Portable, practically infinite power sources?

[Zixinus]

We've seen them plenty of time, especially in video games. Guns that have their own power source, that for all practise, are unlimited. Any logistics officer dream presumably, as there is no longer the need for ammunition.

Without too much handwavium, what are its realistic possibilities? Anything is ago, as long as it has SOME basis in real-world science.

Any ideas? The power source could be separate from the gun itself. I know that in real-life, they can use Pu-238 RTGs to power pacemakers. Say if we were somehow able to convert the radiation of the radioisotopes into electric charge with high efficiency, what are the possibilities?

[Darth Wong]

An imaginary micro-fusion generator with near-100% efficiency and a kilogram of fuel would power a handgun in such a manner that one might think it has an indefinite power source, unless he actually tested it to exhaustion.

[Zixinus]

The problem is with fusion power sources, is that a significant amount of energy must go for the fusion process to sustain itself. I am unsure of the math, but I have the gut feeling that the powered required in versus the powered given out must be at a ratio that would be too big for handguns.

Also, I don't know the physics themselves, but I understand that all fusion schemes currently on the drawing board require certain amount of vacuum space for the fusion to happen. Also, even with the beloved p-b11 or even Li6-Li6, there is still some sub-percentage of gamma-radiation, which give some unintended side-effects.

I would go towards fissile or simply radioisotopic powers sources as they scale better. While there would be some charge time, shots would be practically infinite for the battlefield and then some, where the lack of ammunition can be the most fatal.

[Darth Wong]

The problem is with fusion power sources, is that a significant amount of energy must go for the fusion process to sustain itself. I am unsure of the math, but I have the gut feeling that the powered required in versus the powered given out must be at a ratio that would be too big for handguns.

You're assuming that the device uses a tokomak design. If we're talking about a sufficiently futuristic sci-fi world, you might as well just treat it as a black box.

Also, I don't know the physics themselves, but I understand that all fusion schemes currently on the drawing board require certain amount of vacuum space for the fusion to happen. Also, even with the beloved p-b11 or even Li6-Li6, there is still some sub-percentage of gamma-radiation, which give some unintended side-effects.

So? You asked for some ridiculous near-infinite hand-held power source which can be at least vaguely tied to real physics. You won't do better than a tiny, well-shielded fusion reactor.

I would go towards fissile or simply radioisotopic powers sources as they scale better. While there would be some charge time, shots would be practically infinite for the battlefield and then some, where the lack of ammunition can be the most fatal.

If you want megawatt-range lasers, you're going to have a hell of a time powering them off radioisotope decay.

[Ford Prefect]

If we're being arbitrarily advanced, yet keeping a vague semblance of real science here, you really can't go past a fist full of anti-protons for that combination of energy density and ludicrously dangerous properties.

[Shroom Man 777]

I always liked that super-M16 carbine with a double-drum barrel in Metal Gear Solid 3. It had infinite ammo by virtue of the bullets inside the drum magazine forming a Mobius-loop.

Sigint: "That'll give your gun infinite ammunition."

Snake: "Yep, that'll do the trick."

[Zixinus]

So? You asked for some ridiculous near-infinite hand-held power source which can be at least vaguely tied to real physics. You won't do better than a tiny, well-shielded fusion reactor.

And any other idea that includes less handvawium?

If you want megawatt-range lasers, you're going to have a hell of a time powering them off radioisotope decay.

Who says I need megawatt powered lasers? According to Atomic Rocket you need a kilojoule or so to damage a human target, perhaps a bit more in the case of armour. That amount of energy is in .44 Rem. magnum guns, and nearly twice that much in a .50 Action Express ( according to this chart: http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am02-e.htm). This assumes a really high conversion efficiency of course on the laser's behalf, but that is not necessarily impossible.

If we're being arbitrarily advanced, yet keeping a vague semblance of real science here, you really can't go past a fist full of anti-protons for that combination of energy density and ludicrously dangerous properties.

Well, sure in energy density, but how are you going to convert that energy on demand?

