B5 - Would you convict Delenn of War Crimes?

Jade Falcon · Post by **Jade Falcon** » 2008-01-19 03:06pm

Another thing, hasn't anyone remembered that Jankowski had a previous bad reputation for screwing up a first contact situation. His attitude of "We'll be getting medals by the bucketload" doesn't exactly help matters.

Aeolus · Post by **Aeolus** » 2008-01-20 03:55am

Uraniun235 wrote:
NecronLord wrote:I don't see what people are complaining about regarding the ending of the war. The Minbari idea of reincarnation is questionable at best.

Sinclair has Valen's 'soul' because he is Valen, not because he's a reincarnation. This was, however, a misconception that the Vorlons found convinient.
I could swear that they used the magic triangle on a few other captured humans and got reactions out of them as well.

It was a DNA scanner. It read humans as Minbari because Valen had children and for a 1000 years human DNA was being bred into Minbari. Delen has one of the desendents of Valen. The Minbari were fooled by the Vorlons. They were never scanning "souls"

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-20 08:29am

Incidentally, for a genocidal race with superior, err, everything, the Minbari didn't do a terribly good job, even of wiping out whatever base the Prometheus group fled to. David "King Arthur" MacIntyre, the man who actually fired the first shot, a uniformed combattant, survived not only that battle, but the entire war.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2008-01-20 11:29am

I don't think Prometheus was ever actually destroyed. It must have left the base before the Minbari arrived in force. Jankowski committed suicide later according to the novelization.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2008-01-20 12:34pm

Regarding the Triluminary - In The Beginning gave me the impression that the whole situation with the Triluminary was ultimate irony and some Vorlon manipulation. It was set to pick up Valen specifically and his descendants for testing purposes and started beeping because Sinclair WAS Valen (as Necron pointed out before). If they scooped up any other pilot, it wouldn't have worked and the Minbari would have torched Earth.

Where I think Vorlon manipulation came into it was the whole "Truth Points to Itself" business. When Delenn decided to pick a pilot at random, Kosh stepped in and telepathically pointed to Sinclair's fighter to ensure that Delenn made the right choice. The Vorlons, of course, knowing these event already since Sinclair-as-Valen told them what was going to happen 1000 years ago during the previous Shadow War, knew where and when to be to make sure history completed itself.

As for Delenn and War Crimes... well, that's tricky.

The problem is that you get really different accounts about the scale of the war. On one hand, you've got Londo describing the war that up to the Battle of the Line, only around 250,000 humans had died total during the war and that most of those were soldiers and starship crews, all of which died in the attempt of repelling the Minbari.

On the other hand, while Londo would actually be a reasonably good source of information given that he was actually there and had the benefit of history on his side, if all what he was saying was true, just how the hell did we arrive at the sheer amount of fucked up Minbari war veterans and all that talk about humanity's near extinction, from human sources? 250,000 is a significant number, but if all Londo said was true, then the American Civil War was far bloodier than the Minbari war. While that's a large loss of life, if you look at it from the human perspective, humanity didn't go to the brink of extinction at all. Those numbers just don't seem to line up with the general awe and horror and aftereffects of the Minbari war we observe.

However, in either case, trying Delenn for war crimes wouldn't be a hard sell. You could certainly argue that she was part of the Grey Council and did order humans be slaughtered. Even if she recanted, she took no actions to ACT on that repentance. Even if she didn't want humanity's extinction she sure didn't do a whole lot to prevent it until the Vorlons rigged the circumstances. It doesn't matter if she didn't want it to happen in that case, she did nothing to stop it when she was in a position to do so and the only ACTION (that is, voted in council to launch the Minbari military against Earth) she took was very much pro-"Kill All Humans" stance. Given that, regardless of her opposition to genocide, she very much would have been responsible for it had it come to pass. Anything the Minbari military did is certainly on her hands, so she'd have to take responsibility if we were to try her.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-20 12:52pm

As far as we know, she's the only member of the council who would have voted no, though. Or at least in a minority. So it wouldn't matter how many times it was brought up...

As for the 250,000, that's repeated in A Late Delivery from Avalon, if I recall correctly, and is basically a consistant figure. I suspect the limit on human casualties was because humanity only had so many warships.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2008-01-20 12:54pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Even if she recanted, she took no actions to ACT on that repentance.

