Storm Troopers: clones are not?

[Talon Karrde]

This still proves nothing of whether or not the stormtroopers of the Galactic Civil War of Episodes IV, V, and VI were clones. We already know that there were stormtrooper clones during Thrawn's reign and after, but we still have no idea whether or not the stormtroopers of Palpatine's reign were clones. I still cling to the argument that they were not.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

I concur with Karrde, that first link proves nothingabout clones in the Galactic Civil War. Its already been mentioned that Thrawn did indeed clone them, and that is not whats being argued.

As for your second link, I am unable to see the picture (for soem technical reason I'm sure) if you be so kind as to tell me what it is?

[Stravo]

And the nail in the coffin...STRAIGHT from GL's mouth

http://www.trekbbs.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/010432.html

[Stravo]

I concur with Karrde, that first link proves nothingabout clones in the Galactic Civil War. Its already been mentioned that Thrawn did indeed clone them, and that is not whats being argued.

As for your second link, I am unable to see the picture (for soem technical reason I'm sure) if you be so kind as to tell me what it is?

There's two links, one has the bigger picture of an article from some fanzine I believe entitiled Soldiers of the empire...then the second link goes to the beggining of the article that describes life as a stormtrooper...which begin as clones in growth facilities

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Boba had a connection to stormtroopers. I sort of built him out of the stormtroopers, and I knew stormstroopers were clones.

Well Stravo you put up a pretty good fight (damn GL) but there is a few things I can do with this, even if it seems I'm not correct here goes:

When he says Boba has a connection with stormtroopers, he does because he helped form them from the clone troopers, or more precisely, the hes cloned from did.

This next thing he says however, is a little (or maybe a lot ) harder to refute "I sort of built him out of the stromtroopers, and I knew the stromtroopers were clones."

First of all, all the evidence we've provided goes against this, and loads of EU, but this is GL so what hes says is the gospel truth, so that can somehow all be magiclly be disredarded (unfortunatley). With that there are a couple ways to interpret that, it is possiblehowever unlikley he meant that he knew the AOTC era troops were gonna be clones when he did this movie.

Thats all I got right now, its sketchy I know, but maybe someone else can help me out here.

[Stravo]

Boba had a connection to stormtroopers. I sort of built him out of the stormtroopers, and I knew stormstroopers were clones.

Well Stravo you put up a pretty good fight (damn GL) but there is a few things I can do with this, even if it seems I'm not correct here goes:

When he says Boba has a connection with stormtroopers, he does because he helped form them from the clone troopers, or more precisely, the hes cloned from did.

This next thing he says however, is a little (or maybe a lot ) harder to refute "I sort of built him out of the stromtroopers, and I knew the stromtroopers were clones."

First of all, all the evidence we've provided goes against this, and loads of EU, but this is GL so what hes says is the gospel truth, so that can somehow all be magiclly be disredarded (unfortunatley). With that there are a couple ways to interpret that, it is possiblehowever unlikley he meant that he knew the AOTC era troops were gonna be clones when he did this movie.

Thats all I got right now, its sketchy I know, but maybe someone else can help me out here.

Darth Garden Gnome, I feel your pain but it has become very clear to me that GL DOES view the EU as a way to line his pocket and not much anything else. He willfully disregard most anything that appears in the EU, I sincerely doubt we will see things like a Victory class destroyer in the movies...he will simply build a new class of shiop that closely resembles a stardestroyer completely ignoring the EU. Why? Becaus ein the end...this is his baby and he absolutely hgas a right to do as he pleases, BUT he really should change the EU policy to reflect this cavalier attitude...sorry to EU fans out there.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Perhaps some Stormtroopers were clones, and when the facilities were running at full capacity, they started recruiting.

[Steven Snyder]

The evidence is out there, and has been posted.

Honestly, a clone army is probably the best way the Empire could have gone...and I will illustrate why.

First of all, Stormtroopers existed in ANH, BEFORE the republic became the Empire. This is a very important fact for my argument.

1. A cloned army is shown to be completely devoted to the cause. Defections, desertions, disobedience and other such unproductive traits are minimized. This is essential if you are going to usurp power, because now the officers have reason not to defect...they are trapped aboard a shipped filled with thousands of loyal troops.

2. A cloned army is identical in size making mass manufacturing of equipment easy. You might have a few clone strains out there, but you can sill easily standardize armor sizes and such.

