Was Palpatine a great mastermind?

[TC Pilot]

You have placed yourself in the position of defending a Bible-Fundamentalist view of canon instead of taking a scientific approach, which is to ask questions and examine the evidence without fear or favour.

Anyone else see anything ironic about objecting to "a Bible-Fundamentalist" approach to accepted "canon"?

[Alexian Cale]

For Palpatine, by contrast, it was all about his ego, and his methods —heedless of consequences— brought chaos and decades of civil war. But, according to you, this is "genius".

In other words, a gigantic ego-trip with no vision other than the service of that ego. And this, according to you, is "genius".

Amazing.

It's as though humility, modesty, and perfection are the three prerequisites to being a genius in your eyes. I suppose you've never actually encountered any in your life -- most genii suffer from psychological and social disabilities and two of them that I know are extraordinarily narcissistic.

What's even more interesting is that Dictionary.com and Mirriam Webster's websites do not list "humility", "modesty", or "perfection" as essentials for genius.

Webster:

1 aplural genii : an attendant spirit of a person or place bplural usually genii : a person who influences another for good or bad
2: a strong leaning or inclination : penchant
3 a: a peculiar, distinctive, or identifying character or spirit b: the associations and traditions of a place c: a personification or embodiment especially of a quality or condition
4plural usually genii : spirit jinni
5plural usually geniuses a: a single strongly marked capacity or aptitude <had a genius for getting along with boys — Mary Ross> b: extraordinary intellectual power especially as manifested in creative activity c: a person endowed with transcendent mental superiority; especially : a person with a very high IQ

Dictionary.com

1. an exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work in science, art, music, etc.: the genius of Mozart.
2. a person having such capacity.
3. a person having an extraordinarily high intelligence rating on a psychological test, as an IQ above 140.
4. natural ability or capacity; strong inclination: a special genius for leadership.
5. distinctive character or spirit, as of a nation, period, or language.
6. the guardian spirit of a place, institution, etc.
7. either of two mutually opposed spirits, one good and the other evil, supposed to attend a person throughout life.
8. a person who strongly influences for good or ill the character, conduct, or destiny of a person, place, or thing: Rasputin, the evil genius of Russian politics.
9. genie (defs. 1, 3).

...But there you go again, you seem to put more emphasis on your personal definitions than the actual thing.

Cale cited a secondary-source description of Palpatine as a "genius" and, like you, locked onto it as a self-evident assertion not subject to question. Indeed, you have both proceeded to make the evidence conform to that assertion instead of evaluating independently the facts of the matter. You have placed yourself in the position of defending a Bible-Fundamentalist view of canon instead of taking a scientific approach, which is to ask questions and examine the evidence without fear or favour. To sum up your "argument": "Palpatine is a genius. Everything points to his being a genius especially because a secondary-source guidebook says he's a genius. Therefore, Palpatine is a genius."

Selective vision?

Cale cited the Dark Side Sourcebook and the Return of the Jedi novelization which is a G-canon source. Both, sadly, eclipse your own diatribes, which seem to be conduits for your own latent egotism. Really, referencing your own opinion and expecting us to take it a seriously credible reason to ignore established continuity?

Try again.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Wrong. It is not "moving the goalposts" to state that the Jedi clearly don't suspect the truth of the fucking war or just how deeply Palpatine is involved in it.

And there was no evidence to substantiate such a conspiracy theory. Without such evidence, any investigation into Palpatine is at best legally without merit and quite possibly treasonous. Any move to displace Palpatine, especially without evidence of his treason, would be a coup'd'etat.

Please, it is now intelligent to make logical leaps sans evidence that advise treasonous action? Establish that such a claim on the part of the Jedi would have been reasonable. Repeating over and over again that it was does not suffice.

The evidence does indeed speak for itself. All you have is preconceived notion attempting to warp that evidence in its direction. Guess how much that weighs in on the discussion?

Is the Dark Empire Sourcebook not an official publication? Is not part of the authentic story of what is Star Wars? If so, then I am not preconceived nor am I "warping" the evidence.

Again, your fiat is not a substitute for citation or argumentation.

In other words, a gigantic ego-trip with no vision other than the service of that ego. And this, according to you, is "genius".