Not true. Behind the scenes she tried to get her Ranger friend to set up a meeting and try and find a way out of the situation. Whether she did more on the side that we didn't see is impossible to know, but clearly she felt as if any typical action through the Grey Council was useless.

One could make a case that she should have acted far sooner than she did, but regardless she DID take some actions to try and stop the war. The Centuari fucked that up for them.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2008-01-20 01:10pm

NecronLord wrote:As far as we know, she's the only member of the council who would have voted no, though. Or at least in a minority. So it wouldn't matter how many times it was brought up...

It probably would have 4 to 5 in her favor if they revoted. Remember, she was the deciding vote when it came to the "hunt down and massacre humans" thing.

Besides, it's not like she couldn't force the issue. After all, the Religious Caste and the Warrior Caste would later schism on the issue of Delenn sending ships to protect Sheridan and Babylon 5, where Delenn destroyed the Council because the Warriors were being dicks and lead a Minbari civil war, the first one in a 1000 years. All of which culminated in her standing in standing in an actual Fiery Circle of Doom to prove she had bigger balls than Neroon. Frankly, if she was willing to break the council and plunge her people into Civil War after a 1000 years of peace, then nearly incinerate herself just to save her boyfriend's hash, I think she can do more than pace and mope on the issue of the extinction of an entire race.

As for the 250,000, that's repeated in A Late Delivery from Avalon, if I recall correctly, and is basically a consistant figure. I suspect the limit on human casualties was because humanity only had so many warships.

I'm not doubting the figure, it just seems awfully small a number given that the Minbari were supposed to be about to wipe the human race off the map.

There is that humanity had only so many ships to deliver soldiers and to fight the Minbari, but at the same time, it seems like every other hobo in Down Below is a Minbari War veteran with PTSD. I know they are a metaphor for Vietnam War Vets, but still. If you believe all the numbers, the Minbari simultaneously nearly killed the human race within two years AND was really bad at killing humans.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2008-01-20 01:13pm

CaptJodan wrote:Not true. Behind the scenes she tried to get her Ranger friend to set up a meeting and try and find a way out of the situation. Whether she did more on the side that we didn't see is impossible to know, but clearly she felt as if any typical action through the Grey Council was useless.

One could make a case that she should have acted far sooner than she did, but regardless she DID take some actions to try and stop the war. The Centuari fucked that up for them.

You mean that half assed behind the scenes talk between Sheridan and the old Ranger that no one but Delenn would listen to? Yeah, that's a great plan when an entire race is about to have their homeworld burned on her orders.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-20 01:19pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:It probably would have 4 to 5 in her favor if they revoted. Remember, she was the deciding vote when it came to the "hunt down and massacre humans" thing.

It was 'Should we stay here and investigate why the animals did this, or kill them immediately.' Once the Minbari had actually begun to fight, and gone to war, it is likely that opinions would shift towards finishing what they had begun. 'Stay the Course' as it were. If she could stop the war by voting, I rather think, rather than mouthing off about 'this Great War must be stopped' and sending her friends into physical danger of capture and torture, she would have done so, no?

Besides, it's not like she couldn't force the issue. After all, the Religious Caste and the Warrior Caste would later schism on the issue of Delenn sending ships to protect Sheridan and Babylon 5, where Delenn destroyed the Council because the Warriors were being dicks and lead a Minbari civil war, the first one in a 1000 years. All of which culminated in her standing in standing in an actual Fiery Circle of Doom to prove she had bigger balls than Neroon. Frankly, if she was willing to break the council and plunge her people into Civil War after a 1000 years of peace, then nearly incinerate herself just to save her boyfriend's hash, I think she can do more than pace and mope on the issue of the extinction of an entire race.

You assume that Delenn's influence is static throughout her career, and that barely out of her apprenticeship, admittedly to the revered leader himself, but still, she would be listened to in the same way as she would over a decade later.

I'm not doubting the figure, it just seems awfully small a number given that the Minbari were supposed to be about to wipe the human race off the map.

Yes. There's some very silly numbers in a lot of sci-fi though.

