TUSKs in Iraq

[MKSheppard]

[FSTargetDrone]

Lookitthat. .50 mounted over the main gun. Interesting.

[Alan Bolte]

Is the transparent gun shield on the M240 standard? In other pics I've seen the shield is typical all-metal.

[FSTargetDrone]

Is the transparent gun shield on the M240 standard? In other pics I've seen the shield is typical all-metal.

Speaking of, why has there been no use of a raised, fully-enclosed and all-around armored cupola for the commander (as with the M60) with the M1 as currently used in the urban setting? Is it simply just a question of maximum visibility versus armor protection?



Those varying versions of open-topped affairs I've seen in other pictures seem like nothing more than a nice target for a hand-held explosive to be tossed into.

[weemadando]

Is the transparent gun shield on the M240 standard? In other pics I've seen the shield is typical all-metal.

Tank
Urban
Survivability
Kit

Its part of that update.

[TheMuffinKing]

On top of that, I thought they replaced the m240 with an RWS.

As to the cupola, yes it is a case of visibility being more important than the protection offered by the cupola. The cupola seriously detracts from the CT's ability to survey for threats.

[Siege]

Question: what does the .50 mounted on the barrel do that the coaxial machinegun cannot? Is it just a matter of extra high-caliber punch?

[That NOS Guy]

Those varying versions of open-topped affairs I've seen in other pictures seem like nothing more than a nice target for a hand-held explosive to be tossed into.

Is that the one outside of Lebanon PA, or is that one an M47 Patton?

[TheMuffinKing]

Question: what does the .50 mounted on the barrel do that the coaxial machinegun cannot? Is it just a matter of extra high-caliber punch?

In addition to a little extra firepower, the barrel mounted .50 can act as an expedient range finder as the bullets maintain a similar trajectory to cannon rounds in many ranges. I think they just added it for the extra bang though, as I had not read any recent literature on the TUSK so take what I said with a grain of salt.

[Sidewinder]

The M1 TUSK looks more and more like the Merkava. I wonder if that's because the Israelis provided some input in the TUSK program.

[FSTargetDrone]

Is that the one outside of Lebanon PA, or is that one an M47 Patton?

I just found it after Googling for M60 tank pictures, but the image comes from here, some organization called "Veterans Memorial Parkway" which is in Dixon, Illinois.

As to the cupola, yes it is a case of visibility being more important than the protection offered by the cupola. The cupola seriously detracts from the CT's ability to survey for threats.

Understood. However, I wonder if we might eventually see the US forces use some variety of the fully-enclosed cupolas that the IDF uses on some of their AFVs consisting of large panels of what I assume is ballistic glass surrounding the cupola. Some of those seem to have coverings above.

I guess I was thinking of a smaller version, something along the lines of what you can see mounted on top of the M113 below. This particular M113 is especially interesting because it has extensive cut-outs in the armor of the hull replaced by clear panels, along with the stand-off cage armor.



As you can see, the driver has basically a full window to his front and left side, and there are presumably similar windows on the right side of the troop compartment. If you squint real hard you can see daylight through the rear windows, maybe coming from view ports in the ramp itself?

[TheMuffinKing]

[

Understood. However, I wonder if we might eventually see the US forces use some variety of the fully-enclosed cupolas that the IDF uses on some of their AFVs consisting of large panels of what I assume is ballistic glass surrounding the cupola. Some of those seem to have coverings above.

I guess I was thinking of a smaller version, something along the lines of what you can see mounted on top of the M113 below. This particular M113 is especially interesting because it has extensive cut-outs in the armor of the hull replaced by clear panels, along with the stand-off cage armor.



Cool stuff, I hear its air conditioned too...

As you can see, the driver has basically a full window to his front and left side, and there are presumably similar windows on the right side of the troop compartment. If you squint real hard you can see daylight through the rear windows, maybe coming from view ports in the ramp itself?

I like this m113, something akin to this was shown on future weapons or mail call, I can't remember which. The gist was that the Army developed a variant akin to this as a riot control vehicle that had shotguns firing a variety of munitions from within the vehicle. Crewmembers had large viewports with transparent armor (or ballistic glass) to see with.

As for equipping tanks, I suppose the best we have now (which could be added to the tusk package with some difficulty) is a large Israeli designed/inspired cupola found on many humvees, found it, here:

[TheMuffinKing]

Ghetto edit: I suppose that an RWS dedicated to being some sort of sensor stack could be shoehorned in also.

[Sidewinder]

As for equipping tanks, I suppose the best we have now (which could be added to the tusk package with some difficulty) is a large Israeli designed/inspired cupola found on many humvees, found it, here: <snip>

In my opinion, that cupola is TOO DAMN BIG to be of practical use. Its weight would likely unbalance the Humvee (although it probably wouldn't affect the 70-ton M1), and its height would make it pretty damn easy to spot.