All ideologies are relative. Palpatine happens to be a malignant narcissist of the highest order. I am suggesting genius is a comprehensive and superlative level of talent and ability. Do you have some objective definition of genius? Please provide it.

If Newton had developed his calculus and kinematics solely, from his point of view, to aggrandize his ego, would it suddenly have ceased to be genius? Must genius serve an objective social good? Can Joseph Vissarionovich Jugashvili not be considered a political genius because he apparently subverted the Soviet experiment to his personal political ambitions and power? Even his larger plans aside, he objectively and radically transformed the dominant political order of the galaxy according to his design. This is genius.

No, your position is a Bible-Fundamentalist view of canonical material which according to you is not subject to question, discussion, analysis or evaluation.

Perhaps your cargo cult debating and poisoning of the well would work more convincingly if you understood what you are discussing. The LFL policies regarding continuity and canon are the fundamental basis of any discussion regarding the authentic story of Star Wars. Is there an objective reality to appeal to outside the story as defined by LFL, like there is with the Bible? No. The authentic story of Star Wars in defined through the fictional accounts approved by the copyright holder, LFL. Apparently, like Scooter, you think that your personal opinion of canon or authentic Star Wars is of any merit on its own authority in a discussion; it is not.

I wouldn't be accusing anybody else of spewing smarmy, no-nothing bullshit if I were you, Mr. Primus. Your comparison with Caesar Augustus is even more ridiculous than your attempted comparison of Palpatine with Napoleon. Augustus actually had a far grander vision for his state and one which would endure past his lifetime. He brought an end to his state's civil wars, recreated a political order which was clearly in fatal breakdown, reestablished stability, made Rome's military a more effective and efficient unit, and brought peace and prosperity to a nation rent by years of strife. Autocratic it may have been but the result was an empire which endured for half a millenia even given the lack of an orderly imperial succession mechanism. Unlike Palpatine, Augustus achieved his vision, replaced a broken system with one which was guaranteed to work, and made it durable while advancing the greatness of Rome. For Palpatine, by contrast, it was all about his ego, and his methods —heedless of consequences— brought chaos and decades of civil war. But, according to you, this is "genius".

You will direct me to your axiomatic definition of genius, and explain its authoritative value to me?

Uh, wrong. The facts of the movie events are not being discarded. It is, rather, the evaluation of those facts which is subject to this discussion. Sorry if it doesn't suit your Bible-Fundamentalist view of the canon but I'm not responsible for that.

The filmic canon is not the only canon. You are in factual error, as simple as that. You've failed to explain why the sources cited are not authoritative in any form. Only engaged in vague ritual-mimicry, hoping that invoking "Bible-Fundamentalist" as an Abra Cadabra you imagine will automatically dispel your opponents' claims and challenges. It does not.

"Strawmanderer" has been used here before in other discussions, you little semantics-whore. Kindly stick to the actual topic at hand.

I can produce countless examples of the use "teh" in place of "the" in Internet discussions; does that make the usage authoritative, correct, or useful?

Doubtless you thought you were making a point with all that spew of yours, but of course you failed utterly. Observations of character, behaviour, and consequences of a man's actions are perfectly subject to evaluation. Again, sorry if this doesn't suit your Bible-Fundamentalist view of the canon, but that is not my problem.

But they are not objective, Degan, and therefore they should be interpreted such that as much evidence as possible is retained. This is basic empiricism; the interpretation which explains the largest fraction of the data is preferred.

You have still failed to explain WHAT is WRONG with the sources. Simply chanting "Bible-Fundamentalist" over and over will not accomplish that end.

Sayeth the man who is essentially taking the position that Palpatine's alleged "genius" is not to be subject to question, in accordance to a Bible-Fundamentalist view of the canon. How droll.

Why are those sources not admissible?

As for your other charges, it is assumed that anybody reading this thread is able to understand what the terms "genius" and "insane" are, and how the word "mechanic" was used in context to the discussion. Anybody, that is, except for yourself and your little playmate of course.

How about you explain it for us, and therefore my confusion regarding your goalposts will be concluded? Surely your assumptions can be stated concisely and be open for discussion?

