The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

Darth Ruinus · Post by **Darth Ruinus** » 2008-01-19 03:08pm

Not sure if this goes here, but...

Anyone here read it or know about it? Is it good or no? It was recommended to me by a friend, but I have never really heard of it.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2008-01-19 03:45pm

First of all, this should be in Fantasy

.
Secondly, I've read the first and second Chronicles (But not "The Final Chronicles"). I loved the first, and the second was nice (I really need to re-read it again), and it has some beautiful storytelling (The Bloodguard, Giants, 3, and the sheer fantasticness of the Final battle with Lord Foul).

It's a pity that Thomas is such an unpleasant, loathsome dipshit in the first book, although he improves later on.

Darth Ruinus · Post by **Darth Ruinus** » 2008-01-19 06:34pm

DEATH wrote:First of all, this should be in Fantasy .
Secondly, I've read the first and second Chronicles (But not "The Final Chronicles"). I loved the first, and the second was nice (I really need to re-read it again), and it has some beautiful storytelling (The Bloodguard, Giants, 3, and the sheer fantasticness of the Final battle with Lord Foul).

It's a pity that Thomas is such an unpleasant, loathsome dipshit in the first book, although he improves later on.

I didnt know it belonged in Fantasy, my friend said it was a sci-fi book (?)

Well, thanks, I might pick it up somewhere then.

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2008-01-19 06:37pm

Your friend confused it with the "The Gap Cycle"?
That's a SF series by the same author, there are also a lot of loathsome people in it.

Darth Ruinus · Post by **Darth Ruinus** » 2008-01-19 06:41pm

Luzifer's right hand wrote:Your friend confused it with the "The Gap Cycle"?
That's a SF series by the same author, there are also a lot of loathsome people in it.

I dont know, maybe. He did say it has been a while since he read the book, and he might have been confusin the two.

DesertFly · Post by **DesertFly** » 2008-01-19 07:10pm

DEATH wrote:It's a pity that Thomas is such an unpleasant, loathsome dipshit in the first book, although he improves later on.

I've only read part of the first book, and that's what turned me off to the series. I don't mind my heroes having flaws, even major ones, but I balk at a hero who expresses his joy at his miraculous healing by raping a woman when he first arrives in the fairy land.

darthbob88 · Post by **darthbob88** » 2008-01-19 08:21pm

DesertFly wrote:
DEATH wrote:It's a pity that Thomas is such an unpleasant, loathsome dipshit in the first book, although he improves later on.
I've only read part of the first book, and that's what turned me off to the series. I don't mind my heroes having flaws, even major ones, but I balk at a hero who expresses his joy at his miraculous healing by raping a woman when he first arrives in the fairy land.

Thomas Covenant is just _bad_. You seem to be making the mistake of assuming that just because he's an anti-hero, anyone who doesn't like the books just isn't mature enough to get it. That kind of thinking leads to Modern Art. -- Shalon Wood
From Here[/quote]

If what you say is so, I would be hard-pressed indeed to tell Mr Covenant from whatever villain he is supposed to be combating.

darthbob88 · Post by **darthbob88** » 2008-01-19 08:23pm

Dammit, could some mod swap that extra [/quote] tag for the [/url] tag it was supposed to be?

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why you should always preview your posts before hitting submit.

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2008-01-19 08:39pm

The villain is called Lord Foul which makes him rather easy to identify imho.

It was not certain that the Land is real during the "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant" IIRC and Covenant thought sometimes that he had gone completely nuts, a rather "reasonable" assumption imho. He was rather heroic once he was sure that it was real, and in the "real" world with the little girl. IIRC it has been a long time since I read the first six books.

Mayabird · Post by **Mayabird** » 2008-01-19 09:10pm

I read the first trilogy once. I have no inclination to read it again. I also had no inclination to read the second trilogy, and I don't even know how a third trilogy makes sense, from the spoilers I read.

Anyway, some of the concepts and ideas in the stories are pretty interesting. I liked a good portion of the background and how stuff seemed to work. As for the plot, characters, etc., meh. There was too much stupidity. I liked a couple people. That's about it.

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2008-01-20 12:43am

I tried reading it once. It has the distinction of being the only book to have sent me to sleep within three pages of opening the cover.

Basically, the first bit (after which I gave up) is Thomas running across the moors saying, "Oh, woe is me. I'm a leper and I raped a girl." It's utter crap.

Axiomatic · Post by **Axiomatic** » 2008-01-20 05:02am

I actually found the books humorous, because Covenant is given a Fantasy Adventure on Easy Mode (and it's unforgivable to play on Easy Mode unless you're in grade school!) and he still manages to mess everything up.

I mean, he's handed all the various plot points five minutes after the opening sequence. He doesn't even have to go on a quest to find the random powerful magic artifact, he starts with it. He meets his designated love interest immediately. It's instantly clear who the good guys and the bad guys are.

And Covenant manages to fuck up everything. It's spectacular. He's got all the necessary fantasy tropes, he's got the most idyllic, sometimes downright sickeningly sweet fantasy setting ever - he can even summon a badass version of My Little Ponies!

