TUSKs in Iraq

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Obviously its not designed to protect the TC from top sniper fire; rather fire and blasts from the sides. You cant have it all and a remote weapons station is ridiculously expensaive.

Then what is the fucking point of even having it, when it is well known in Iraq that sniper fire is common? The Israelis themselves mounted remote stations on their tanks for the explicit purpose so that the commander won't be used for target practice.

[MKSheppard]

The ORIGINAL TUSK design had a RWS; but I think they were ditched after initial crew testing with the pre-production TUSK versions; as the crews didn't like them; as they were unreliable, and obstructed vision when unbuttoned.

[TheMuffinKing]

The obvious question is where the hell is the ARENA or Trophy, much more than an armored bubble.

Then it's obvious they don't really give a fuck.

That or the fact that that a good dose of notmadehereitis combined with cost and competing projects in the pipeline that are potentially more effective in every respect. Besides, those systems can be saturated with mass volley fire from rpgs.

[Sarevok]

That or the fact that that a good dose of notmadehereitis combined with cost and competing projects in the pipeline that are potentially more effective in every respect. Besides, those systems can be saturated with mass volley fire from rpgs.

Why would the fact it can be overwhelmed by mass RPG volleys disqualify Trophy and similar defenses ?

The system is not perfect but nothing is. It is much better than avoiding RPGs by luck and at 300K a Trophy system is affordable.

[brianeyci]

The obvious question is where the hell is the ARENA or Trophy, much more than an armored bubble.

Then it's obvious they don't really give a fuck.

That or the fact that that a good dose of notmadehereitis combined with cost and competing projects in the pipeline that are potentially more effective in every respect. Besides, those systems can be saturated with mass volley fire from rpgs.

"Notmadehereitis" is just another way of saying they don't give a fuck! If they gave a fuck, they would pull no stops in giving the soldiers the best protection possible, rather than protecting contracts with Raytheon. Which is the stated reason for not giving the troops this system right now: to preserve contracts for a non-existant system with Raytheon which will come out in 2011.

I am looking at the TUSK picture, and looking at how retarded it is. Remote control machine gun? Unnecessary with a proper screen of infantry supporting the tanks. Birdcage armor in the rear? Tanks should not even be exposing their rear; might as well put birdcage armor over the whole tank. Shield for the gunner? The cupola has already been mentioned. Phone between infantry and tanks? Shouldn't that exist already? Thermal sight? What the fuck does that have to do with urban survival, shouldn't night vision be standard anywhere? So it leads to the obvious conclusion the TUSK system itself is a big glut, designed to profit as much as possible while giving minimal real protection to the troops, and claiming to be an urban improvement when it is really a general improvement of minor relevance to urban fighting.

In other words, they don't give a fuck.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Obviously its not designed to protect the TC from top sniper fire; rather fire and blasts from the sides. You cant have it all and a remote weapons station is ridiculously expensaive.

Then what is the fucking point of even having it, when it is well known in Iraq that sniper fire is common? The Israelis themselves mounted remote stations on their tanks for the explicit purpose so that the commander won't be used for target practice.

And so are IEDs and ambushes; reducing the danger of these for minimum cost = good

[MKSheppard]

"Notmadehereitis" is just another way of saying they don't give a fuck! If they gave a fuck, they would pull no stops in giving the soldiers the best protection possible, rather than protecting contracts with Raytheon. Which is the stated reason for not giving the troops this system right now: to preserve contracts for a non-existant system with Raytheon which will come out in 2011.

Even if we issued a contract to buy TROPHY; it would take several years before it could be installed on combat units; due to safety testing and all sorts of things -- the Army likes to take a tank gun, put a garden hose above it spraying water everywhere, and then freeze the dripping gun solid; as in 1" icecicles hanging off the gun; and then fire it. Same with taking a 120mm round, and immersing it into a barrel of oil for several days, and then firing it, even though in real life, nobody would be stupid enough to do both examples....

They have to certify the system as being insensitive and safe, and that's going to take a while -- you'll have to set up a fully integrated tank with it, and then bombard it with all sorts of random radio signals from across the spectrum; do several hundred hours of trials of moving the tank around in every possible combination; so that a stray radio signal from the tank's electronics or someone's cell phone causes teh system to fire off by itself and decapicate a loader.

I am looking at the TUSK picture, and looking at how retarded it is. Remote control machine gun? Unnecessary with a proper screen of infantry supporting the tanks.

Because we all know that infantry is bullet proof.....

Shield for the gunner? The cupola has already been mentioned.

The reason they got rid of the Cupola with the M-1 was because it made the tank significantly higher, and constituted a very large weak spot in the armor scheme of the tank. The Israelis back in the day used to modify the M-48s and M-60s they got from us, with low profile tank commander hatches of the kind we use now.

