even more super tech. No aliens, simply highly advanced humans. The reason the planet has been restored is that automated terraformers that survived the apocolyptic war came in and reset the planet before turning off, having completed their task and awaiting the next time they are needed.

Actually, that solves quite a few problems... Means I don't really have to explain why people actually take their ancestors seriously...

Aw hell, I should just call it what it is; it's science fantasy. I mean, shit, one of my villains is ageless, has had his nervous system "upgraded" with superconducting wires and microchips, and throws ball lightning at people.

[center]--[/center]

As for the whole abuse of existing science concepts thing, should be moot, since I renamed it anyways. Basically, it's understood as some sort of magic generator that doesn't need to be refueled.

[Ryan Thunder]

Dammit, I could swear my tags all worked in the preview...

[Illuminatus Primus]

Magic Blue Smoke is Magic Blue Smoke no matter what you call it, though. I don't know if you can really find it that much more annoying to have it called a ZPE tap than it is if it was called a MPDE (Magic Pixie Dust Extractor).

Think back to the 1960s, when it was commonly accepted in sci-fi that ionizing radiation would mutate you into either a hideous monster or super-powered hero. They had to go and use a real concept: radiation. Now we know that you'll just get cancer and die, so it looks retarded. Nobody would dare make a story about gamma radiation mutating you into a monster or hero any more.

That's the danger of stupidly misusing real science concepts.

Right. This is why I hate it when sci-fi'ers try to appropriate science or scientific concepts piecemeal in order to prop up their credibility but then refuse scientific analysis. Dooku's solar sail makes no sense, so Saxton just said it uses conventionally undetectable energies (though off-canon he says it probably uses some supralight emission net like the Holonet or something to drive it). But then take the stupid EUers who tried to make the idiotic pie-wedge Unknown Regions credible by saying "dark matter is invading the galaxy and causing gravitational anomalies". Then, if you added that any macro-scale gravitation would visibly snare the shape and form of the galactic disk, they fob you off and say "oh, its just plot device matter." Yeah, well don't try and fool us with real science if you have no intellectual credibility. Or how about Sarli and his magic lightening technology, which creates more problems than its solves. And all because he couldn't wrap his puny head around the energies required and the fact an ISD has stupendous drive emissions and they obviously have managed ship wash near planets in the same spirit of how we have run off ditches for our roads.

[Ryan Thunder]

Magic Blue Smoke is Magic Blue Smoke no matter what you call it, though. I don't know if you can really find it that much more annoying to have it called a ZPE tap than it is if it was called a MPDE (Magic Pixie Dust Extractor).

Think back to the 1960s, when it was commonly accepted in sci-fi that ionizing radiation would mutate you into either a hideous monster or super-powered hero. They had to go and use a real concept: radiation. Now we know that you'll just get cancer and die, so it looks retarded. Nobody would dare make a story about gamma radiation mutating you into a monster or hero any more.

That's the danger of stupidly misusing real science concepts.

Right. This is why I hate it when sci-fi'ers try to appropriate science or scientific concepts piecemeal in order to prop up their credibility but then refuse scientific analysis. Dooku's solar sail makes no sense, so Saxton just said it uses conventionally undetectable energies (though off-canon he says it probably uses some supralight emission net like the Holonet or something to drive it). But then take the stupid EUers who tried to make the idiotic pie-wedge Unknown Regions credible by saying "dark matter is invading the galaxy and causing gravitational anomalies". Then, if you added that any macro-scale gravitation would visibly snare the shape and form of the galactic disk, they fob you off and say "oh, its just plot device matter." Yeah, well don't try and fool us with real science if you have no intellectual credibility. Or how about Sarli and his magic lightening technology, which creates more problems than its solves. And all because he couldn't wrap his puny head around the energies required and the fact an ISD has stupendous drive emissions and they obviously have managed ship wash near planets in the same spirit of how we have run off ditches for our roads.

Well ok, but I got that the first time around and changed shit accordingly.

Or were you just pontificating?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm just dusting off the ol' soapbox.