They did not ask questions.

The Jedi were in the midst of uncovering connections between Darth Sidious - who they knew was involved in the cause and instigation of the Clone War - and the Senate/Supreme Chancellor immediately prior to Revenge of the Sith. In fact, we know Palpatine of Naboo moved up the timetable of Grevious' raid on Coruscant in order to co-opt the Jedi investigation, according to Labyrinth of Evil.

They did not bother to question the underlying assumptions of the war.

The FBI should launch a coup or investigation against the President because of the vaguest three/four-degree separation connection that could be construed as the most wild-eyed of conspiracy theories?

In other words, the Jedi failed to do what us poor ordinary mortals have managed to do in regards to George Bush and the war against an abstraction.

President George Bush was not in surreptitious communication with Usama bin Laden to cause the attacks of September 11th, 2001; President George Bush was not in surreptitious communication with Saddam Husayn al-Tikriti in order to cause Operation IRAQI FREEDOM.

Everyone knew that Palpatine had benefited from the war; the Jedi were already suspicious of his political motives and engaged in an investigation (which was probably extraconstitutional) of him and his political motives, as well as his connection to a Sith Lord known to be involved with the instigation of the war. Your claim the Jedi did nothing is factually incorrect. They simply did not figure it out until too late and approached the problem poorly prepared and inappropriately. Furthermore, the idea that the Jedi action against Palpatine is in anyway comparable to anti-war activism against President Bush by private citizens is such an inappropriate and incoherent analogy that it draws into question whether you could have even seen the same film as everyone else.

What suspicions they had only went so far as Palpatine's respect of constitutional limitations and his involvement in getting Anakin appointed to the Jedi Council, which they regarded as interference.

Perhaps a state agency is limited in its ability to challenge or investigate the head of state? Maybe?

Even as they pondered whether Palpatine might be planning to extend himself in office indefinitely, they accepted at face-value the reality of Palpatine's war as thoughtlessly as the Senate and the population at large.

Perhaps because armed separatists had nearly publicly executed a member of their own, and then opened hostilities with agents of the state? The Republic had an ironclad causus belli. And again, despite your insistence, the Jedi investigated these matters. Its factually established.

The only thing worse than your semantics-whoring is your defence of your semantics-whoring and its pretensions to cleverness.

The joke is on you, Degan.

And observable behaviour, character, and consequences of actions are perfectly available for evaluation. Which, BTW, is the practise of both historical biography and psychology.

The goal of historical biography and psychology does include arbitrary discarding of evidence.

Cale cited a secondary-source description of Palpatine as a "genius" and, like you, locked onto it as a self-evident assertion not subject to question.

Because it is an official and canonical source and a legitimate and fully authentic part of the story of Star Wars. Please establish why it is not? [Hint: Before you invoke your ancestors with "BIBLE-FUNDAMENTALIST BAD EVIL MAN STUFF", I'm sure you'll appreciate that Bible-Fundamentalists do not ask for reasons why their assumptions or reasoning is incorrect. Oddly, you do provide no authority or reasoning beyond your own personal authority. Hmm, odd.]

Indeed, you have both proceeded to make the evidence conform to that assertion instead of evaluating independently the facts of the matter. You have placed yourself in the position of defending a Bible-Fundamentalist view of canon instead of taking a scientific approach, which is to ask questions and examine the evidence without fear or favour. To sum up your "argument": "Palpatine is a genius. Everything points to his being a genius especially because a secondary-source guidebook says he's a genius. Therefore, Palpatine is a genius."

Actually, I supplied my own arguments as to why he is a genius, asked you to list your assumptions, and I cited evidence. You said, "he's egotistical, NO GENIUS HERE!", "I don't like your source, therefore I will ignore it!", "my definition of genius is objective and requires no justification."

Excuse me, but you've only offered your personal fiat. There's scarcely a coherent argument to actually be found. Why is it so? Don't tell me. Tell me why.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You have placed yourself in the position of defending a Bible-Fundamentalist view of canon instead of taking a scientific approach, which is to ask questions and examine the evidence without fear or favour.

Anyone else see anything ironic about objecting to "a Bible-Fundamentalist" approach to accepted "canon"?

