Here's a good one.

[Darwin]

In response to:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus

http://leftofzen.com/quotes-atheism/2008/01/14/

Oh, and for all you "We were founded on christian principals" people:

Shake off all fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
- Jefferson

I saw this from a poster I've known to be a creationist and traditionally irrational atheist-hater:

Oh, you know this is too good to leave alone.

As for the Epicurus quote, clearly he did not consider free will into the equation or even what the Bible teaches.

God is omnipotent but there are some things He cannot do. He cannot violate his own moral law (he cannot sin), and he cannot force people to love him or force them to act against their own free will. God made man in his image and therefore God respects the freedom of choice he instilled in us that is a reflection of himself.

And as for the problem of evil, the Bible clearly says that God IS going to rid the world of all evil, pain, and suffering. He is going to restore the world, make it new, and make it more glorious that it ever was before. God also did something actively against evil when he took on the form of a man and died on the cross, thereby conquering death and sin forever. That single act began to unravel the thread of evil and death.

I just love how you and every other person who wants to deny the overwhelmingly Christian heritage of the United States by quoting Thomas Jefferson, who was of course the -least- religious of the founding fathers. Yet it was Thomas Jefferson who wrote in the Declaration of Independence "we hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights." Odd how he would write that if he was so anti-God and religion in playing a part in politics. The quote you used here is no argument against Christianity being apart of our founding principles either.

I'm sorry but the idea of democracy, freedom, and innate human value and rights are THEISTIC and CHRISTIAN principles! Yes, even the idea of the church and the state being separate in terms of political authority is a Christian principle! Jesus taught it. The whole philosophical logic supporting the notion that humans are entitled to individual rights demands that humans have intrinsic value and the only worldviews that promote intrinsic value in humans are the theistic religions. Even Jefferson knew that and that's why he wrote what he did.

A few more quotes to address:

"Our ignorance is God; what we know is science." -Robert Ingersoll

Yes. Atheists know their science and refuse to accept the implications they themselves have discovered. The will gladly abandon their self-proclaimed and cherished objective reason when the conclusions are not to their liking.

"Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities." -Voltaire

Very true. Believing that there is no god is an absurdity and atheists have committed more atrocities than any other single group.

"The most henious and the must cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives." -Ghandi

Perhaps, but atheists are among those cruel crimes having committed more of them than any religious group. Over 100 million people in the last century alone were slaughtered by atheists, a much larger number than the total number of people killed in the name of religion over the last 2000 years.

Atheism has also not made all the positive contributions to art, literature, music, politics, medicine, and the needy and suffering that religion has, particularly Christianity.

Reason, logic, and evidence point to God. God is wisdom, knowledge, and truth. "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" -Psalm 14:1

I pointed out of course how 'Atheists' in this context actually equals one man (Stalin) And gave examples of well over 100 million murders under the flag of Christiandom.

More:

Oh, I just love these The arrogance and foolishness of atheism never ceases to amaze me.

Atheistic astronomers and cosmologists once believed that the universe was eternal. It had no beginning or end. Then along came Albert Einstein who discovered General Relativity which has been mathematically proven to the fifth decimal place. Einstein's theory showed that contrary to what scientists thought, the universe had a distinct beginning in time. The results of his findings "irritated" him as he said. Why was that? Because the implications of a universe with a beginning strongly suggested and validated the theistic view of transcendent Creator. He even tried to add in some calculations to show his theory was wrong until it was proven correct in 1919 by Arthur Eddington.

Einstein's theory was also confirmed with the discovery by Edwin Hubble that the universe is expanding. Penzias and Wilson in 1965 discovered the cosmic background radiation created by the Big Bang, confirming that the universe had a beginning from a singularity. NASA discovered in the early nineties the cosmic background radiation had ripples which were so precise they showed that the explosion and expansion of the universe was set precisely enough to cause matter to congregate together to form galaxies but not collapse back on itself.

Robert Jastrow, an agnostic astronomer said "Astronomers now find they have painted themselves into a corner because they have proven, by their own methods, that the world began abruptly in an act of creation to which you can trace the seeds of every star, every planet, every living thing in this cosmos and on the earth. And they have found that all this happened as a product of forces they cannot hope to discover...That there are what I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scientifically proven fact." Eddington who found the results of Einstein's theory to be "repugnant" conceded that "The beginning seems to present insuperable difficulties unless we agree to look on it as frankly supernatural."

No atheist has provided a reasonable, logical explanation for how the universe came into existence. And since we know that the universe had a beginning as well as space-time, and that the Law of Causation is essential to scientific understanding, the universe must have had a cause and by logical implication, that cause had to have been OUTSIDE the universe, outside the physical which is exactly what supernatural means.