There is that humanity had only so many ships to deliver soldiers and to fight the Minbari, but at the same time, it seems like every other hobo in Down Below is a Minbari War veteran with PTSD.

As one of the few places Minbari actually go that humans would not be noticed, I imagine B5 would be a logical draw for people looking for a chance to pay them back.

I know they are a metaphor for Vietnam War Vets, but still. If you believe all the numbers, the Minbari simultaneously nearly killed the human race within two years AND was really bad at killing humans.

Easy. Kill the fleet at the line. Begin surface bombardment. Then move out, killing every (now functionally undefended) world in the same manner. Assuming they did not possess the desire to make cobalt-bombs and similar salted devices, and would not use mass drivers, they could initially cause mass destruction simply by firing a volley of missiles. I would estimate there were something on the order of fifty to a hundred ships there, each armed with six twenty megaton missiles. An initial volley against Earth could effectively destroy three to six hundred cities.

Assuming urbanisation is the same as it is today, devoting those to getting rid of the top hundred cities would annihalate many hundreds of millions of people. Further devastation would take longer, of course, and eventually, the most effective way would probably be to work towards atmospheric dust loading, or some form of biological weapons.

Assuming they had to wait for tenders to re-arm them, then they would still be able to do considerable damage to the remaining major habitation centres in the time between reloads by sitting in orbit and attacking them with beam weapons, as shown briefly in Babylon 5: The Lost Tales. This also ignores the possibility of biological and chemical weapons, not to mention the capacity of thousands of Nail fighters to make ground attacks.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2008-01-20 02:14pm

NecronLord wrote:It was 'Should we stay here and investigate why the animals did this, or kill them immediately.' Once the Minbari had actually begun to fight, and gone to war, it is likely that opinions would shift towards finishing what they had begun. 'Stay the Course' as it were. If she could stop the war by voting, I rather think, rather than mouthing off about 'this Great War must be stopped' and sending her friends into physical danger of capture and torture, she would have done so, no?

I think the only people who were actually enthusiastic about the war were the Warrior caste. The rest, not so much. The fact is, all we saw her do was mope and cry about it. Her big plan to stop the war with her crazy old coot ranger friend wasn't even half assed, it wouldn't even rate. She barely lifted a finger to undo her mistakes, even when ultimate responsiblity for the war fell on her.

You assume that Delenn's influence is static throughout her career, and that barely out of her apprenticeship, admittedly to the revered leader himself, but still, she would be listened to in the same way as she would over a decade later.

Yes, she was the newest of the Grey Council at the time and was apprentice to Dukhat, but the Grey Council was the supreme leaders of the entire Minbari people. If you are the least influential of the nine most influential people in your nation, you damn well better have a ton of influence. Given that she succeeded Dukhat in the council, she must have had an accomplished career under her belt already and large amounts of pull with the Religious Caste. After all, if the President gets shot, it's not his favorite wet behind the ears intern that becomes the next President, it's the next in the chain of succession. She couldn't have gotten there if she already wasn't a big deal.

Besides, I seem to recall that when she schismed the Grey Council, she wasn't even part of it anymore. Neroon powerplayed her and took her spot because she was reviled for diluting the purity of the Minbari race by becoming half human and forging a relationship with the Star Killer and all that happy bullshit. Not even Lennier was happy with that, and near was all about Delenn. She may have been powerful enough to get warships for B5, but she was already kind of on dicey waters politically at the time. If anything, her influence was waning when she used her authority to save her boyfriend.

Frankly, I don't see why if she was willing to trust the Minbari into a civil war on behalf of Sheridan during the twilight of her career, she couldn't have been a BIT more forceful when it came to their people committing genocide over an incident that any moron could see was their fault in the first place. Instead, all she did was bellyache.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2008-01-20 02:21pm

Gil Hamilton wrote: You mean that half assed behind the scenes talk between Sheridan and the old Ranger that no one but Delenn would listen to? Yeah, that's a great plan when an entire race is about to have their homeworld burned on her orders.

It was clear no one in the council was listening to any of her pleas, whatever they may have been, to stop the war by that point. A behind-the-scenes mission was the best she had, if for nothing else than to get the ball rolling.