3. A cloned army has no home. I cannot stress this point enough as it relates to the politics of the old republic. Senators are much likely to object to war when it is their constituents out there dying on the battlefield. A costly war will erode a politicians popularity at home, if his own people are dying.
But the clones have no homeworld, no families, no culture, and most importantly no official representation. When they die on the field no one will miss them, no family will morn them, no planet will suffer the loss of sons and daughters. In short, it makes war much easier when faceless troops die.

4. A cloned army is completely dependant on the state for support. These clones can't simply retire and settle down on a world. Remember, they have no culture and no home...if the state tells them they have to fight for 5 more years before they can retire to an 'Old Clonetroopers Home', they will have little choice in the matter.

[Master of Ossus]

The evidence is out there, and has been posted.

Honestly, a clone army is probably the best way the Empire could have gone...and I will illustrate why.

First of all, Stormtroopers existed in ANH, BEFORE the republic became the Empire. This is a very important fact for my argument.

So? That was in a different era.

1. A cloned army is shown to be completely devoted to the cause. Defections, desertions, disobedience and other such unproductive traits are minimized. This is essential if you are going to usurp power, because now the officers have reason not to defect...they are trapped aboard a shipped filled with thousands of loyal troops.

So are stormtroopers. Just because you do not have clones does not mean you can minimize defections and increase loyalty and morale. Look at how loyal Hitler's troops were to Nazi Germany during the war. They were not clones, but through training and indoctrination they eliminated these problems.

2. A cloned army is identical in size making mass manufacturing of equipment easy. You might have a few clone strains out there, but you can sill easily standardize armor sizes and such.

The cost of manufacturing several different variations of similar equipment is insignificant next to the cost of raising someone for ten years, especially for a group as large as the Empire.

3. A cloned army has no home. I cannot stress this point enough as it relates to the politics of the old republic. Senators are much likely to object to war when it is their constituents out there dying on the battlefield. A costly war will erode a politicians popularity at home, if his own people are dying.
But the clones have no homeworld, no families, no culture, and most importantly no official representation. When they die on the field no one will miss them, no family will morn them, no planet will suffer the loss of sons and daughters. In short, it makes war much easier when faceless troops die.

But there are no politicians left to object. Remember? The stormtroopers and the Emperor removed them all. Oh, some planets did not like the Empire, but there was nothing they could do about it. The Empire and its fleets and armies could easily crush them with minimal casualties. Further, sometimes armies are used to remove criminals and other things from the ranks of the population (ref. French Foreign Legion). Also, most stormtrooper groups were probably police forces, which very few planets would object to.

4. A cloned army is completely dependant on the state for support. These clones can't simply retire and settle down on a world. Remember, they have no culture and no home...if the state tells them they have to fight for 5 more years before they can retire to an 'Old Clonetroopers Home', they will have little choice in the matter.

And an Army isn't? Clones still must grow old, and eventually they are no longer useful to an army. The Clones would not object to being told to fight (they can't. They were genetically designed not to), but that does not mean that there are not other problems associated with creating clones. It might actually be more expensive to create such "Retirement Castles" for the clones than it would be just to send regular soldiers off after their terms had expired, because those people would find their own jobs and houses, and would support themselves for the rest of their lives, needing only the occasional Vets Society meeting to keep happy.

All of this leads me to one conclusion: Man for man, an army of clones is better, but you can get far more conscripts/soldiers the old fashioned way for the same price.

[Stravo]

Need I say it again....GL said so. What is it about people that they can't accept a fact that I am perfectly willing to accept????

Oh, ONCE again:
http://www.trekbbs.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/010432.html

[Master of Ossus]

What he has consistently said is that the stormtroopers STARTED OUT as clones. He does not indicate whether or not the ANH-RotJ stormtroopers are clones are not. This would make sense, as you would want conscripts to be trained by someone, and the clones would be excellent tutors and mentors for younger troops.

[Stravo]

What he has consistently said is that the stormtroopers STARTED OUT as clones. He does not indicate whether or not the ANH-RotJ stormtroopers are clones are not. This would make sense, as you would want conscripts to be trained by someone, and the clones would be excellent tutors and mentors for younger troops.

Master, at no time does he say started out he calls them Stormtroopers NOT clone troopers so it is an obvious reference to the OT, as well as the fact that it came up during Boba's backstory...in ESB! Definitely putting it in OT time frame no?