What I am interested is the energy given by radioactive decay of various radioactive elements. I know that there is something called "alphavoltics" the idea to use the charge of alpha radiation to directly gain electric current with similar methods as they do in photovoltics.

[Lord of the Abyss]

A few random ideas :

A fusion or fission powered gun that extracts and compresses the carbon in air into diamond darts and fires them. If the fusion version can be powered by atmospheric water vapor, even the power source will be effectively unlimited.

For the high end, a gun with a wormhole in it. Either the wormhole powers the gun ( either a version of the diamond dart gun or a laser ), or the wormhole itself is the source of the projectile or beam. In the latter case, the gun and ammunition supply on the other end can be as big as you like.

[Ariphaos]

And any other idea that includes less handvawium?

Fusion is about as good as you get. It's safe. It's light. It's very energy-dense. It gets depleted, its efficiency does not decay. In theory, an arbitrary amount of power can be called upon on demand. It emits waste heat only when in use. There are few logistics issues. It can be turned off. Your radiotherms have none of these advantages.

Who says I need megawatt powered lasers? According to Atomic Rocket you need a kilojoule or so to damage a human target, perhaps a bit more in the case of armour. That amount of energy is in .44 Rem. magnum guns, and nearly twice that much in a .50 Action Express ( according to this chart: http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am02-e.htm). This assumes a really high conversion efficiency of course on the laser's behalf, but that is not necessarily impossible.

Genetic engineering? Drones? Human flesh is weak and can stand for some pretty substantial improvement as is. A drone in my own setting is an absolute nightmare for an organic character to handle without magic.

What I am interested is the energy given by radioactive decay of various radioactive elements. I know that there is something called "alphavoltics" the idea to use the charge of alpha radiation to directly gain electric current with similar methods as they do in photovoltics.

Polonium 210 generates ~140 watts per gram according to Wikipedia. It has a half-life of 138 days and is one of the most toxic isotopes in Earth's natural arsenal, with micrograms being fatal.

The energy density is pretty impressive - about 2.5 gigajoules/gram. Compare to ~140 kilojoules/gram for liquid hydrogen.

Or ~600 gigajoules/gram for deuterium.

However, if you want to kill people with it, just put the stuff in bullets.

----

My own favored 'unlimited energy source' is of course the dimensional tap. Another alternative is a universal energy field of some sort ('zero point energy' as some wish it to be).

[Turin]

If you want megawatt-range lasers, you're going to have a hell of a time powering them off radioisotope decay.

Who says I need megawatt powered lasers? According to Atomic Rocket you need a kilojoule or so to damage a human target, perhaps a bit more in the case of armour.

Ahem. You may very well need a megawatt laser to put a kilojoule of energy into a target, unless you plan on sitting there with the laser on them for a full second. A 1MW laser puts 1KJ on target in 1/1000th of a second -- probably faster than you need, but only by an order of magnitude and that's easily accounted for in inefficiencies between power source and output.

[Darth Wong]

So? You asked for some ridiculous near-infinite hand-held power source which can be at least vaguely tied to real physics. You won't do better than a tiny, well-shielded fusion reactor.

And any other idea that includes less handvawium?

What, like your micro-fission reactor that fits into a pistol handgrip? How is that any more reasonable?

If you want megawatt-range lasers, you're going to have a hell of a time powering them off radioisotope decay.

Who says I need megawatt powered lasers? According to Atomic Rocket you need a kilojoule or so to damage a human target, perhaps a bit more in the case of armour. That amount of energy is in .44 Rem. magnum guns, and nearly twice that much in a .50 Action Express ( according to this chart: http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am02-e.htm). This assumes a really high conversion efficiency of course on the laser's behalf, but that is not necessarily impossible.

A bullet can also quit easily dump its energy into your body in 1 millisecond (remember, even a slow 300 m/s bullet travels 1 foot per millisecond). In order to put a 1 millisecond 1 kJ pulse on someone, you need a 1 megawatt laser. How long do you expect to be able to focus the laser on the target? And what if the guy has some kind of highly reflective armour?

What I am interested is the energy given by radioactive decay of various radioactive elements. I know that there is something called "alphavoltics" the idea to use the charge of alpha radiation to directly gain electric current with similar methods as they do in photovoltics.