Phone between infantry and tanks? Shouldn't that exist already?

Nope. Even though there are examples of said phones being installed by maintenance shops back in WWII for the same reason, it got lost to history.

Thermal sight? What the fuck does that have to do with urban survival, shouldn't night vision be standard anywhere?

It lets you see to a greater extent than standard low level intensification; and you can see people hiding behind cover somewhat.

In other words, they don't give a fuck.

No, this is the best that could be implemented as fast as possible using as much off the shelf components as possible -- nothing is revolutionary -- I think the Explosive Reactive Armor blocks on the side skirts are modifications of the same system in use on Bradleys....

[Coyote]

I am looking at the TUSK picture, and looking at how retarded it is. Remote control machine gun? Unnecessary with a proper screen of infantry supporting the tanks.

The M1 series has had remote-controlled guns since its inception-- the commanders cupola is a RWS; I've fired them before from inside. It's not anew thing made just for this.

Birdcage armor in the rear? Tanks should not even be exposing their rear; might as well put birdcage armor over the whole tank.

That's not birdvage armor, that's part of the 'bustle rack' for cargo carrying-- additional gear plus the soldiers' personal items.

Shield for the gunner? The cupola has already been mentioned.

Who the fuck wouldn't want an extra shield for the loader (the gunner sits internally, by the gun, in front of the commander. That's th eloader station with the M240. The loader is an extra set of eyes useful for scanning for threats when the tank is moving but not buttoned up under direct fire. A shell will already be loaded ("Battle-carry") beforehand. If fire comes in, the loader drops down and prepared to load the next round while the gunner has something to shoot. A smart sniper would take out the loader if the commander is too hard to hit, because killing the loader cuts the tank's efficiency waaaayyyyy down.

Phone between infantry and tanks? Shouldn't that exist already?

Ya got one right...

Thermal sight? What the fuck does that have to do with urban survival, shouldn't night vision be standard anywhere?

Good call on thermals, but a phone is good because it is not another damn radio subject to traffic.

TUSK gives a lot of advantages but there is room to improve. I agree that the exclusion of Trophy is criminally negligent.

[MKSheppard]

The M1 series has had remote-controlled guns since its inception-- the commanders cupola is a RWS; I've fired them before from inside. It's not anew thing made just for this.

Actually, the ability to fire the Tank Commander's .50 Caliber from under armor was removed in the M1A2.

[FSTargetDrone]

Okay, so can someone here who has served in an M1 crew (or any tank crew, for that matter), in Iraq, or any other situation where you are dealing with primarily an urban situation, would you want a fully-armored "bubble" composed of those clear panels around your commander's station on the turret? Something like the one seen on the Humvee on the first page, but perhaps a bit smaller? Something you could have removed without too much trouble/time if the need arose?

[FSTargetDrone]

Btw, here are some pictures of two vehicles in Iraq that have the birdcage or slat armor all around, including the rear:





And here is an M1 with the TUSK package showing slat armor to its rear:



It appears to be a photo taken outside of Iraq (note the snow on the ground), so maybe it was just for evaluation?

[Sea Skimmer]

The obvious question is where the hell is the ARENA or Trophy, much more than an armored bubble.

Then it's obvious they don't really give a fuck.

No it’s just obvious that you have no fucking clue what you’re talking about. Active
Protection Systems SUCK right now which is why not one western army uses them. At least 25 different designs are on the market, and if your main threat is an RPG then you are absurdly better off using physical armor which will not fail. Guess what? TUSK adds physical armor to the hull sides, turret sides and rear hull, covering all the vulnerable spots with great reliability.

Trophy would cost well over a million bucks per vehicle, while being easily set on fire or exploded by enemy weapons as it has no protection its self, it can’t run off the electrical power supplies used by US vehicles without extensive modifications and even with the new autoloader it can only handle a couple shots from any one direction before its out of ammo. The original version Rafael offered to the US Army didn’t even have the autoloader and was a complete joke as a combat ready system. It’s never been tested in an urban environment, when the radar is going to get confused as shit, and you can be damn sure its going to end up killing friendly’s when it does decide to fire.

Then what is the fucking point of even having it, when it is well known in Iraq that sniper fire is common? The Israelis themselves mounted remote stations on their tanks for the explicit purpose so that the commander won't be used for target practice.

