Parted-at-birth twins discover truth...after getting married

[CaptainChewbacca]

More nations than just sparta practiced infanticide, Isolder.

[Adrian Laguna]

In fact, everyone in Europe practiced infanticide. The Spartans were merely stricter than most. If there is one good thing that came out of the rise of Christianity, it's them putting a stop to that practice.

[Flagg]

Talk about your potential for extra-retard babies...

[Adrian Laguna]

First, no. A recent depiction found of her shown her to be actually short, fat, and ugly.

The hell? Fat!? She was thin, with a washboard chest. Here depiction on HBO's Rome is mostly on the money.

That would hold truth, except that ancient chroniclers did not consider her appearance particularly beautiful, either.

For her beauty, as we are told, was in itself not altogether incomparable, nor such as to strike those who saw her; but converse with her had an irresistible charm, and her presence, combined with the persuasiveness of her discourse and the character which was somehow diffused about her behaviour towards others, had something stimulating about it.

Linky

Not my fault Plutarch can't appreciate chicks with boyish bodies.

[Setesh]

In fact, everyone in Europe practiced infanticide. The Spartans were merely stricter than most. If there is one good thing that came out of the rise of Christianity, it's them putting a stop to that practice.

The Gaul's apparently didn't until Caesar conquered them. And christianity really didn't stop it. Christanity only made them stop killing them by exposure, but since babies weren't 'ensouled' until their first breath ( a RCC doctrine of the time) it was perfectly moral to kill them as they exited the womb. A practice impoverished european's kept at well into the early 1700's.

It wasn't stopped altogether until the upper class started trying to feel smugly moralistic and had the practice outlawed and the existing laws on the subject enforced.

[Lord of the Abyss]

<snip>

We are wired so that people raised with us are psychologically labeled as siblings, not potential mates.

And that proves what, exactly? His point was that a twin is actually you of the opposite gender, and people see that as attractive, not that "people raised together find each other attractive." In any case, the people in question were NOT raised together.

But most siblings are. Therefore, if one eliminated taboos against siblings and parents marrying, there wouldn't be the wave of such marriages he claimed.

If there is one good thing that came out of the rise of Christianity, it's them putting a stop to that practice.

As I recall, for a long time it provoked a large increase in infanticide; I've heard it referred to as the highest rate of infanticide in history. Because of it's habit of stoning women for fornication, including rape victims. So, women had the choice of infanticide or death.

[Adrian Laguna]

If there is one good thing that came out of the rise of Christianity, it's them putting a stop to that practice.

As I recall, for a long time it provoked a large increase in infanticide; I've heard it referred to as the highest rate of infanticide in history. Because of it's habit of stoning women for fornication, including rape victims. So, women had the choice of infanticide or death.

I've never heard of that. So right now I'm torn between standing by my statement or laughing my ass off.

[Lord of the Abyss]

If there is one good thing that came out of the rise of Christianity, it's them putting a stop to that practice.

As I recall, for a long time it provoked a large increase in infanticide; I've heard it referred to as the highest rate of infanticide in history. Because of it's habit of stoning women for fornication, including rape victims. So, women had the choice of infanticide or death.

I've never heard of that. So right now I'm torn between standing by my statement or laughing my ass off.

"Laughing" ? Why ?

[Isolder74]

More nations than just sparta practiced infanticide, Isolder.

Yes and Sparta was infamous for doing it. They inspected every infant.

[Zablorg]

As I recall, for a long time it provoked a large increase in infanticide; I've heard it referred to as the highest rate of infanticide in history. Because of it's habit of stoning women for fornication, including rape victims. So, women had the choice of infanticide or death.

I've never heard of that. So right now I'm torn between standing by my statement or laughing my ass off.

"Laughing" ? Why ?

I think he's laughing at the irony of it.

[The Grim Squeaker]

In fact, everyone in Europe practiced infanticide. The Spartans were merely stricter than most. If there is one good thing that came out of the rise of Christianity, it's them putting a stop to that practice.

Making birth control, especially for survival level poor (in terms of resources) nations "illegal" is a good thing .

The methods were obviously unpleasant, but it was better than the problems of overpopulation when most of your population is living at the subsistence level. (Forget peak oil, when you have "peak food")

[Adrian Laguna]

Making birth control, especially for survival level poor (in terms of resources) nations "illegal" is a good thing .

Killing children is not birth control, it's murder.

[HemlockGrey]

"Laughing" ? Why ?

Frankly, if we can't laugh at infanticide, what can we laugh at?

[The Grim Squeaker]

Making birth control, especially for survival level poor (in terms of resources) nations "illegal" is a good thing .

Killing children is not birth control, it's murder.

Yes. So is cannibalism. Guess what happens during famines?

It's horrific, and pre-fertilization birth control is what should be used, but it is what was/is used where there's no alternative. (Guess what happens when the baby is born during the famine, not before in poor nations? I'll give you a clue, it's nasty and has been happening for a very long time).