And he just...can't...get into the MOOD. Just the contrast between how easy everything would be if someone willing to work with the story had been in Covenant's place and what the Land actually manages to squeeze out of Covenant is, for lack of a better word, hilarious.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2008-01-20 05:18am

Axiomatic wrote:I actually found the books humorous, because Covenant is given a Fantasy Adventure on Easy Mode (and it's unforgivable to play on Easy Mode unless you're in grade school!) and he still manages to mess everything up.

I mean, he's handed all the various plot points five minutes after the opening sequence. He doesn't even have to go on a quest to find the random powerful magic artifact, he starts with it. He meets his designated love interest immediately. It's instantly clear who the good guys and the bad guys are.

And Covenant manages to fuck up everything. It's spectacular. He's got all the necessary fantasy tropes, he's got the most idyllic, sometimes downright sickeningly sweet fantasy setting ever - he can even summon a badass version of My Little Ponies!

And he just...can't...get into the MOOD. Just the contrast between how easy everything would be if someone willing to work with the story had been in Covenant's place and what the Land actually manages to squeeze out of Covenant is, for lack of a better word, hilarious.

I hate you too.

I really should have gotten a name that isn't constantly used in other situations.

Darth Ruinus · Post by **Darth Ruinus** » 2008-01-20 02:01pm

Covenant wrote:
Axiomatic wrote:I actually found the books humorous, because Covenant is given a Fantasy Adventure on Easy Mode (and it's unforgivable to play on Easy Mode unless you're in grade school!) and he still manages to mess everything up.

I mean, he's handed all the various plot points five minutes after the opening sequence. He doesn't even have to go on a quest to find the random powerful magic artifact, he starts with it. He meets his designated love interest immediately. It's instantly clear who the good guys and the bad guys are.

And Covenant manages to fuck up everything. It's spectacular. He's got all the necessary fantasy tropes, he's got the most idyllic, sometimes downright sickeningly sweet fantasy setting ever - he can even summon a badass version of My Little Ponies!

And he just...can't...get into the MOOD. Just the contrast between how easy everything would be if someone willing to work with the story had been in Covenant's place and what the Land actually manages to squeeze out of Covenant is, for lack of a better word, hilarious.
I hate you too.

I really should have gotten a name that isn't constantly used in other situations.

So, the general feeling regarding the book is its crap?

Axiomatic · Post by **Axiomatic** » 2008-01-20 03:22pm

Err...maybe I suck at expressing myself. I did not mean to say the book is crap. I rather meant the opposite. I liked that Covenant wasn't Standard Fantasy Protagonist #253235 following the Standard Hero's Journey Plot #8093272.

Instead, I got what should have been Standard Hero's Journey Plot #8093272 but wasn't, because Covenant refused to play along.

Darth Ruinus · Post by **Darth Ruinus** » 2008-01-20 05:13pm

Axiomatic wrote:Err...maybe I suck at expressing myself. I did not mean to say the book is crap. I rather meant the opposite. I liked that Covenant wasn't Standard Fantasy Protagonist #253235 following the Standard Hero's Journey Plot #8093272.

Instead, I got what should have been Standard Hero's Journey Plot #8093272 but wasn't, because Covenant refused to play along.

Oh, that makes more sense, I think, basically it's like the Bard's Tale?

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2008-01-20 06:33pm

Umm... no. The Chronicle of Thomas Covenant was complete and utter shit. It was and still is one of the worst books I have ever read, on all levels.

First of all, there are no likable characters... except maybe for the silent kung fu master guys. Everyone else is either a snivelling pacifist (snivelling in the sense that you can't have one damn fight scene without 20 pages of "I harmed a living thing, oh woe is me!" and "defending ourselves would be morally reprehensible. Because of trees. And green fields. And puppydog flowers."), or a child-raping emo bitchmeister. Or both.
Covenant starts the book as the whiniest, most repetitive leper in the history of leprous assholes. (outcast. unclean.) Then he goes to the lamest fantasy world of all time (more on this later), by not looking both ways when crossing the damn street. (unclean. outcast. whine.) Then some little girl takes pity on him and heals him. (not unclean? Nah. He keeps whining!) Literally, Thomas Covenant's first act upon discovering that he can feel is to rape a minor. Brutally. He will then spend the rest of the book resenting the girl's mother (who is forced by law to escort him to Oz or something), whining and not lifting a finger to defend himself because harming ur-demons is somehow wrong. That's right. Covenant accidentally hurts a goddamn demon and spends dozens of pages loathing himself for it. After raping a minor and taunting her mother.

Even Lord Foul (think Ganon, but more cartoonish) probably thinks Thomas Covenant is an immoral scumbag. Seriously, the bad guy was a better human being than Covenant, at least as far into the series as I could stomach reading.

And if you think my main problem with the series is a moral one, then let me correct you of that illusion. I don't mind anti-heroes or even horrific villains, as long as they're interesting. Thomas Covenant commits the greatest sin a fictional character can: he is boring. The guy makes Hamlet seem decisive. And succinct. And he's the only character (besides the kung fu bodyguards) who isn't a Carebear in a human body.