The Israelis also face an enemy with FAR LESS FIREPOWER then insurgents in Iraq, which lets them get away with all those massive yet very thin skinned commanders cupolas on tanks and APCs. The tactics and equipment they use are not the end all of urban combat, quite the opposite in fact. In Iraq visibility is vital, which is why you see so many transparent gun shields on hummves. If you start putting cupolas on the roof of an M1 then you’ll just fuck over visibility for everyone, and get all sorts of extra mutual interference problems between the different machine gun stations and the CITV

[brianeyci]

No it’s just obvious that you have no fucking clue what you’re talking about. Active
Protection Systems SUCK right now which is why not one western army uses them. At least 25 different designs are on the market, and if your main threat is an RPG then you are absurdly better off using physical armor which will not fail. Guess what? TUSK adds physical armor to the hull sides, turret sides and rear hull, covering all the vulnerable spots with great reliability.

Trophy would cost well over a million bucks per vehicle, while being easily set on fire or exploded by enemy weapons as it has no protection its self, it can’t run off the electrical power supplies used by US vehicles without extensive modifications and even with the new autoloader it can only handle a couple shots from any one direction before its out of ammo. The original version Rafael offered to the US Army didn’t even have the autoloader and was a complete joke as a combat ready system. It’s never been tested in an urban environment, when the radar is going to get confused as shit, and you can be damn sure its going to end up killing friendly’s when it does decide to fire.

Wow time for pointless military trivia. I know that the news reported Trophy and ARENA, and reported that they delayed the system for Raytheon's system which is completely untested and completely uncreated. A imperfect system is better than no system, and the last time this was brought up on this forum was a 300k price tag, not one million. It was even the general consensus of the forum that such a system could be fielded, and there's no way you missed the thread (unless you were away that time, you were away for awhile.) So fuck you!

The main difference in urban warfare is a three dimensional battlefield. Any system which touts it as an "urban survival kit" should address the main concern of urban fighting -- that is a three dimensional battlefield. Rocket propelled grenades/Anti-tank missile to the top and in particular improvised explosive devices from the bottom. Where is the cell phone jammer? Where are the uparmored bottom or even mine plow (if there's something wrong with mine plow I'm listening)? Where is the additional armor in the bottom and the top of the tank, where the tank faces additional threats in urban warfare? The most vulnerable parts of a tank are the rear, bottom and top. This is rather obvious to me, and you mention the sides? Come on man. You were the one who said no modern RPG's being fielded in Iraq, and tell me honestly that the sides can't survive a RPG hit before TUSK.

Missing that? Then don't call it urban survival kit. It's obvious to me it sucks as such, and the only reason it isn't to you is you're too immersed in trivia. If there's 25 different systems ready for deployment, then it's an even greater indictment as far as I'm concerned.

How is Israel not a Western army?

[Coyote]

The main difference in urban warfare is a three dimensional battlefield. Any system which touts it as an "urban survival kit" should address the main concern of urban fighting -- that is a three dimensional battlefield.

TUSK does address some of the shortcomings with easy-on, quick-to-apply off the shelf tech that doesn't require a complete redesign of the tank. So it is by no means perfect, but it is better than what there was before.

Where is the cell phone jammer?

On an electronic warfare vehicle.

Where are the uparmored bottom or even mine plow (if there's something wrong with mine plow I'm listening)?

Mine plows slow vehicles down a lot and they tear up the roads.

Where is the additional armor in the bottom and the top of the tank, where the tank faces additional threats in urban warfare? The most vulnerable parts of a tank are the rear, bottom and top. This is rather obvious to me, and you mention the sides? Come on man. You were the one who said no modern RPG's being fielded in Iraq, and tell me honestly that the sides can't survive a RPG hit before TUSK.

There are two types of kill for a tank: M-Kill and K-Kill. M is for Mobility. An RPG cannot wipe out a tank completely (a K-Kill) but it can destroy its ability to move. A pinned tank is a doomed tank-- eventually. If the enemy can get the tank to burn before the US can arrive with a retrieval team, it's all over. I saw at least two burned M1 hulks over there, one during Fallujah-II, one on a trailer left over from the initial invasion.

Missing that? Then don't call it urban survival kit. It's obvious to me it sucks as such, and the only reason it isn't to you is you're too immersed in trivia. If there's 25 different systems ready for deployment, then it's an even greater indictment as far as I'm concerned.

It's as much an urban survival kit as we have right now. The TUSK system is really a step up from the cagework armor of the Strykers.

How is Israel not a Western army?

What Skim said about their equipment facing a different threat is right. Not everything they make will be useful to us. However, I agree with you that Trophy should be added as one more layer of protection. I don't know when Trophy was made, I think TUSK was already developed when Trophy was made public but I could be mistaken. Adding Trophy for a "TUSK-II" package would be good.

[Coyote]

The M1 series has had remote-controlled guns since its inception-- the commanders cupola is a RWS; I've fired them before from inside. It's not anew thing made just for this.

Actually, the ability to fire the Tank Commander's .50 Caliber from under armor was removed in the M1A2.