He thinks by shouting those words over and over, he will invoke the Debate Spirits that Shaman Wong invokes, and they will dispel defeat his enemies! Cargo Cult Debating 101.

[wjs7744]

He brought an end to his state's civil wars, recreated a political order which was clearly in fatal breakdown, reestablished stability, made Rome's military a more effective and efficient unit, and brought peace and prosperity to a nation rent by years of strife.

Umm, are you saying that Palpatine didn't replace a corrupt political system and greatly improve the military? I thought that was generally accepted to be what he did do. And frankly, the idea that the Sith don't have any system for determining succession is rather strange. Isn't that the whole point of their taking apprentices?

[TC Pilot]

The Imperial system was intentionally designed by Palpatine to not be able to survive him. There was never a clear idea of how Palpatine would be succeeded upon his death, either to more thoroughly solidify his position, or because he never intended to die.

Darth Vader's place as Sith apprentice does not translate into becoming emperor, although Vader explicitely planned to be Palpatine's successor to the throne. In reality, Vader was merely seen as one of the Emperor's emissaries, and was only given an actual title (Supreme Commander) after the Battle of Yavin.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It seems pretty clear that at the early (ROTS era) phase, he did intend to pass his political power and Sith Mastery to his apprentice in Vader; its only after living forever and godhood became practical options he worked to make it as impossible as he could for anyone to replace him.

[TC Pilot]

But did any significant change occur to the Imperial state to indicate the succession mechanism was sabotaged? I imagine it's far more likely his motivation for a lack of any proper succession changed from "Kill me and the whole thing comes crashing down" to "It doesn't matter, because I'm never going to die."

Which brings up an interesting little problem. If he wanted Vader to become his heir, why does he not have any significant position in the Imperial hierarchy until after Yavin, which is about the time Palpatine is perfecting his "Spirit transfer" feat?

[Patrick Degan]

Since wading through Primus' and Cale's endless bullshit proclamations of Palpatine's alleged "genius" will take a bit of time, I merely invite them and anybody else to have a quick browse through Suetonius' The Lives Of The Twelve Caesars chapter on Augustus to perhaps get a clue as to why the individual Mr. Primus so ineptly attempted to offer as comparison really did qualify as a genius while Palpatine, by contrast, fails miserably.

Oh, and BTW, as to this:

Later, his larger plan evolved to include practical immortality and apotheosis.

Persons who seek their own glorification and even godhood are usually diagnosed as suffering from megalomania, a mental disorder.

Congratulations, Mr. Primus, you have identified a clear indication of the madness of your so-called "genius".

[Illuminatus Primus]

That might be because, uh, I don't know, normal people cannot live forever. Palpatine literally did cheat death on several occasions. He is already quasi-immortal by the time of the original trilogy, and he has already begun to absorb and assimilate his underlings and subjects into himself. Its not madness if it is possible.

Moreover, since when is it impossible to be a megalomaniac and genius at the same time? Mental disorders are NOT mutually exclusive from genius; in fact many forms of genius are commonly associated with particular disorders, especially obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Once more, fiat is not an argument, Degan. Develop your argument, describe your assumptions, cite your evidence, and give a GOOD REASON to ignore canon.

And as it happens, I own The Twelve Caesars. And as it so happens, I am familiar with Latin and Roman history. I also suppose that the fact that Octavian changed his praenomen or personal name to "Imperator" or "victorious general granted a triumph," had the Senate grant him the cognomen or family name of Augustus or "revered (or venerated) one," took Caesar as his own name, and added "son of divinity" to his name. These of course, are totally subtle and relaxed claims of personal dignity, especially in a constitutional republic. Its not pretensions of divinity or personal glorification, as you put it, or anything. Not at all, right. And it wasn't like he was deified upon his death or anything.