The cosmic rebound theory, the theory that says the universe continually expands and collapses on itself has been disproved and there is no scientific evidence to support it. It contradicts the Law of Entropy. And even if there was, you'd still have to explain the initial bang. Stephen Hawking made up "imaginary time" as an explanation which he even concedes is just an imaginary theory and just a proposal he made up with no scientific evidence. Atkins tried to use bogus "mathematical points" to explain the creation of the Big Bang and Issac Asimov tried to explain it with "positive and negative energy" neither of which has any scientific evidence to support it. Now there are all kinds of ridiculous theories that sound every bit as mystical as the idea of God.

You want to talk about reason? How is that when you atheists who pride yourselves on your reason and logic are presented with valid scientific fact that supports theism you abandon all reason and will come up with anything to explain away the possibility of God?

To quote Jastrow again, "It turns out that the scientist behaves the way the rest of us do when our beliefs are in conflict with the evidence. We become irritated, we pretend the conflict does not exist, or we paper it over with meaningless phrases."

And, "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

And more..

The lack of agreement between scientists on the creation of the universe is irrelevant to my argument. The problem is that virtually every explanation scientists have come up for to explain the emergence of matter and energy from nothing is very unscientific. They're just fabricating audacious, unsupported theories that require far more faith to believe in than God does. In doing so, they have abandoned their resolve and dedication to supposed objective analysis. Why? Because they want to look for any other explanation BESIDES God, even when God makes the most logical sense. That is why Einstein and others found their results to be "irritating" and "repugnant" because they themselves conceded that the evidence suggested that the idea of God creating the universe was highly plausible. And atheists don't want to believe in God because that would mean that there is an authority greater than their own intelligence and egos.

The other point that you seem to miss is logic. Science is founded on the Law of Causation. For every effect their is a cause. That's what science tries to find, causes. "What caused this?" "Why does that do what it does?" You are completely wrong about the scientific method. The scientific method does not attempt to explain the unexplainable, the scientific method attempts to explain what -is- explainable. In other words, science attempts to explain the physical and the tangible (nature and the universe) and it is limited to those things. Science cannot explain that which lies outside nature and the physical universe. The fact that the physical universe had a definite beginning, and that without the universe there is no physicality, says by logical implication and the Law of Causality that the universe had a cause. Because all that is natural (matter and energy) lies in the universe itself, whatever caused the universe must logically be something outside nature. The universe did not create itself, that is a self-defeating and absurd argument. So something outside nature created the universe. The word "supernatural" literally means outside or above nature. Therefore, whatever created the universe is by logical deduction, supernatural.

Given all the other attributes about the universe, the most reasonable conclusion would be that whatever caused the universe had some kind of intelligence. So far, God is the most simple and logical explanation for the creation of the universe. And if Ockham's razor is true, the simplest explanation tends to be the best one. God is the best explanation.

Yeah, the Occam's Razor one is a winner, isn't it? At least he isn't a Young Earth Creationist, accepts the current timescale and the Big Bang and Evolution in at least some form.. but MY GOD. Where do I even start here?

[Oskuro]

God is omnipotent but there are some things He cannot do. He cannot violate his own moral law (he cannot sin), and he cannot force people to love him or force them to act against their own free will.

Yay for omnipotence!

God made man in his image and therefore God respects the freedom of choice he instilled in us that is a reflection of himself.
<snip>
And as for the problem of evil, the Bible clearly says that God IS going to rid the world of all evil, pain, and suffering. He is going to restore the world, make it new, and make it more glorious that it ever was before.

Thus he is unwilling to prevent evil, thus he is malevolent.

<snip attempt at nitpicking at Jefferson's wording to alter the intent of his writings>

I'm sorry but the idea of democracy, freedom, and innate human value and rights are THEISTIC and CHRISTIAN principles! <snip the rest of this nonsense>

It might be a little too bold of me to say but... has this guy ever read the bible?

"Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities." -Voltaire

Very true. Believing that there is no god is an absurdity and atheists have committed more atrocities than any other single group.

Holy Shit! Did he just turn that quote around and add some anti-atheist propaganda to boot?!



Anyway, I'm not a seasoned debater, but this guy, appart from having serious misconceptions about the scientific method (or about what science is about), seems to assume that anything left unexplained must inevitably lead to GOD as the only explanation... Something further highlighted by his complete failure at providing any support to his claims, appart from his fallacious attacks on science and his hatemongering towards atheists.

That bit about the Voltaire quote really had me staring in amazement at my monitor, though.

[Ritterin Sophia]

'Free Will'? Remind me, did Genesis not specifically state that by eating of the Fruit of Knowledge that Adam and Eve gained the knowledge of Good and Evil, and thus would have been incapable of distinguishing between right and wrong? Would that not contradict with this thing called 'Free Will'?

Isn't God also supposed to be omniscient and thus knew it was going to happen, thus none of us could have free will, we're all just following some predestined plan?

[The Spartan]

Isn't God also supposed to be omniscient and thus knew it was going to happen, thus none of us could have free will, we're all just following some predestined plan?

Free will and god's plan for us are like train tracks, they never cross but they always move in the same direction. So, somehow, you have both.

