Remember Maryland, Democrats are for a Police State!

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-01-12 04:24pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote: We have a fingerprint database for everyone arrested, and at least when I was born, I was fingerprited. These are not final fingerprints, the patterns change after infancy, but it would have been usefull for ID if I was lost or something.

Most crimes do not leave good DNA. But once you get it, BAM. There is practically no margin of error if you are using a large non-coding region. With fingerprints, you need to have an analyst manually go over the fingerprint because almost no two impressions, even with the same person, are exactly the same due to surface, the way the finger was depressed on said surface. With DNA, you are literally checked against a Database of ATCG sequences (or if you use RNA AUGC) for which there is little room for error.

Even if you use images of an electrophoresis gel you will have better ID than with fingerprints.

That's my other issue. Since most crimes don't leave good DNA, this wouldn't be a very effective tool and would really be little more than a massive money-sink. You still have to hire technicians, pay for the server and computer equipment, train a shitload of people, hire people to administer tests, etc. It's a lot of money for the few crimes where DNA testing would yield reliable results.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2008-01-12 04:33pm

A lot of crimes dont leave fingerprints either. You are probably more likely to leave DNA than fingerprints in a lot of cases. We still maintain a fingerprint database.

Rape: No fingerprints usually. LOTS of DNA, even if a condom is used there is a chance for finding pubic hairs

Battery: Also, often no prints, but if the other person was unarmed and defended themselves, they will often have DNA under their fingernails which is not contaminated, and blood may well be on clothing.

Murder: see battery

Identification of John/Jane Doe: also made easy with a DNA database.

The reason most crimes dont leave DNA is because most crimes are petty thefts and car jackings, things of that nature. Those people are almost never caught because by nature of the crime they dont leave much usable evidence. but a DNA database would be a HUGE money saver for more serious and especially violent crimes

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-01-12 04:51pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote: The reason most crimes dont leave DNA is because most crimes are petty thefts and car jackings, things of that nature. Those people are almost never caught because by nature of the crime they dont leave much usable evidence. but a DNA database would be a HUGE money saver for more serious and especially violent crimes

How do you figure? How much money would it cost to implement a database of everyone, and keep it maintained? To say nothing the costs of passing all the bills required to keep it running and appease the public. As far as rape, many rape cases generally don't get reported until well after the crime, which means any usable DNA evidence will be gone. So I'm not seeing it there either. Especially when the vast majority of people in the database will never be a rape suspect.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2008-01-12 06:24pm

General Zod wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote: The reason most crimes dont leave DNA is because most crimes are petty thefts and car jackings, things of that nature. Those people are almost never caught because by nature of the crime they dont leave much usable evidence. but a DNA database would be a HUGE money saver for more serious and especially violent crimes
How do you figure? How much money would it cost to implement a database of everyone, and keep it maintained? To say nothing the costs of passing all the bills required to keep it running and appease the public. As far as rape, many rape cases generally don't get reported until well after the crime, which means any usable DNA evidence will be gone. So I'm not seeing it there either. Especially when the vast majority of people in the database will never be a rape suspect.

I will have to check, but the most expensive part of it all would be the initial sequencing. Perhaps cutting it down to to those who are arrested would be more cost effective, with parental consent and payment being required to do it at birth.

The cost for sequencing however will drop with technology and use. Not sure how cost effective a nation wide program would be with present tech. But it is probably doable with people who are arrested. Especially if the cost is dispersed across state and federal agencies. And especially as sequencing becomes less and less expensive.

Maintaining the database would, like the entire budget of the NIH, be a drop in the federal bucket.