EDIT:

Patrick Degan is a liar and intellectually dishonest. Here is what he claims I was doing:

I merely invite them and anybody else to have a quick browse through Suetonius' The Lives Of The Twelve Caesars chapter on Augustus to perhaps get a clue as to why the individual Mr. Primus so ineptly attempted to offer as comparison really did qualify as a genius while Palpatine, by contrast, fails miserably. [emphasis mine]

A casual reader might assume that perhaps I did indeed claim that if Imperator Caesar Divi Filius Augustus was a genius, than so must Palpatine. Unfortunately for Pattycakes, I never made that claim. Rather, what I said was that if taking "decades" to achieve autocracy invalidated a claim to genius, than Imperator Caesar Divi Filius Augustus, who IS certainly a political genius, must ALSO be disqualified - which was his claim (using a much more dubious comparison to the briefer rise to power of the Führer und Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler; here one questions how Degan can rebut me for claiming the mad or mentally ill can be geniuses when he uses this example).

He then moved the goalposts to Imperator Caesar Divi Filius Augustus' superlative political achievements, ignoring that his claim had been that a decades-long rise to power was inconsistent with political genius (he also failed to explain why Palpatine's achievements were comprehensively inferior to Augustus').

Here is the proof:

Again, Palpatine is a mechanic. Hitler took power in Germany with far less effort involved and in a far shorter timespan.

Have you ever even heard of apples and oranges? Simply because a demagogue ever seized control of a state makes it an automatically equivalent comparison as a standard of genius? I suppose Imperator Caesar Divi Filius Augustus was simply a "mechanic" since his autocracy similarly took decades to fully realize? And enough of your smarmy, know-nothing bullshit: you want to make a substantive comparison? Actually make it; explain how it is analogous and in what context and why. [emphasis mine]

[Illuminatus Primus]

But did any significant change occur to the Imperial state to indicate the succession mechanism was sabotaged? I imagine it's far more likely his motivation for a lack of any proper succession changed from "Kill me and the whole thing comes crashing down" to "It doesn't matter, because I'm never going to die."

Well no doubt; no sensible despot, even the mundanely mortal, makes it convenient to kill him and replace him.

Which brings up an interesting little problem. If he wanted Vader to become his heir, why does he not have any significant position in the Imperial hierarchy until after Yavin, which is about the time Palpatine is perfecting his "Spirit transfer" feat?

It dangerous to officially elevate your successor or heir until you are already on your way out, because you make it exceedingly tempting for that person to just hurry up the succession process. Although I also imagine he had been working on it for quite some time prior to Yavin. I imagine that once he thought it was possible he became the preferred plan even if it had not been demonstrated and proven fully practical yet; obviously once he does prove it, then its the only plan.

[TC Pilot]

Persons who seek their own glorification and even godhood are usually diagnosed as suffering from megalomania, a mental disorder.

Congratulations, Mr. Primus, you have identified a clear indication of the madness of your so-called "genius".

So a genius cannot suffer from mental disorders?

Kurt Gödel was so paranoid he actually starved to death for fear of being poisoned. Clearly he is an insane moron and his works blemishes on the field of mathematics.

Napoléon Bonaparte ruled France for years with megalomaniacal abandon. Clearly he is one of the most incompetent and incapable generals in history and his rule over France is one of the biggest jokes in the country's history.

Palpatine I wanted to become a god. Clearly, this completely trumps his succesful destruction of a centuries-old republic, a heavily entrenched religious sect of incredibly power mages, the construction of the galaxy's largest, most powerful, and most popular empire, his manipulation of galactic events for years on two seperate occassions, and his widely accepted political theories.

This is, of course, ignoring, that he managed to bring himself back from the dead twice, and succesfully controlled billions of Byss' inhabitants.

Of course, your, as yet undefined, criteria for what makes an individual a genius obviously overrides the Return of the Jedi novelization and the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and the long list of accomplishments Palpatine performed during the course of his life.

Honestly, do you have even the slightest justification for why Palpatine is not a genius?

[Illuminatus Primus]

TC, Pattycakes is a charlatan and a liar; his "debating" is nothing more than pedantry, incoherence, posturing, and fiat. He'll also misrepresent you and hope you're too stupid to notice - scroll up, I caught him lying. I don't think you can logically debate such a person.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Napoléon Bonaparte ruled France for years with megalomaniacal abandon. Clearly he is one of the most incompetent and incapable generals in history and his rule over France is one of the biggest jokes in the country's history.