[Sea Skimmer]

In addition to a little extra firepower, the barrel mounted .50 can act as an expedient range finder as the bullets maintain a similar trajectory to cannon rounds in many ranges. I think they just added it for the extra bang though, as I had not read any recent literature on the TUSK so take what I said with a grain of salt.

Ranging machine guns are pretty irrelevant for modern tank guns; at any range they would be accurate at the main gun is going to have an almost flat trajectory, making ranging largely unnecessary. Back when the British introduced the idea in the 1950s even the highest velocity tank ammo flew a good 500m/s slower then current AP rounds, which meant they needed a lot more super elevation and thus had a much smaller dangerous space.

You needed special tracer ammo for the idea to work too, and it was only ballistically matched to HESH shells, so you had to make a conversion of the required elevation using a scale to inside the turret to covnert it to APDS or HEAT ballistics … all and all it was a clumsy system but better then anything else at the time.

The TUSK .50cal mount on top of the main gun is an idea copied off Israel. An awful lot of buildings and cover exists which will stop 7.62mm rounds, but not .50cal. Having that gun saves 120mm ammo, reduced collateral damage, and you don’t have to worry about the muzzle blast killing friendly infantry.

[Ford Prefect]

and you don’t have to worry about the muzzle blast killing friendly infantry.

At what distance is the discharge lethal to infantry?

[FSTargetDrone]

In my opinion, that cupola is TOO DAMN BIG to be of practical use. Its weight would likely unbalance the Humvee (although it probably wouldn't affect the 70-ton M1), and its height would make it pretty damn easy to spot.

But the issue of height increasing visibility isn't as much of an issue when you are driving down city streets, right? A vehicle that large is going to be hard to miss either way. I suppose it's just one more piece of a hard projection that could be snagged on something.

Anyway, if we're talking just about the M1, would it be practical to have a similar cupola design used on its turret, similar to the cupola seen in the picture of the Humvee that TheMuffinKing provided? A cupola like that could be designed that isn't permanently attached, I suppose, if you wanted to remove it for any number of reasons, based on the mission at hand. It just seems like the tank commanders are terribly vulnerable from above (from pictures I've seen, at least) with the current arrangement. If all-around (including above) protection could be provided, protection that allows a fairly reasonable amount of viewing area, would that be something they commanders would want to use? At the very least it would provide protection from blown fragments, small arms fire and hopefully prevent things being tossed inside.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Why not mount something like this for the commanders position?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Why not mount something like this for the commanders position?

It's only useful if it can be remote controlled.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Why not mount something like this for the commanders position?

It's only useful if it can be remote controlled.

How do you figure; its an armoured bathtub for the commander to sit in.

[Commander 598]

For all the talk about adding protection for the commander have you ever thought to ask "Why would he stick his out in the first place?" I can't really see a need much of a need for that unless he's getting out...there's even a phone on the ass of the tank specifically so someone can talk to the crew from outside so that's not really an issue and I'm pretty sure there's a ton of advanced electronic sights telling him everything from his station too...

I wouldn't be sticking my head out while rolling through a hostile city in the first place so I find the idea of adding big fat armored bubble for him OUTSIDE of the tank rather redundant...

[JointStrikeFighter]

For all the talk about adding protection for the commander have you ever thought to ask "Why would he stick his out in the first place?" I can't really see a need much of a need for that unless he's getting out...there's even a phone on the ass of the tank specifically so someone can talk to the crew from outside so that's not really an issue and I'm pretty sure there's a ton of advanced electronic sights telling him everything from his station too...

I wouldn't be sticking my head out while rolling through a hostile city in the first place so I find the idea of adding big fat armored bubble for him OUTSIDE of the tank rather redundant...

My understanding is that in the event of a close infantry attack having that extra machine gun can make considerable difference. And of course, there are times when the commander wants to feel LIKE A MAN! and use a gun to blow some shit up

[brianeyci]

The obvious question is where the hell is the ARENA or Trophy, much more than an armored bubble.

Then it's obvious they don't really give a fuck.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Why not mount something like this for the commanders position?

It's only useful if it can be remote controlled.

How do you figure; its an armoured bathtub for the commander to sit in.

And with an exposed top for a sniper to...

[JointStrikeFighter]

It's only useful if it can be remote controlled.

How do you figure; its an armoured bathtub for the commander to sit in.

And with an exposed top for a sniper to...

Obviously its not designed to protect the TC from top sniper fire; rather fire and blasts from the sides. You cant have it all and a remote weapons station is ridiculously expensaive.