Gl's EXACT quote: "and I knew stormstroopers were clones" See previous link I posted. NOT "Stormtroopers started out as clones." NOT "Some Stromtroopers are clones." NOT "Stormtroopers are conscripts because we all know how mindless conscripts can be...how normal people are immune to bribery, seduction and morale failures"

Nope: I BELIEVE he said: "and I knew stormstroopers were clones"

It's GL's story people. Let him do as he wishes.

[Master of Ossus]

I will. If GL says that stormtroopers really are clones, then I will go with what he says, even if it never appears in the EU or in the movies or in the comics or whatever else, but I really don't think that is what he intended with that quote.

[Stravo]

even if it never appears in the EU or in the movies or in the comics or whatever else, but I really don't think that is what he intended with that quote.

Ah, but we have yet to see Ep III I am so hoping that he ties up all these loose ends in his last movie. Otherwise I'm sure that people will be debating issues liek these forever.

[Tsyroc]

One thing bothers me about all Stormtroopers being clones. Why were the two troopers that Obi-Wan snuck past in ANH shooting the shit about some new speeder or something? If they were clones I would tend to think they wouldn't have anything else going on other than their jobs in the military? Besides that, I'd hope that the clone training process would teach them how to guard their post better than that.

[Mr. B]

I don't trust that interview. It DID come from the trek boards. And I think the St are not clones and only evidence in EPIII will convince me. Or if GL gos to a major interviewer ands says that the ST in 456 are clones.

[AL]

the force net also mentions stormtroopers being clones, and several news articles in time mag with gl on aotc, and it has been stated by gl that the clone troopers become stormtroopers and they too are clones, and it would be a hell of alot cheaper to have a clone army than one that is conscripted or recruited. Have any of you ever served in the military?

How much did your training cost?

Besides conscripts dont have a will to fight, they are not motivated or support the cause. Recruits have to meet the standards, and the weeding out process would cause a high failure rate thus screwing up your entire plan to have a rapid trained army and one that know what the hell its doing on the battlefield. As far as the thrawn trillogy, no one had any idea ep 1 & 2 would go they way they did, so movies and gl over rule all this techno star trekized junk of the eu. St in 4 5 & 6 are clones and there must be massive facilities devoted to their production, training, and basic needs.

[Talon Karrde]

the force net also mentions stormtroopers being clones, and several news articles in time mag with gl on aotc, and it has been stated by gl that the clone troopers become stormtroopers and they too are clones, and it would be a hell of alot cheaper to have a clone army than one that is conscripted or recruited. Have any of you ever served in the military?

How much did your training cost?

Besides conscripts dont have a will to fight, they are not motivated or support the cause. Recruits have to meet the standards, and the weeding out process would cause a high failure rate thus screwing up your entire plan to have a rapid trained army and one that know what the hell its doing on the battlefield. As far as the thrawn trillogy, no one had any idea ep 1 & 2 would go they way they did, so movies and gl over rule all this techno star trekized junk of the eu. St in 4 5 & 6 are clones and there must be massive facilities devoted to their production, training, and basic needs.

You mention that it costs a lot of money for training. This cost doesn't just go away when you create clones. They too must go through military training. Plus, the cost is much greater when you create a clone army. It isn't "free" to just create clones, it would costs millions of credits would it not?

[Steven Snyder]

1. A cloned army is shown to be completely devoted to the cause. Defections, desertions, disobedience and other such unproductive traits are minimized. This is essential if you are going to usurp power, because now the officers have reason not to defect...they are trapped aboard a shipped filled with thousands of loyal troops.

So are stormtroopers. Just because you do not have clones does not mean you can minimize defections and increase loyalty and morale. Look at how loyal Hitler's troops were to Nazi Germany during the war. They were not clones, but through training and indoctrination they eliminated these problems.[/quote]

And if you know your history Hitler's most loyal troops tried to assassinate him. Nazi's were loyal to their leaders, but they were not blindly so as a cloned trooper is.

2. A cloned army is identical in size making mass manufacturing of equipment easy. You might have a few clone strains out there, but you can sill easily standardize armor sizes and such.

The cost of manufacturing several different variations of similar equipment is insignificant next to the cost of raising someone for ten years, especially for a group as large as the Empire.[/quote]

I wasn't referring to cost at all, I am referring to logistics. There are few if any variations on the armor and equipment, making things very easy on the quartermaster. No left-handed rifles, no odd sized shoes, no differing helmet sizes, and no special needs for the troops.

