The phrase "fear punishment and hope for reward" cannot be interpreted as "motivated by their own internal value systems" unless you're either a liar or an idiot.
Yes, I admit my ignorance on the definitions of "reward" and "punishment" as being restricted to external factors. My incorrect interpretation arose out of ignorance, not stupidity.
Nevertheless, in the context of this quote, the punishment and reward arise from internal factors because belief in a god is an internal value system, isn't it? Doesn't that make whoever said the quote just as "stupid" because their didn't get the words right?
The phrase "fear punishment and hope for reward" cannot be interpreted as "motivated by their own internal value systems" unless you're either a liar or an idiot.
Yes, I admit my ignorance on the definitions of "reward" and "punishment" as being restricted to external factors. My incorrect interpretation arose out of ignorance, not stupidity.
Nevertheless, in the context of this quote, the punishment and reward arise from internal factors because belief in a god is an internal value system, isn't it? Doesn't that make whoever said the quote just as "stupid" because their didn't get the words right?
How is a god external if it's just your conviction that one exists? I might as well say that my neurons, which cause me to feel bad or good over certain actions, are external to my soul. Regardless, this argument is getting too pedantic, not to mention pointless.
Aorus wrote:How is a god external if it's just your conviction that one exists? I might as well say that my neurons, which cause me to feel bad or good over certain actions, are external to my soul. Regardless, this argument is getting too pedantic, not to mention pointless.
Whether or not this god exists objectively, presumably the only thing that's keeping these people in line is the fear of such a god's actions. Therefore, the moral framework they've developed is built around the assumption of the punishment of an external actor. Whether that actor actually exists is irrelevant.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
Nephtys wrote:10. The most henious and the must cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives. Mohandas K Gandhi, Young India, July 7, 1950
There's a problem here. Mohandas Ghandi was assassinated on January 30, 1948.
Nations do not survive by setting examples for others
Nations survive by making examples of others
Nephtys wrote:10. The most henious and the must cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives. Mohandas K Gandhi, Young India, July 7, 1950
There's a problem here. Mohandas Ghandi was assassinated on January 30, 1948.
Observant you are. No idea where Nephtys got the quote, but I found a reference to it with a date of 1927:
"The most heinous and the most cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives." [Mohandas Gandhi (Young India, 1927)]
Nephtys wrote:10. The most henious and the must cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives. Mohandas K Gandhi, Young India, July 7, 1950
There's a problem here. Mohandas Ghandi was assassinated on January 30, 1948.
Observant you are. No idea where Nephtys got the quote, but I found a reference to it with a date of 1927:
"The most heinous and the most cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives." [Mohandas Gandhi (Young India, 1927)]
The quote was from that website of somebody's I liked in the OP. Guess they messed up.
Nephtys wrote:The quote was from that website of somebody's I liked in the OP. Guess they messed up.
No doubt. I've also noticed that sometimes, a specific quote attributed to a person isn't always the same exact wording on every site that it appears on. Things get changed here and there, I suppose.
It's wrong, though. Religion would be better replaced with "an ideology" of which religions are just a particularly irrational and successful type. I'm sure all sorts of good people would do horrible things for their country, for instance.
Yes i know.I have seen what people will do for their country and for their god.A lot of my countrymen are dead because of those two things.
It is one of the reasons i became an atheist.
Nephtys wrote:10. The most henious and the must cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives. Mohandas K Gandhi, Young India, July 7, 1950
There's a problem here. Mohandas Ghandi was assassinated on January 30, 1948.
Ghandi was just that awesome.
And it is an unfortunate irony that his assassin proved him right.
Aorus wrote:How is a god external if it's just your conviction that one exists? I might as well say that my neurons, which cause me to feel bad or good over certain actions, are external to my soul. Regardless, this argument is getting too pedantic, not to mention pointless.
Consider it to be like someone who chooses not to go to Europe because they're scared of dying in a plane accident. Even though flying is the safest way to travel, and the risk is so negligible that the fear is only in their minds, they're still basing their actions on the fear of some kind of external agent (in this case a plane crash, which is a very real, tangible thing when it occurs).
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
"Every man thinks God is on his side. The rich and powerful know that he is." - Jean Anouilh, French playwright (1910-?)
"The more ridiculous a belief system, the higher the probability of its success." - Wayne R. Bartz.
"The most serious doubt that has been thrown on the authenticity of the biblical miracles is the fact that most of the witnesses in regard to them were fishermen." - Arthur Binstead, British journalist (1861-1914)
"Mankind ... will not willingly admit that its destiny can be revealed by the breeding of flies or the counting of chiasmata." - Cyril Dean Darlington, British biology (1903-?)
"Moral indignation is in most cases 2 percent moral, 48 percent indignation and 50 percent envy." - Vittorio De Sica, Italian film director (1901-1974).
"The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum." - Havelock Ellis, British sexologist (1859-1939)
"Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them?" - Jules Feiffer, American cartoonist (1929-?)
"Of all the sexual aberrations, perhaps the most peculiar is chastity." - Remy De Gourmont, French writer (1858-1910)
"Heaven: The Coney Island of the Christian imagination." - Elbert Hubbard, American writer and businessman (1856-1915)
"Many people believe they are attracted to God, or by Nature, when they are only repelled by Man." - William R. Inge, British clergyman (1860-1954)
"The Anglo-Saxon conscience does not prevent the Anglo-Saxon from sinning, it merely prevents him from enjoying his sin." - Salvador De Madariaga, Spanish writer (1886-1978)
"A sense of humour always withers in the presence of the messianic delusion, like justice and truth in front of patriotic passions." - H.L. Mencken, American writer (1880-1956)
"Metaphysics is almost always an attempt to prove the incredible by an appeal to the unintelligible." - ibid
"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." - ibid.
"God is the immemorial refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the miserable. They will find not only sanctuary in His arms, but also a kind of superiority, soothing to their macerated egos. He will set them above their betters." - ibid.
"It takes a long while for a naturally trustful person to reconcile himself to the idea that God will not help him." - ibid.
"Of learned men, the clergy show the lowest development of professional ethics. Any pastor is free to cadge customers from the divines of rival sects, and to denounce the divines themselves as theological quacks." - ibid.
"Puritanism – the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy." - ibid.
"Where it is a duty to worship the Sun, it is pretty sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat." - John, Viscount Morley, British statesman (1838-1923)
"We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their acts." - Harold Nicolson, British politician (1886-1968)
"A casual stroll through a lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche, German philosopher (1844-1900)
"Man is a credulous animal and must believe something. In the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones." - Bertrand Arthur, Earl Russell, British philosopher (1872-1970)
"If you talk to God, you are praying; if God talks to you, you have schizophrenia." - Thomas Szasz, American psychoanalyst (1920-?)
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
"Puritanism – the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy." - ibid.
You could apply this one to quite a few Southern Baptists I've met.
The Gentleman from Texas abstains. Discourteously.
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