That's just sick and wrong. But what about the target-acquisition and rangefinder that was supposed to be on the commander's MG ring? If they can put that on it, why not the RWS?

Now that tank has only it's main gun and coax for button-up ops. Stewpid.

[Coyote]

Okay, so can someone here who has served in an M1 crew (or any tank crew, for that matter), in Iraq, or any other situation where you are dealing with primarily an urban situation, would you want a fully-armored "bubble" composed of those clear panels around your commander's station on the turret? Something like the one seen on the Humvee on the first page, but perhaps a bit smaller? Something you could have removed without too much trouble/time if the need arose?

If you're in an urban environment that is that hairy, best to just go all buttoned up or with remote turrets equipped with TV cameras, like we're seeing some more of these days. My opinion, anyway.

[Sidewinder]

Regarding the problem of using a mounted machine gun while the vehicle is "buttoned up": Why not install the Israeli Overhead Weapons Station or OWS-25? (Note where the gunner's head is in the first photo under "OWS-25"-- he can see out without exposing himself.) Do those systems have a design flaw that make them impractical to install on US military vehicles?

[Coyote]

Regarding the problem of using a mounted machine gun while the vehicle is "buttoned up": Why not install the Israeli Overhead Weapons Station or OWS-25? (Note where the gunner's head is in the first photo under "OWS-25"-- he can see out without exposing himself.) Do those systems have a design flaw that make them impractical to install on US military vehicles?

The only "flaw" I'd wager is another case of "notemadehere-itis", perhaps. We have stuff like that, though, but the ones I've seen are bigger, more complex. Must be a US Army design!

[Ma Deuce]

Trophy would cost well over a million bucks per vehicle, while being easily set on fire or exploded by enemy weapons as it has no protection its self, it can’t run off the electrical power supplies used by US vehicles without extensive modifications and even with the new autoloader it can only handle a couple shots from any one direction before its out of ammo.

Additionally, don't current active protection systems like Trophy and ARENA have a not-inconsiderable minimum engagement range? If so, then it might be of limited value in urban engagements, though I could see it's value for convoy escort.

Besides, I thought one of the main selling points of TUSK was that it could be simply bolted on in the field, without the need to recall the vehicle to a service depot. Last I checked, no active protection system can simply be field installed like that.

[Raxmei]

Where is the cell phone jammer?

You can't see it in most of the pics because the camera angle's wrong, and it doesn't look like much anyway.

[Sea Skimmer]

Additionally, don't current active protection systems like Trophy and ARENA have a not-inconsiderable minimum engagement range? If so, then it might be of limited value in urban engagements, though I could see its value for convoy escort.

The minimal range on these systems isn’t that big, but the system needs to be able to track the incoming RPG for some distance outside of that in ordered to decide it’s a threat, and that distance had better not be cluttered by other traffic, trash cans, sheet metal roofs ect…. This is all more then enough to cause trouble on a city street. It would have no real value for escorting other vehicles; these systems only shoot at projectiles coming directly at the vehicle they are mounted on, in ordered to reduce the chances of the thing shooting at one of your own missiles or say power lines.

Besides, I thought one of the main selling points of TUSK was that it could be simply bolted on in the field, without the need to recall the vehicle to a service depot. Last I checked, no active protection system can simply be field installed like that.

Well originally TUSK was going to be a depot level upgrade of about 750 tanks, but funding for that was canceled, in favor of MRAPs among other things, so ever since then the Army has just been throwing together as many kits as it can out of whatever spare funds it can find. It was however indeed always intended to be field installable.

Not only would field installing active protection be impossible, the setup for each type of vehicle would need to be rigorously tested and designed back in the US first and this would easily take several years. Existing Israeli life fire tests of Trophy are not something to be impressed with.

[Ma Deuce]

The minimal range on these systems isn’t that big, but the system needs to be able to track the incoming RPG for some distance outside of that in ordered to decide it’s a threat

What kind of distance are we talking about here: 50 meters? 100 meters?

[Sea Skimmer]

Around 50 meters.

High tech solution are great, sometimes, but this is using way too much technology to defeat way too simple a threat. If the insurgents had anti tank missiles and higher caliber tandem charge RPGs then the need to deploy such an expensive and risky technology without full testing might have more significant. As it is for TUSK, some reactive tiles we type classified before the war even started along with spaced armor do everything Trophy could.

[Pu-239]

Aren't the ERA blocks on the sides dangerous for accompanying infantry? Or is that something else?

[Sea Skimmer]

The reactive armor being used by the US Army doesn’t totally convert the outer plate of a tile into shrapnel when the tile explodes, making a fair bit safer (though still not safe) compared to the stuff everyone had in the 1980s. Bradley’s have been using the same reactive armor tiles since 2002, though that protection didn’t become common until well into 2004.