It's unpleasant, and I'm not advocating it as an alternative, but I am claiming that stopping it was not necessarily a good thing at the time in question, with the lack of other solutions at the time and from a long term, utalitarian point of view.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Making birth control, especially for survival level poor (in terms of resources) nations "illegal" is a good thing .

Killing children is not birth control, it's murder.

WAIT, clarification, I'm talking about babies, not "fully" grown people. (And yes, it's horrifying, but better than overcrowded villages dying during famines slowly and horribly as happened during famines).

I have the feeling that my bad phrasing is going to bite me in the ass...

[DesertFly]

I have the feeling that my bad phrasing is going to bite me in the ass...

Not as much as bad morality is.

[ArmorPierce]

That would be Sparta. Their standards were very strict. A baby a little too small could be considered unworthy.

I'm not talking about the society as a whole, I'm talking about purely the pharaoh and his family. I think it was put forth to explain why there wasn't much more pharaohs that had obivous genetic problems.

[ArmorPierce]

First, no. A recent depiction found of her shown her to be actually short, fat, and ugly.

The hell? Fat!? She was thin, with a washboard chest. Here depiction on HBO's Rome is mostly on the money.

That would hold truth, except that ancient chroniclers did not consider her appearance particularly beautiful, either.

For her beauty, as we are told, was in itself not altogether incomparable, nor such as to strike those who saw her; but converse with her had an irresistible charm, and her presence, combined with the persuasiveness of her discourse and the character which was somehow diffused about her behaviour towards others, had something stimulating about it.

Linky

Not my fault Plutarch can't appreciate chicks with boyish bodies.

I'm not able to tell whether you are beings serious or not. In any case, http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1 ... 6E21324230
http://www.egyptvoyager.com/articles_cleopatra.htm

[ArmorPierce]

I have the feeling that my bad phrasing is going to bite me in the ass...

Not as much as bad morality is.

I think this issue does bring up a rather good morality question. Would you kill your new born baby so that all of you have a better chance to survive (although it's still low) or try to drag it along which would probably result in a long and painful death not just for the baby but for everyone that it burdens.

[Lusankya]

On a related topic: Identical twins who have never met.

[Raw Shark]

[snip] Not really, as the bloke said, we're attracted to people who are similar to ourselves, and a twin is you with breasts (or dangly bits). [snip]

Nitpick: If they were not the same gender, they can't be identical twins. At best they could be very, very similar fraternal twins.

Cut out the taboo, and age and a hell of a lot of people would probably marry their parents or siblings

One time I met this girl and we felt this amazing mutual chemistry instantly, the likes of which I've never experienced before or since. We couldn't keep our hands off each other, were very close in official age, my parentage is rather murky, and best of all we have the same unusual birth mark.

"Separated-At-Birth" jokes were made in abundance and shrugged off at the time, but every time I hear a story like this now I have to think about her and really wonder...

[Phantasee]

One time I met this girl and we felt this amazing mutual chemistry instantly, the likes of which I've never experienced before or since. We couldn't keep our hands off each other, were very close in official age, my parentage is rather murky, and best of all we have the same unusual birth mark.

"Separated-At-Birth" jokes were made in abundance and shrugged off at the time, but every time I hear a story like this now I have to think about her and really wonder...

Are you still in touch with her? You should totally find out if your suspicions are correct. I couldn't sleep unless I knew.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'm not able to tell whether you are beings serious or not. In any case, http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1 ... 6E21324230
http://www.egyptvoyager.com/articles_cleopatra.htm

Those "What did Cleopatra look like" articles are (falsely) based on the idea that,

1. She was Mediterranean in origin.
2. She had an average Egyptian body.


They're ineffective popsci on both counts, because Cleopatra was a member of a Macedonian conquest dynasty which had been inbreeding for two and a half centuries. She was, as Adrian observes, rather boyish (and her sister Berenike IV, moreso), but she was certainly not a normal Egyptian. She was a Macedonian, and that means she could have easily been a blonde (though wasn't), and was likely more fair-skinned and Caucasian than not. She did not eat the same diet as an Egyptian, she did not have the same ethnic background as an Egyptian, she was, in fact, the first person in her family to even speak Egyptian. Cleopatra bears as much relation to the average Egyptian as the wife of the Indian Viceroy in 1880 did to the average Indian...

Now, analysis based off of statues is not particularly useful, either, because the Egyptian style was formal and hieratic and did not realistically portray features. Everyone knows this. Now, it's likely true she was probably a bit to well fed, but that would actually be a plus in any time before the past 100 years, because back then a woman in the 160 - 215lb range was thought to be ideal and attractive. Her older sister Berenice who briefly overthrew their father and reigned for four years was said to be extremely athletic (in a masculine fashion) and so was probably quite skinny.

(If one hasn't noticed by now, Ptolemaic women were pretty tough and not to be trifled with.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

215 lbs for an average, even tall woman, is objectively morbidly obese.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

215 lbs for an average, even tall woman, is objectively morbidly obese.

Nonetheless, there was one famous stage actress in the 1890s who reputedly weighed as much as 205lbs.