As for rape cases, it is best to have a system in place, once the tech becomes less cost prohibitive to use. All to often someone is raped DNA evidence is found that cant be used because they never find a suspect, At least if there was a database for all arrests there would be a good chance of catching the bastard.As for non-reports, that is a social problem. It has to do with stigma caused by rape, fear, and shame. And the fact that it is so hard to get a rape conviction that people dont report it. If there was a better chance at conviction, more people would report being raped

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-01-12 06:32pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
As for rape cases, it is best to have a system in place, once the tech becomes less cost prohibitive to use. All to often someone is raped DNA evidence is found that cant be used because they never find a suspect, At least if there was a database for all arrests there would be a good chance of catching the bastard.As for non-reports, that is a social problem. It has to do with stigma caused by rape, fear, and shame. And the fact that it is so hard to get a rape conviction that people dont report it. If there was a better chance at conviction, more people would report being raped

Then perhaps a DNA database isn't an answer? What happens when you get a case of someone lying about being raped because they don't like the person they're fucking anymore? The DNA evidence is there and some of the evidence matches up, but it boils down to her word vs. his. I just can't see a national database for everyone as anything but a massive waste of resources. A database for everyone arrested or convicted of a crime I could support on the other hand, because that's a relatively small portion of the population.

Oni Koneko Damien · Post by **Oni Koneko Damien** » 2008-01-12 06:42pm

General Zod wrote:Then perhaps a DNA database isn't an answer? What happens when you get a case of someone lying about being raped because they don't like the person they're fucking anymore? The DNA evidence is there and some of the evidence matches up, but it boils down to her word vs. his. I just can't see a national database for everyone as anything but a massive waste of resources. A database for everyone arrested or convicted of a crime I could support on the other hand, because that's a relatively small portion of the population.

The first part is sort of a red herring. Denryle's argument for the database is for matching the DNA evidence with an unknown subject. In your "Fuck, then cry rape because you don't like him", the suspect is already known and named, and even without a database, it's easy enough to get a DNA sample from him and match it up with any evidence inside her *without* a pre-existing database.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-01-12 06:50pm

Oni Koneko Damien wrote: The first part is sort of a red herring. Denryle's argument for the database is for matching the DNA evidence with an unknown subject. In your "Fuck, then cry rape because you don't like him", the suspect is already known and named, and even without a database, it's easy enough to get a DNA sample from him and match it up with any evidence inside her *without* a pre-existing database.

Way to completely miss my point. Which was that even in cases where there's clear DNA evidence available, it isn't a be-all end-all solution.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2008-01-12 06:51pm

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
General Zod wrote:Then perhaps a DNA database isn't an answer? What happens when you get a case of someone lying about being raped because they don't like the person they're fucking anymore? The DNA evidence is there and some of the evidence matches up, but it boils down to her word vs. his. I just can't see a national database for everyone as anything but a massive waste of resources. A database for everyone arrested or convicted of a crime I could support on the other hand, because that's a relatively small portion of the population.
The first part is sort of a red herring. Denryle's argument for the database is for matching the DNA evidence with an unknown subject. In your "Fuck, then cry rape because you don't like him", the suspect is already known and named, and even without a database, it's easy enough to get a DNA sample from him and match it up with any evidence inside her *without* a pre-existing database.

Thanks

Additionally, the "fuck then cry rape" does not happen very often statistically. In fact, it is an insult to real rape victims to bring up such a statistical rarity (if a highly publicized one) as an argument against setting up a Database that will help identify rapists.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2008-01-12 06:53pm

General Zod wrote:
Oni Koneko Damien wrote: The first part is sort of a red herring. Denryle's argument for the database is for matching the DNA evidence with an unknown subject. In your "Fuck, then cry rape because you don't like him", the suspect is already known and named, and even without a database, it's easy enough to get a DNA sample from him and match it up with any evidence inside her *without* a pre-existing database.
Way to completely miss my point. Which was that even in cases where there's clear DNA evidence available, it isn't a be-all end-all solution.

Non issue. Why? because the same argument can be made with ANY forensic evidence.