Nitpick aside, much of France's victories came from the fact that some talented officers managed to simplify logistics and in part simplified artillery caliber. The end result was the French Military was ahead of the rest of in military reform. All one needed was someone charismatic enough to hold the military together especially after some demoralising defeats, though the French began to repulse the Austrians and what not. Napoleon's genuine idea was that he bunched up the artillery together for better efficacy. The idea of a professional conscript army is as old as Rome and some others sought to emulate it. He did reorganise the French army to make it more effective. I will give him that. That aside, he messed up France with too many military campaigns with led to his defeat. He was a good tactician to an extent, but he messed up really as a strategist.

I won't classify him as a genius either to put it that way. The end result was a France with a depleted treasury and so forth. In some ways, that was the same end result of Palpatine's empire. He let ambition get in the way of the bigger picture.

[Surlethe]

Persons who seek their own glorification and even godhood are usually diagnosed as suffering from megalomania, a mental disorder.

Congratulations, Mr. Primus, you have identified a clear indication of the madness of your so-called "genius".

With all due respect, Mr Degan, there is no reason to believe that madness is mutually exclusive to genius.

[Crown]

And as I said, betting on Vader (a loyal servant of 20-odd years who betrayed literally everyone for you to say nothing of a son he never knew and met only after he'd been fully corrupted) to not kill him is a much better bet than betting on the uncorrupted Anakin Skywalker to make a choice and actively stop Windu.

I don't want to get into the discussion of which stupid action was more stupid, since that would be stupid, but I must say; I disagree on your analysis. Palaptine knew that Vader made an offer to Luke to kill him so they could rule. The relationship of the Sith demands treachery by the pupil to his master, so it's not as if Vader throwing him down the air shaft was out of the realm of possibility for actions from 'a loyal servant of 20-odd years' when that entire Master/Servant dynamic is built upon treachery, now is it?

Had Vader not made Luke that offer, and had Palpatine not been aware of it, then yeah, what he was doing wasn't 'as stupid' as what he did with Tyrannus or Windu, but Vader did make the offer, and Palpatine knew he had.

[Patrick Degan]

Persons who seek their own glorification and even godhood are usually diagnosed as suffering from megalomania, a mental disorder.

Congratulations, Mr. Primus, you have identified a clear indication of the madness of your so-called "genius".

With all due respect, Mr Degan, there is no reason to believe that madness is mutually exclusive to genius.

Sorry, but the "mad genius" cliche is exactly that —a cliche.

This is one of the points Mr. Primus and his little playmate keep missing. Palpatine has no grand vision beyond "unlimited POWERRRRRRRRRRR" and wrecks a galaxy failing to achieve it by his convoluted schemes and obsessions. That is not the operation of genius by any stretch of the imagination, as his grand fuckup at Endor demonstrates. Obsession negates genius or even talent since everything ends up being turned inward and warps around that single-minded object until the person so afflicted loses sight of every outside consideration and falls into denial and delusion and you can't achieve anything without a solid footing in reality. And as for Palpatine's actual insanity, the very desire for godhood speaks for itself on that score. Whereas, true genius is oriented towards the vision of (or achieves as the effect therof even if not consciously planned) something which will add to the sum total of the human experience and endure long after the inventor, engineer, or artist so gifted has turned to dust. "Unlimited POWERRRRRRR" fails in this regard.

Furthermore, genius seeks out the most effective and simplest possible solution to a given problem, not the most elaborately complicated one. The direct route to a goal, with as few steps as necessary to achieve it. Anything else is merely the work of a talented mechanic at best and a plodder at worst.

Instead, Palpatine constructs his twisted set of nested schemes and gets away with it only because none of his enemies had the intellectual acumen or even the basic cynicism to question the truth of the war itself. The Jedi remained utterly clueless regarding Palpatine's true identity as the Sith Lord Sidious until Anakin came and told Mace Windu directly; a revelation which floored the vapaad master. And that is direct from Matthew Stover's novelisation of Revenge Of The Sith —passages of which I can quote verbatim if it becomes necessary to demonstrate the point.

[Alexian Cale]

Since wading through Primus' and Cale's endless bullshit proclamations of Palpatine's alleged "genius"

LOL.