3. A cloned army has no home. I cannot stress this point enough as it relates to the politics of the old republic. Senators are much likely to object to war when it is their constituents out there dying on the battlefield. A costly war will erode a politicians popularity at home, if his own people are dying.
But the clones have no homeworld, no families, no culture, and most importantly no official representation. When they die on the field no one will miss them, no family will morn them, no planet will suffer the loss of sons and daughters. In short, it makes war much easier when faceless troops die.

But there are no politicians left to object. Remember? The stormtroopers and the Emperor removed them all. Oh, some planets did not like the Empire, but there was nothing they could do about it. The Empire and its fleets and armies could easily crush them with minimal casualties. Further, sometimes armies are used to remove criminals and other things from the ranks of the population (ref. French Foreign Legion). Also, most stormtrooper groups were probably police forces, which very few planets would object to.[/quote]

Remember??? Apparently you forgot that little point I mentioned at the very start of my post that I said was very important. When the senate was dissolved by the Emperor in ANH, stormtroopers already existed. Even Kenobi knew about stormtroopers and their capabilities, despite the fact that he had been stuck in BFE for years.

The political ramifications from citizens dying in a war were still valid until the senate was dissolved. Therefore it makes more sense to have a cloned army do your bidding while the senate is still in a position to veto your agenda.

4. A cloned army is completely dependant on the state for support. These clones can't simply retire and settle down on a world. Remember, they have no culture and no home...if the state tells them they have to fight for 5 more years before they can retire to an 'Old Clonetroopers Home', they will have little choice in the matter.

And an Army isn't? Clones still must grow old, and eventually they are no longer useful to an army. The Clones would not object to being told to fight (they can't. They were genetically designed not to), but that does not mean that there are not other problems associated with creating clones. It might actually be more expensive to create such "Retirement Castles" for the clones than it would be just to send regular soldiers off after their terms had expired, because those people would find their own jobs and houses, and would support themselves for the rest of their lives, needing only the occasional Vets Society meeting to keep happy.[/quote]

Very true, it would be more expensive. It would be useful to know what they did with the old and worn out Clones before we can really answer this question.

All of this leads me to one conclusion: Man for man, an army of clones is better, but you can get far more conscripts/soldiers the old fashioned way for the same price.

I completely agree, but I think that a cloned army would be more useful to Palpatine and his politics than an army of conscripts.

I do think that the Empire does have conscript armies, but I have a feeling that at least the bulk of the stormtroopers consists of clones.

[Steven Snyder]

Crap... Sorry folks that last post didn't quite work out right...

[une]

You mention that it costs a lot of money for training. This cost doesn't just go away when you create clones. They too must go through military training. Plus, the cost is much greater when you create a clone army. It isn't "free" to just create clones, it would costs millions of credits would it not?

To tell the truth no one knows how much it would cost to create a clone. We assume it's alot because of the high price of cloning in the real world, but truthfuly we don't know.

The only canon example we have is the Kamino cloning of the clone army, that was said to have been done with the promise of a large stip end later.

If you take the above at face value than the Kamino would get a large stipend for creating the clones, thus the logical conclusion is that creating clones is expensive. But, the Kamino did alot more than just create the clones, they provided their basic education, extensive military training, fed and clothed them, housed the clones for a period of ten years, and then designed and built their armor. That's alot of expenses.

It's very possible that the clones cost very little to actually create, and the actual stipend would cover the training, housing, etc of the clones.

[Talon Karrde]

Basically what I said earlier une, except I did it in 1 paragraph

[une]

Basically what I said earlier une, except I did it in 1 paragraph

I was trying to refute your statement of, "It isn't "free" to just create clones, it would costs millions of credits would it not?" by showing that the clones main expense would be their training and housing. And that the actual cost of creating the clones is rather minuscule in comparison, and quite possibly not very expensive at all.

[Soontir C'boath]

These clones only follow orders right?

If so why would they be talking about the XP-35 and how cool it is?

Unless they have a mind too?!

I think the troopers on ANH-RTJ are humans based on that unless the clones do have a mind I won't switch my side on this.

Cyaround,
Jason

[Stravo]

These clones only follow orders right?

If so why would they be talking about the XP-35 and how cool it is?

Unless they have a mind too?!

I think the troopers on ANH-RTJ are humans based on that unless the clones do have a mind I won't switch my side on this.

Cyaround,
Jason

WHERE in AOTC did it say they were mindless???????

They are just like normal humans save that their ability to have independent thought is limited. Making them fiercely loyal to whoever is imprinted on them.....STOP making up stuff that is NOT in the movie to bolster an argument that has been disproved by the CREATOR GL himself. UGH.