"Why were you in the car with the victim? we found fibers"

"She gave me a ride home"

Even with DNA evidence, you still have to sort out whether the sex was coerced or not (and yes, Drunk sex counts as coercion) and that is why we have lawyers and juries. But in many cases, the rapist cannot even be IDed

Dont be a fucking idiot

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-01-12 06:57pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote: Even with DNA evidence, you still have to sort out whether the sex was coerced or not (and yes, Drunk sex counts as coercion) and that is why we have lawyers and juries. But in many cases, the rapist cannot even be IDed

Dont be a fucking idiot

If you want to talk about statistics, how much of the population would statistically be suspected of rape? You're talking about implementing a database on everyone in the US for a relatively small portion of the country. So again, it's a massive waste of resources.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2008-01-12 07:25pm

Strawman. Not just rape. Every crime that leaves DNA evidence, as well as identifying bodies and a bunch of other uses. I would be willing to tone it down to those arrested at our current technology level, but once the sequencing itself is not as expensive as it is now (and it will get cheaper as whole genome sequencing gets mainstreamed in medicine) then it should be expanded.

You want to know how much it costs to actually sequence DNA? New technology hopes to be able to sequence an entire human genome for less than a thousand USD, and IIRC as of 2003 it cost about a dime per base pair to sequence DNA. If you are only using a few KB for each sample (of feasibly even less, but lets be on the safe side here) that will cost a couple hundred bucks. With 4,000,000 or so births per annum, that is hardly a massive expenditure for the US. The database itself wont exactly be a huge file by modern standards. an MMORPG probably requires more monetary investment.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2008-01-12 07:35pm

You know... Looking at the actual sequencing costs for the first time in that post, any monetary objection I may have had to the cost melted. When I was thinking of the sequencing costs, I was thinking just how expensive all the machines are, and the bottles of chemicals, primers, Taq, etc. Then I looked at the cost and realized that most of those are fixed and only tiny tiny quantities are actually used in a sample, which spreads them out a LOT. Once the sequencer is obtained, its only cost are the costs associated with actually running it per base pair.

So you will have a high start up cost, but in the end the per annum expenditures will not be much. The people that would run the machines are largely already in existence employed in law enforcement crime labs and in hospitals.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-01-12 07:36pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Strawman. Not just rape. Every crime that leaves DNA evidence, as well as identifying bodies and a bunch of other uses. I would be willing to tone it down to those arrested at our current technology level, but once the sequencing itself is not as expensive as it is now (and it will get cheaper as whole genome sequencing gets mainstreamed in medicine) then it should be expanded.

Rape was the best example of crimes that leave DNA evidence. I don't see how the fuck that makes it a strawman when you're still talking about a statistically insignificant portion of the population you want records for.

You want to know how much it costs to actually sequence DNA? New technology hopes to be able to sequence an entire human genome for less than a thousand USD, and IIRC as of 2003 it cost about a dime per base pair to sequence DNA. If you are only using a few KB for each sample (of feasibly even less, but lets be on the safe side here) that will cost a couple hundred bucks. With 4,000,000 or so births per annum, that is hardly a massive expenditure for the US. The database itself wont exactly be a huge file by modern standards. an MMORPG probably requires more monetary investment.

The database at my job has a few million lines of numbers in it, and it still requires a massive amount of time to update and maintain by simply putting all the new stuff into it. Multiple that by a few hundred thousand times and you're talking about a lot of manpower. I'm not just factoring in technology costs alone but the manpower needed to maintain the thing. Given the government's inability to properly maintain even small databases color me skeptical about them keeping the DNA records of every citizen straight.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2008-01-12 07:57pm

The database at my job has a few million lines of numbers in it, and it still requires a massive amount of time to update and maintain by simply putting all the new stuff into it. Multiple that by a few hundred thousand times and you're talking about a lot of manpower. I'm not just factoring in technology costs alone but the manpower needed to maintain the thing. Given the government's inability to properly maintain even small databases color me skeptical about them keeping the DNA records of every citizen straight.