Now on to the universe: I admit that I found LOTR boring. I thought Tolkein spent too much time describing flowers and elf poetry and not enough time on epic battles or interesting characters. Well, the Land from Thomas Covenant makes Middle Earth look like the 40k Siege of motherfucking Terra.

To start with, the last time anything even remotely cool happened in the Land, everyone immediately took an oath of nonviolence, forever... even if they are under attack by ravening ur-demons. You thought Tolkein liked pointless description of crap that you already know what it looks like? He was but a dabbler next to Donaldson! Oh, and every damn fantasy trope in his books is a faded, pale, g-rated imitation of something that Tolkein already did. In fact, Donaldson seems to build on all of LOTR's weaknesses while discarding it's strengths.

You remember how the ents take a long time to talk? In the Land, it takes Giants weeks just to say hi to each other, and months just to tell a joke. Not only is this completely infeasible and SOD-shattering, but it's also incredibly boring. And everything the giants say or do is completely lame. With names like "Saltheart Foamfollower," one can't help but wonder if there's even a point to asking a giant for information. It would be like listening to my fundie in-laws describe Mormon disneyland every time I asked them when their flight was arriving.

And just in case you were wondering--yes, even the demons are boring.

Let me sum up: Imagine you had to watch the Fellowship of the Ring travel in real time, and then imagine that every sword in middle earth has magically transformed into a daisy. You're still having a better time than if you were reading Thomas Covenant.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2008-01-21 05:47am

Long and Boring.

You root for the bad guys because they are more interesting and likable than the good guys, apart from the Bloodguard, who rock, all in the context of the ridiculously pacifistic inhabitents of "the Land" who make anyone with the slightest bit of gumption look quite awesome.

Hile Troy was reasonably interesting as well as I recall, and Lord Mhoram seemed a decent sort of bloke in comparison to the others.

Reading it as a 15 year old in my secondary school library, then again I exhausted the school libraries collection of scifi and fantasy fairly swiftly, and I'm pretty sure no fucker ever read the books but me in the five years I was there. (I checked once, I was the only person who took it out between the first year and third)

Heh, Drool Rockworm is a hilarious name for a bad guy as well.

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2008-01-21 07:03am

To all the people who were barracking for the bad guys:

How the hell did you manage to get far enough into the book to get to the bad guys? I couldn't pick it up again after about fifty pages of him walking along the moors saying, "Oh, woe is me. I'm a leper and I raped a girl."

Imagine you had to watch the Fellowship of the Ring travel in real time, and then imagine that every sword in middle earth has magically transformed into a daisy. You're still having a better time than if you were reading Thomas Covenant.

I've got a better one. Imagine you're watching the Fellowhip of the Ring in real time, and then imagine that every sword in middle earth has magically implanted itself in your gut. You're still having a better time than if you were reading Thomas Covenant.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2008-01-21 01:19pm

How the hell did you manage to get far enough into the book to get to the bad guys? I couldn't pick it up again after about fifty pages of him walking along the moors saying, "Oh, woe is me. I'm a leper and I raped a girl."

I read books during my RE lessons.

Compared to listening to the teacher batter on about Marks gospel, it was pretty interesting.

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2008-01-21 05:32pm

A rapist is not that bad, he is not even a murderer.
But I also enjoy stuff with corrupt cop-killing murderers like the Shield and people liking mass-murderers like Darth Vader is commonplace.

Eris · Post by **Eris** » 2008-01-21 09:19pm

Luzifer's right hand wrote:A rapist is not that bad, he is not even a murderer.

I'm not exactly clear on what you mean here. At least, I hope I'm not. Mind clarifying exactly on what you mean when you say a rapist isn't that bad?

As for the books, I have to echo what has been said here, mostly. The book isn't even despicable in a way that you chortle in misanthropic glee at the hideously evil characters. It's just boring. I don't recommend it - I never got past the first one, and I suspect they didn't get much better.

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2008-01-22 03:56am

Sounds like he's saying the Rapist < Murderer on the "evil scale".

Though I think for most of us it's actually Murderer < Rapist < Murder-Rapist. I'm sure if you search you will find at least one thread in this board where the case was made that being raped was not as serious as being murdered.

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2008-01-23 10:54am

Eris wrote: I'm not exactly clear on what you mean here. At least, I hope I'm not. Mind clarifying exactly on what you mean when you say a rapist isn't that bad?

AniThyng got what I meant.

The full name of the Chronicles is in fact; The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever

That he does not believe in the Land, a rather reasonable assumption as he is from a real world equivalent, is one of the main plot points. I would also think that I'm insane or in some kind of funky dream if I woke up in the Land.

Axiomatic · Post by **Axiomatic** » 2008-01-23 12:29pm

My impression so far has been that Covenant can't afford to believe in the Land. Because if the Land isn't real, well, then he's not really guilty of anything, is he? He didn't actually do anything bad, just fantasized about doing it.