Seems to the rest of us that you drowned.

[Covenant]

Especially considering the points Degan already raised, it's pretty clear that Palpatine was a Villianous Mastermind in the vein of Ming the Merciless, but not a successful evil genius. The nested probabilities of things his plans depended on would make the Joker wince at their audacity, and though he often got away with it, a lot of his plans failed miserably and stupidly for no other reason than he either didn't bother to think them through or he pulled a Hitler and micromanaged to negative effect.

Afterall, wasting your apprentice to chase down and unsuccessfully attack some Jedi is a critical blunder and a massive resource waster. From then on, he's basically characterized by devious manipulation (good Mastermindy things) and idiotic over-reaching that gets him punished (stupid Villiany things) that make him fit the big theme of the "Evil Overlord List" definition of a Mastermind. He was running an entire Empire from his little office chair, that's for sure, but he's no brilliant genius.

[wjs7744]

Well, it seems to me that if you are going to claim that his plans were too complicated, that you must also provide evidence that achieving his goals would even be possible with a simpler plan. Otherwise, they are too complicated with regards to what? If we have no simpler plan to compare them with, then I guess what you mean is that they are too complicated for you.

Also, why the hell should a genius have to contribute to science or art or somesuch? Frankly, all you have shown is that your definition of genius is rather different than the dictionary's one:

genius noun (geniuses or in sense 5 genii)

1. someone who has outstanding creative or intellectual ability.
2. such ability.
3. a person who exerts a powerful influence on another (whether good or bad).
4. Roman mythol a guardian spirit.
5. formal a quality or attitude with which something (eg a country or a period of time) is identified or typically associated • Rational inquiry was the genius of the century.

So, 1 mentions nothing about the ends to which that intellect is used, 2 is irrelevant, no-one who has seen the films would dispute 3, 4 & 5 are irrelevant.

Nope, no mention of anything to do with invention or art.

[Ghost Rider]

1. Cale, don't fucking spam. Either counter his points or shut the fuck up.

2. It's his burden to show a simpler plan the Palpatine's? For fuck's sake, try and actually counter his point given all he is talking is the goddamn movies.

[wjs7744]

Sorry, maybe I need to clarify.

Furthermore, genius seeks out the most effective and simplest possible solution to a given problem, not the most elaborately complicated one. The direct route to a goal, with as few steps as necessary to achieve it.

That basically implies that Palpatine's plan wasn't the simplest possible, therefore there was a simpler plan that would have achieved his goals. The burden of prove can hardly be upon me to prove that such a plan doesn't exist, as one cannot prove a negative like that. Hence my statement. On the other hand, if I've missed something in the rules, then I apologise, and will not do it again once it has been pointed out to me. I was honestly trying to figure out where the burden of proof is in this instance. (This is pretty much my first real debate, sorry if it shows)

[Alexian Cale]

1. Cale, don't fucking spam. Either counter his points or shut the fuck up.

My apologies, Ghost Rider.

Though I would like to point out that his constant diatribes yield no point. All Mr. Degan has done is pointed out that Emperor Palpatine does not meet his personal standards as a genius; meanwhile, I have two canon sources (one of them the G-canon RotJ novelization) that specifically state that the Emperor is a genius. Moreover, Palpatine meets the standards of a genius as defined by the dictionary.

He's going to need a bit more than his own personal feelings if he intends to make a successful point.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Sorry, but the "mad genius" cliche is exactly that —a cliche.

We have Pattycake's say-so again, I guess that means any discussion of anything is closed. Once the Pontiff here decrees it from his chair.

This is one of the points Mr. Primus and his little playmate keep missing. Palpatine has no grand vision beyond "unlimited POWERRRRRRRRRRR" and wrecks a galaxy failing to achieve it by his convoluted schemes and obsessions.

And Napoleon and Caesar had the goodwill of mankind in mind, right? He died in the middle of the project. Caesar died unexpectedly as well, and just like Palpatine, it collapsed the country into civil war. Furthermore, Palpatine did reform the state and do much better than the Republic preceding it, and the New Republic succeeding it in ending civil strife and protecting the state from outside threats. Admiral Mils Giel's armada is the way the Empire responds to any penetration by unknown entities, versus the impotent response of the New Republic.