Natural radioactive decay won't give you anywhere near enough power and makes absolutely no sense as a replacement for batteries since you need some sort of battery or capacitor to hold the power output it generates on a steady state basis anyway. Nuclear fission is better, but if you're going to go that route, why not go with a micro-fusion reactor? What makes you think a pistol grip-sized fission reactor is any less "handwavium" than a fusion one, especially since it will be much more power-limited?

[Zixinus]

Your radiotherms have none of these advantages.

On the other hand, the radiotherms will function as long as they either withstand the radiation bombardment or deplete their half-life. You need to jump-start the fusion process for it to work. Once you turn off the reactor, its turned off for good unless you have another, bigger one at hand.

Polonium 210 generates ~140 watts per gram according to Wikipedia. It has a half-life of 138 days and is one of the most toxic isotopes in Earth's natural arsenal, with micrograms being fatal.

Fatal and toxic as in radioactivity? What radiation does it emit? I recall once reading about a concept to use Polonium for an actual laser weapon that is meant to be portable.

And actually, I was thinking about using Pu-238. If it is 100% pure, there would be no or ignorable side gamma-radiation, assuming the the decay material and helium can be removed.

How long do you expect to be able to focus the laser on the target?

How long would it need?

And what if the guy has some kind of highly reflective armour?

Your arguing against lasers themselves, which is a bit afar from the topic, don't you think?

Regardless, even if the target has reflective armour, even if only 10% of the energy is absorbed, then it will melt and leave a far-less deflective armour behind. It would be quite a rare case for the target to have a clothing or armour made of material more reflective then that, and I doubt these materials would withstand the abuse they would suffer on the battlefield.

You can also use wavelengths that are less reflective to most materials.

What, like your micro-fission reactor that fits into a pistol handgrip? How is that any more reasonable?

Again, the power source doesn't have to be in the weapon itself.

Natural radioactive decay won't give you anywhere near enough power and makes absolutely no sense as a replacement for batteries since you need some sort of battery or capacitor to hold the power output it generates on a steady state basis anyway.

So? The whole thing doesn't have to be in a pistol's handgrip at all costs. And even if you have to suffer a delay between shots, that is still more acceptable then running out of ammo permanently. Well, that depends on the situation, yes, but it would still have practical value, especially as a backup weapon.

Nuclear fission is better, but if you're going to go that route, why not go with a micro-fusion reactor?

Less handwavium actually. I have nothing againts the suggestion itself.

What makes you think a pistol grip-sized fission reactor is any less "handwavium" than a fusion one, especially since it will be much more power-limited?

Well, in terms of handwaving, none, as we are already handwaving.

A specific answer is scale. I am bit familiar with fusion literature (I am not true expert, that I admit but I am not totally clueless either) that most schemes requires a big vacuum chamber to work. I am not just talking about mag-conf schemes, but the few laser-inertal schemes I know and various IEC schemes I have heard about. Polywell specifically needs certain dimensions or fusion rate won't work properly, the plasma is either too dense and nuclei will be unable to fuse or are not dense enough and the nuclei will not have enough energy to fuse to begin with.

Fission, from what I know, has no such limitations, if you can miniaturize all the necessary equipment.

Now that I think about it, there is cold fusion. No, I'm not talking about the crackpotism that amateurs are doing in their garage and claim to defy everything known about fusion. There is müön catalysed fusion, where a müön uses its own charge and mass to "trick" two nuclei close enough while the müön itslef remains. This has been demonstrated in particles accerators. Perhaps something on similar principles?

[Nyrath]

More importantly, one should examine the implications of a near-infinite power source small enough to fit into a handgun.

Power failure in the city? No problem, just plug the skyscraper into your handgun.

The nuclear power plant that energizes the spacecraft's ion drive is in shutdown. Raid the arms locker for pistols to plug into the drive. (remember the ST:TOS episode The Galileo Seven? Scotty drained the power of the phasers into the shuttlecraft)

Iron Man's powered armor could have a power plant at each joint. Even the ones on his pinky finger.