The NIH already HAS a similar database for other organisms. Have you not been paying attention? Would you like me to link you to the search engine for it?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/gquery

The NCBI which runs the database known as genbank, has a total budget of a few hundred million per annum, its database has over 63 million sequence records (growing daily). Each one linking to detailed information pages on the genes, their functions, locations, gene maps, databases of papers, etc etc etc. There are far less worthy endeavors that receive far more money

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-01-12 08:15pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:There are far less worthy endeavors that receive far more money

Tu quo que. There are far more worthy endeavors that could receive the same amount of money this would cost as well.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2008-01-12 08:23pm

General Zod wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:There are far less worthy endeavors that receive far more money
Tu quo que. There are far more worthy endeavors that could receive the same amount of money this would cost as well.

If you have a better, more efficient way of solving various crimes, I would LOVE to hear it. If your cost objections, and "government sucks" objections could be improved beyond the domain of "complete shit" I am all ears.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-01-12 08:27pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote: If you have a better, more efficient way of solving various crimes, I would LOVE to hear it. If your cost objections, and "government sucks" objections could be improved beyond the domain of "complete shit" I am all ears.

Dealing with the massive problems with the existing laws and say, I dunno, giving the police departments a bigger budget and more officers would be a better start than implementing some sort of catch-all database to track everybody in the US.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2008-01-12 08:48pm

General Zod wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote: If you have a better, more efficient way of solving various crimes, I would LOVE to hear it. If your cost objections, and "government sucks" objections could be improved beyond the domain of "complete shit" I am all ears.
Dealing with the massive problems with the existing laws and say, I dunno, giving the police departments a bigger budget and more officers would be a better start than implementing some sort of catch-all database to track everybody in the US.

That is a given. Of course I support a better budget for police. However, you cant just toss police at an investigation when no suspects are forthcoming. The only way to solve certain crimes is if you query such a database in many cases. And even if that were not the case, such a database could well pay for itself in the long run simply in saved time both trying to find suspects, and during the damn trial.

But tracking? Red herring. That does not even make any fucking sense. Track you doing what? Having DNA? Do you have any idea how useless a nucleotide sequence is just sitting there with a name attached?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-01-12 09:00pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote: That is a given. Of course I support a better budget for police. However, you cant just toss police at an investigation when no suspects are forthcoming. The only way to solve certain crimes is if you query such a database in many cases. And even if that were not the case, such a database could well pay for itself in the long run simply in saved time both trying to find suspects, and during the damn trial.

Then make it just a database of people who have been arrested or convicted, since statistically people with criminal records are more likely to commit crimes than people with none. A database of "everyone" is an absurd waste of manpower. Good luck convincing everybody to actually let the government take the necessary sample, by the way.

But tracking? Red herring. That does not even make any fucking sense. Track you doing what? Having DNA? Do you have any idea how useless a nucleotide sequence is just sitting there with a name attached?

So I picked a poor choice of words, hardly a red herring. But your last sentence pretty much demonstrates my entire fucking point. If all it's going to be used for is confirming potential suspects in crimes, then it's a waste of resources.

Metatwaddle · Post by **Metatwaddle** » 2008-01-13 01:01am

General Zod wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote: Even with DNA evidence, you still have to sort out whether the sex was coerced or not (and yes, Drunk sex counts as coercion) and that is why we have lawyers and juries. But in many cases, the rapist cannot even be IDed

Dont be a fucking idiot
If you want to talk about statistics, how much of the population would statistically be suspected of rape? You're talking about implementing a database on everyone in the US for a relatively small portion of the country. So again, it's a massive waste of resources.

Statistically insignificant? The Rape and Incest National Network says that 1 in 6 American women have been victims of sexual assault. That doesn't mean 1 in 6 men are rapists, but the group of men that are rapists is not statistically insignificant.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2008-01-13 01:37am

So I picked a poor choice of words, hardly a red herring. But your last sentence pretty much demonstrates my entire fucking point. If all it's going to be used for is confirming potential suspects in crimes, then it's a waste of resources.

Wow. Someone needs to go back to reading comprehension.

Why that I meant that there needs to be a sequence to query the database to get anywhere useful. They cant track people with their genetic code. but of a crime is committed or a body found, the perp/victim can be IDed by querying the database.