That is not the operation of genius by any stretch of the imagination, as his grand fuckup at Endor demonstrates. Obsession negates genius or even talent since everything ends up being turned inward and warps around that single-minded object until the person so afflicted loses sight of every outside consideration and falls into denial and delusion and you can't achieve anything without a solid footing in reality.

Is genius a fundamentally from-birth quality which can never wax or wane or get overshadowed by hubris or error? Ever? What is Nikola Tesla? Or Isaac Newton?

And as for Palpatine's actual insanity, the very desire for godhood speaks for itself on that score. Whereas, true genius is oriented towards the vision of (or achieves as the effect therof even if not consciously planned) something which will add to the sum total of the human experience and endure long after the inventor, engineer, or artist so gifted has turned to dust. "Unlimited POWERRRRRRR" fails in this regard.

Right, because so many historical - especially ancient - political and military geniuses really had progressive humanistic ends, and that was the deciding characteristic of their genius talent. My mistake. Genghis Khan, et al, none of them are geniuses in own right.

Furthermore, genius seeks out the most effective and simplest possible solution to a given problem, not the most elaborately complicated one. The direct route to a goal, with as few steps as necessary to achieve it. Anything else is merely the work of a talented mechanic at best and a plodder at worst.

You permitted Napoleon as a genius prior, and the Russian campaign is what? A necessary measure? Genius? Shit, the Bourbons were restored twice because he failed. But he's still a genius. And if Augustus' construction of the imperial dignity was not a long and convoluted process, what is?

Instead, Palpatine constructs his twisted set of nested schemes and gets away with it only because none of his enemies had the intellectual acumen or even the basic cynicism to question the truth of the war itself. The Jedi remained utterly clueless regarding Palpatine's true identity as the Sith Lord Sidious until Anakin came and told Mace Windu directly; a revelation which floored the vapaad master. And that is direct from Matthew Stover's novelisation of Revenge Of The Sith —passages of which I can quote verbatim if it becomes necessary to demonstrate the point.

Amazing. You find one quote to the effect that Windu was surprised - your first citation and proof of reading comprehension - and that is supposed to be your ultimate coup?

And I repeat; until (actually after as well) Anakin outed Palpatine, there was no evidence whatsoever to prove beyond the slightest doubt that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. Your fault with his enemies is that they are not completely clairvoyant or that they are not conspiracy theorists.

[Isolder74]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
mas·ter·mind /ˈmæstərˌmaɪnd, ˈmɑstər-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mas-ter-mahynd, mah-ster-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object) 1. to plan and direct (a usually complex project or activity), esp. skillfully: Two colonels had masterminded the revolt.
–noun 2. a person who originates or is primarily responsible for the execution of a particular idea, project, or the like: the masterminds of company policy.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1710–20; master + mind]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This mas·ter·mind (mās'tər-mīnd') Pronunciation Key
n. A highly intelligent person, especially one who plans and directs a complex or difficult project: the mastermind of a robbery.

tr.v. mas·ter·mind·ed, mas·ter·mind·ing, mas·ter·minds
To direct, plan, or supervise (a project or activity).


(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
mastermind

1720, "an outstanding intellect," from master + mind. Meaning "head of a criminal enterprise" is first attested 1872.

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This mastermind

noun
1. someone who creates new things [syn: originator]
2. someone who has exceptional intellectual ability and originality; "Mozart was a child genius"; "he's smart but he's no Einstein" [syn: genius]

verb
1. plan and direct (a complex undertaking); "he masterminded the robbery"

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version) - Cite This Source - Share This
ˈmastermind noun

the person planning and controlling an undertaking or scheme
Example: He was the mastermind behind the scheme.

According to the definition of the word, Mastermind, we can see that Palpatine was indeed a great mastermind. Being a mastermind does not clain any level of success in their efforts or plans. It does not have any indication that their plans succeed 100% of the time. A mastermind does not even HAVE to be a genious.

The facts are quite clear from Episodes I - III that Paplatine was a masterwork of being a great puppetmaster and he had his strings into just about everything. I think that alone qualifies him for the title of a great mastermind.