Or, at least, that was how they tried to explain it to me when I still went to church. I think I was 17 at the time. I didn't like that explination even then. If I had to pick any one point, that would probably be the one where my faith began it's decline. It took a few years but that was probably the starting point.

[Darwin]

Yeah, he's been getting shredded from multiple angles. of course like a bad Trekkie, he doesn't realize it.

god gives us free will, but punishes us if we exercise it. Brilliant! Malevolent, but brilliant.

And what you say about Einstein still supports my argument. The cosmological constant is exactly the faulty equation he added in which was later proven false by Hubble. You say all relativity proved was universal expansion. But doesn't universal expansion by logical implication suggest the universe had a beginning? If the universe is expanding then is had to expand from a point. Or if you just move everything backwards, the universe eventually shrinks back into nothing. In order for the universe to have been eternal, the cosmological constant would have to be supported and it wasn't. That's the point. Please excuse me for mentioning Einstein. I didn't realize that Einstein was too sacred for the likes of me to mention. How dare I even speak his name.

What scientists get pissy about is the theists slapping the book closed any time they get a hint of some evidence for a higher power.

No, I'm afraid you are mistaken. The scientist I mentioned were not aggravated because of theists, they were aggravated by the results of their finding and the implications of their findings. They themselves even stated the reasons why it upset them. They knew the evidence they had found suggested, or at least made the possibility very likely that God or a higher power created the universe. Now why would that bother them? It had little to do with intellectual resistance but emotional or volitional resistance against the idea of God. For whatever reason, they didn't like the idea of God existing. Fortunately, most of these people were pretty good scientists and didn't abandon the evidence even though they didn't like what they found.

Friedrich Nietzsche profoundly exemplified this when he said, "If one were to prove this God of the Christians to us, we should be even less able to believe in him." Most atheists, especially scientific atheists, don't -want- to believe in God, just like most theists don't want to believe there isn't God.

And sure, God may never be more than a theory from a scientific standpoint, but the question is what theory makes the most sense and fits the most evidence. So far I have not seen a better or more logical explanation than God for the creation of the universe.

I also called him on 'atheist atrocities'. And of course, Hitler wasn't Christian. Except that he totally was.

God is omnipotent but there are some things He cannot do.

That's totally self-contradictory right there.

No, it isn't. There are some things God cannot do in terms of violating his character. That is not because he is powerless to do it, his nature forbids him from doing it. Do not confuse power with character and nature. Omnipotent means "all powerful" and God is "all powerful." He created all things from nothing and has dominion over everything. You can't really have more power than that, now can you?

I'm sorry, but the founding father's were not all deists. That is simply not true. Jefferson was a deist, yes, but most of the other founding fathers were definitely Christian.

And yes, I agree with you that the founders set up a secular government. I never said the United States government was Christian. I said America's heritage is Christian. Big difference.

Obviously you completely missed, yet again, what I said. Jefferson said that "we hold these truths to be self-evident." Why? Because "that all men are created equal, endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights." These truths are self-evident because of our notion that human beings have values and rights GIVEN by their Creator. You cannot leave out one part of the statement and ignore the rest of it.

Hitler was not a Christian. That's complete nonsense. He used Christianity as a political ploy. Most of Germany was Christian (Protestant) and it wouldn't be very wise for Hitler to openly oppose Christianity. Nevermind he had thousands of Polish Catholics killed in the Holocaust which negates your idea that the Catholic church supported Hitler. Yes, Hitler had Christians killed too.

Most of your "atheist" death toll comes from one man.

No, that's completely false. Stalin wasn't the only one. Pol Pot, Mao Zedong (who killed almost as many people as Stalin did), and virtually every other communist country and dictator in the last century. The totals deaths caused by atheist Marxism numbers over 100 million. That's way more than the total number of deaths attributed to Christianity in the last 2000 years.

I'm also not going to accept the idea that Christians are responsible for all the deaths of the Native Americans.

And there is also another important consideration. Most of the atrocities associated with Christianity were hundreds of years ago when nearly everyone was religious, so any violence committed was done by a supposedly "religious" person. Atheism did not start becoming a more common belief and implemented into government until just a couple hundreds of years ago, particularly thanks to Karl Marx and the popularity of communism and the so-called "Enlightenment" period. Christianity has been around for 2000 years. Atheism, particularly Marxist atheism has only been around for 200 years. Yet the latter has done far more damage in a much shorter time. Furthermore, the atrocities committed in the name of Christ went directly against the teachings of Christ. Atheists however, have no objective moral code and Marxism taught that religion was evil and needed to be removed. So the communists were actually following their beliefs by killing people, brainwashing and torturing religious people and burning churches.

See how he completely fails to separate marxist slaughters from atheism? I followed up with clear proof that Hitler was not only Christian, but had the support of his church, etc. I think this guy is one of those that believes that morals are handed down from On High, and that Atheism is at its root evil and immoral because it lacks the Divine Guidance of God. Will see how this goes, but things are cooling down now.