Of course none of your friends want to be near you if some sniper scores a direct hit on the antimatter power pack for your pistol.

[Karza]

On the other hand, the radiotherms will function as long as they either withstand the radiation bombardment or deplete their half-life. You need to jump-start the fusion process for it to work. Once you turn off the reactor, its turned off for good unless you have another, bigger one at hand.

The fusion reactor could be used to charge a battery which would then be used to start the reactor as necessary.

How long would it need?

1kW laser would take a full second to deposit 1kJ of energy on the target.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Anti-lithium power cells. It's dense as hell, but without the need for an actual reactor. All you need is a way to store it in such a small package and an efficient power harnessing system.

[Zixinus]

More importantly, one should examine the implications of a near-infinite power source small enough to fit into a handgun.

Power failure in the city? No problem, just plug the skyscraper into your handgun.

From what I have in mind, the handgun would not be able to deliver that kind of energy.

It's practically unlimited from the standpoint of using the handgun, not more.

Besides, if the civilization already has that kind of technology, the skyscraper would already have its own power source anyway.

Anti-lithium power cells.

Ermm what? Anti-lithium? As in anti-matter anti-lithium?

[His Divine Shadow]

What about superconductive magnetic energy storage? Essentially a superconductive coil that has a large amount of energy running around and around forever in a loop, then you can tap of small amounts of electricity from this as you need.

This would be more of a super battery than a reactor. But same result maybe? I am not sure how much you could "realistically" store in such a device, assuing it would be the size of a modern handgun magazine.

Oh no nevermind, looks like it has alot of problems, but since I bothered typing this out I might as well post it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercondu ... imitations

[Ford Prefect]

Well, sure in energy density, but how are you going to convert that energy on demand?

Using my arbitrarily advanced technology to react an anti-proton with a proton and thus capturing the resulting energy given off by the reaction, thus powering my Laser Beam (TM). Naturally of course the problem here is that while my power source is going to last for yonks, my supply of lasing material may nto last as long, nor may my focussing lens.

[Darth Wong]

How long do you expect to be able to focus the laser on the target?

How long would it need?

Much too long to be shooting at moving targets from range.

And what if the guy has some kind of highly reflective armour?

Your arguing against lasers themselves, which is a bit afar from the topic, don't you think?

No I'm not. Sheer power output can overwhelm such defenses, just like a more powerful rifle can overcome modern body armour.

What, like your micro-fission reactor that fits into a pistol handgrip? How is that any more reasonable?

Again, the power source doesn't have to be in the weapon itself.

What the fuck? Is it in a backpack now?

Nuclear fission is better, but if you're going to go that route, why not go with a micro-fusion reactor?

Less handwavium actually. I have nothing againts the suggestion itself.

What the fuck makes you think it has less handwavium, apart from the fact that your knowledge of nuclear decay is apparently derived entirely from Google searches?

most schemes requires a big vacuum chamber to work

So? Nuclear fission requires a fair bit of reactant mass in order to generate a high power output. A hypothetical pellet ICF device could spike to very high pulse power quickly, thus actually meeting your requirements. And let's not even talk about this retarded idea of using natural radioactive decay to power the weapon.

[Gullible Jones]

More importantly, one should examine the implications of a near-infinite power source small enough to fit into a handgun.

Power failure in the city? No problem, just plug the skyscraper into your handgun.

The nuclear power plant that energizes the spacecraft's ion drive is in shutdown. Raid the arms locker for pistols to plug into the drive. (remember the ST:TOS episode The Galileo Seven? Scotty drained the power of the phasers into the shuttlecraft)

Iron Man's powered armor could have a power plant at each joint. Even the ones on his pinky finger.

Of course none of your friends want to be near you if some sniper scores a direct hit on the antimatter power pack for your pistol.

Endless power supply != infinite power supply. For something like a fusion plant, the wattage might be limited by the reactor's size.

[Zixinus]

Much too long to be shooting at moving targets from range.

That I figured.

What the fuck? Is it in a backpack now?