As it stands now, even if the victim reports say, a rape, the day it happens, and DNA is retrieved, the cops still have to actually find a suspect, which could be impossible with many rapes, then they have to gather something other than a hunch to get a court order for a DNA sample. If we had a centralized database with everyone in it, that problem would be solved. Hell, even if we had a centralized database of arrestees, that problem would me largely mitigated.

Then make it just a database of people who have been arrested or convicted, since statistically people with criminal records are more likely to commit crimes than people with none. A database of "everyone" is an absurd waste of manpower. Good luck convincing everybody to actually let the government take the necessary sample, by the way.

\

You have yet to actually demonstrate that it is an absurd waste of manpower. Additionally, many murders, rapes, and assaults are committed by people with no prior records.

As for getting the sample, legally compelling someone to have the sample taken is usually all that is needed. If they dont make it retroactive and simply have it done at birth, at school, as a condition for getting or renewing a drivers license etc etc etc it should not be that hard. It is a cheek swab. Dont even have to deal with fear of needles.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-01-13 01:40am

Discombobulated wrote:Statistically insignificant? The Rape and Incest National Network says that 1 in 6 American women have been victims of sexual assault. That doesn't mean 1 in 6 men are rapists, but the group of men that are rapists is not statistically insignificant.

I just checked the website you mentioned, and it only lists rapes reported. It doesn't actually say how many were successfully prosecuted, so I'd be curious to see how many of those charges were actually dropped or otherwise not followed through.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2008-01-13 02:03am

General Zod wrote:
Discombobulated wrote:Statistically insignificant? The Rape and Incest National Network says that 1 in 6 American women have been victims of sexual assault. That doesn't mean 1 in 6 men are rapists, but the group of men that are rapists is not statistically insignificant.
I just checked the website you mentioned, and it only lists rapes reported. It doesn't actually say how many were successfully prosecuted, so I'd be curious to see how many of those charges were actually dropped or otherwise not followed through.

The vast majority. Rapes are horrendously difficult to prosecute. Add on to that the fact that less than 40% get reported...

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-01-13 02:11am

Alyrium Denryle wrote: You have yet to actually demonstrate that it is an absurd waste of manpower.

And here I was under the impression that asking someone to prove a negative was fallacious. Where's the evidence that it would be any more effectively implemented than the national no-fly list has been for catching terrorists?

Additionally, many murders, rapes, and assaults are committed by people with no prior records.

At the same time the majority of murders, rapes and assaults are committed by people the victims knew. Eliminating the most probable suspects shouldn't require a massive database.

As for getting the sample, legally compelling someone to have the sample taken is usually all that is needed. If they dont make it retroactive and simply have it done at birth, at school, as a condition for getting or renewing a drivers license etc etc etc it should not be that hard. It is a cheek swab. Dont even have to deal with fear of needles.

I don't have a problem with the methods, but people get touchy over something as simple as a national ID. Expecting the populace to easily accept something involving their DNA is going to cause a lot of fear-mongering.

Metatwaddle · Post by **Metatwaddle** » 2008-01-13 04:09am

General Zod wrote:
Discombobulated wrote:Statistically insignificant? The Rape and Incest National Network says that 1 in 6 American women have been victims of sexual assault. That doesn't mean 1 in 6 men are rapists, but the group of men that are rapists is not statistically insignificant.
I just checked the website you mentioned, and it only lists rapes reported. It doesn't actually say how many were successfully prosecuted, so I'd be curious to see how many of those charges were actually dropped or otherwise not followed through.

That's on the site, too. If the rape is reported, there's only a 50.8% chance that an arrest will be made (I'm not sure why). Of those, 80% result in a prosecution, and 58% of those prosecuted end up in a felony conviction. By the end of it, there's only a 23.6% chance that a rape reported to the police will end up in a felony conviction, and only about two-thirds of those convicted go to jail, which I find completely incomprehensible.

I suppose in a world where there was a DNA database, it's the 58% number (percent of prosecuted cases which result in a conviction) that would increase.