Why not? If we add it to your average space opera super-marine armour, it could also power other stuff, like CO2 srubbers. And I mentioned in my very fist post that it doesn't have to be in the weapon itself.

What the fuck makes you think it has less handwavium, apart from the fact that your knowledge of nuclear decay is apparently derived entirely from Google searches?

Sorry for not being born as a genius that was already learning nuclear physics at university at the age of 12. Some of us are mere men.

A hypothetical pellet ICF device could spike to very high pulse power quickly, thus actually meeting your requirements.

ICF requires terewatt lasers to work. Last I heard.

And let's not even talk about this retarded idea of using natural radioactive decay to power the weapon.

Why thank you, please tell this to the engineer that proposed the idea about your wonderful opinion.

http://www.rit.edu/~smhsps/power_conversion.htm

And it doesn't look like he got his Ph.D in a diploma mill either: http://www.eecs.umich.edu/dp-group/biog ... bbard.html

So, yeah, my idea MUST be retarded. And that Seth Hubbard guy must be a retard as well, I mean what would he know? He only has a Ph.D in Electrical Engineering and wrote a shitload of papers about similar stuff (http://www.rit.edu/~smhsps/publications.htm).

[Terralthra]

And let's not even talk about this retarded idea of using natural radioactive decay to power the weapon.

Why thank you, please tell this to the engineer that proposed the idea about your wonderful opinion.

http://www.rit.edu/~smhsps/power_conversion.htm

And it doesn't look like he got his Ph.D in a diploma mill either: http://www.eecs.umich.edu/dp-group/biog ... bbard.html

So, yeah, my idea MUST be retarded. And that Seth Hubbard guy must be a retard as well, I mean what would he know? He only has a Ph.D in Electrical Engineering and wrote a shitload of papers about similar stuff (http://www.rit.edu/~smhsps/publications.htm).

Dude, it says right there in your link that the primary problems would be severe device degradation and insufficient efficiency to power even a microelectronic device. While a chemical firearm would be less susceptible to alpha particle degradation than electronics (I would think), a laser would not be, and the powering a practical laser weapon off of one of these hypothetical batteries would be orders of magnitude higher energy requirements.

[Darth Wong]

ICF requires terewatt lasers to work. Last I heard.

So? Fission requires large, heavy quantities of fuel in order to generate a high power output. What part of "either one requires handwavium" are you too goddamned stupid to understand?

Why thank you, please tell this to the engineer that proposed the idea about your wonderful opinion.

http://www.rit.edu/~smhsps/power_conversion.htm

And it doesn't look like he got his Ph.D in a diploma mill either: http://www.eecs.umich.edu/dp-group/biog ... bbard.html

His PhD does not osmotically transfer to you, fucktard. The reason it's a retarded idea is that you need HIGH POWER, which that kind of device won't give you. The fact that it works is NOT a defense of your idiotic idea.

So, yeah, my idea MUST be retarded. And that Seth Hubbard guy must be a retard as well, I mean what would he know? He only has a Ph.D in Electrical Engineering and wrote a shitload of papers about similar stuff (http://www.rit.edu/~smhsps/publications.htm).

See above, imbecile. He wouldn't be any happier about you using it as a micro-scale megawatt power source than I am. But oh no, you win because YOU USE GOOGLE!!! Too bad you're too much of a goddamned idiot to read, and too fucking arrogant to recognize your own limitations.

[Beowulf]

And what if the guy has some kind of highly reflective armour?

At sufficiently high power levels (not even energy levels), it doesn't matter. The fractional bit of energy that isn't initially reflected away will destroy the reflective capabilities of the armor in short order. Any seriously weaponized laser is within those power levels.

[Darth Wong]

And what if the guy has some kind of highly reflective armour?

At sufficiently high power levels (not even energy levels), it doesn't matter. The fractional bit of energy that isn't initially reflected away will destroy the reflective capabilities of the armor in short order. Any seriously weaponized laser is within those power levels.

I know; I pointed this out to him in a subsequent post. The problem is that he's trying to lowball the power requirements to an absolute minimum, and I'm pointing out why this is a bad idea. One needs the ability to apply a bit of overkill.