As for HER order, I don't recall her ordering the destruction of Earth itself. She did scream out "No Mercy" and all that in the beginning. After the destruction of the base, she calmed down, and from that moment on she wasn't working towards a goal of wiping out humanity. She sure as hell didn't personally order the glassing of Earth that I recall.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-20 06:24pm

Your argument is that the one incident during the war at the highest level of insular Minbari government that Mollari knows about and tells to children decades later, must be the only thing she tried. It may be. It might also not be the only thing she tried. Only a Kangeroo court would send someone to the gallows for that.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2008-01-21 05:40pm

NecronLord wrote:Your argument is that the one incident during the war at the highest level of insular Minbari government that Mollari knows about and tells to children decades later, must be the only thing she tried. It may be. It might also not be the only thing she tried. Only a Kangeroo court would send someone to the gallows for that.

That sounds an awful lot like you are asking me to prove a negative there, Necron. Be careful with that.

However, where the hell do you think Londo heard the story from in the first place? Remember, he was only on Earth during the Minbari War and very likely evacuated before the Battle of the Line. He wasn't privy to the Minbari end of the story AT ALL.

Mollari almost certainly heard the story straight from Delenn herself, particularly given the scenes where she was the only person in the room who was either survived to meet Londo or was a Vorlon (notice that every single scene with the Minbari in it had either Delenn or Sheridan in it, both of whom knew Londo personally later). That is the only way he would have known about the Minbari end of ALOT of things, including the half assed secret mission she sent, given that said mission was discussed entirely between her and the old Anla'shok dude.

So tell me, if she honestly pursued other avenues to stop the war, don't you think she would have told Londo that, given the wealth of detail that Londo had for everything else?

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2008-01-21 10:07pm

I'm not even clear why you feel you can nail her on genocide.

1. She recanted after her moment of rage. And regardless as to whether you personally think she did enough, she did attempt to stop the war in the means she had at her disposal.

2. The war was, as far as we know, largely against military targets. I can't remember any instances where they talked about the Minbari slaughtering civilians. Their overall intent in the final analysis was likely genocide, but they never got around to even starting the process of killing non-military personnel in droves. And again, Delenn didn't likely support such actions. The Minbari ultimately simply neutralized their capacity to fight.

3. The only true war crime I can think of that the Minbari performed with malice and forethought was the Black Star's tactic of destroying ships sending out distress calls. Even then, this is largely the responsibility of the Warrior Caste, who are more likely to have issued such orders rather than the entire Council.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2008-01-21 11:11pm

Yeah, that's a great plan when an entire race is about to have their homeworld burned on her orders.

Making bullshit up hurts your case.

If in your ideal world Delenn is convicted of attempted genocide, one wonders just how many other Minbari you would like to convict.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2008-01-22 08:39am

In all fairness to Gil, command responsibility was established post-WWII. To be guilty of war crimes, at least in a human tribunal, Delenn would not have to issue orders to exterminate Earth. The standard of evidence named after that Japanese general (I forget his name) is Delenn doesn't even have to know war crimes are going on. She just has to be lax in her command, to not do enough to find out about war crimes or prevent war crimes. This is obviously a very subjective measure, and is not truly asking the prosecution to prove a negative. "To not do enough to find out and prevent war crimes" can be rephrased as "To do too little to find out and prevent war crimes." If Delenn was tried by a human court, she would technically be guilty of war crimes even if she gave passive consent to extermination by virtue of the 4-5 vote.

But, that is a human standard. I actually see no ethical imperative to convicting someone of attempted war crimes. Unlike murder and attempted murder, where the baseline is all humans should be expected to act ethically at all times and the law is supposed to punish them if they don't, war itself throws out certain rules to guarantee victory. Civilians may be targeted if they contribute to the military industry. Depending on the nature of the war, simply fighting to win can be a war crime. This seems to be the point Gil is bringing up, that the Minbari-Earth war was billed as a total war and the low numbers are a brainbug of low scale rather than non-existence of the total war. But again, the human standard of war crime certainly isn't a universal standard. If the war was truly total like Gil said, then the low numbers show extremely selective targeting by the Minbari to the point of sacrificing military progress.

In other words, highly unlikely even by human standards that any war crimes were committed. So the crux of the issue is attempted war crimes.

Even if Delenn was convicted by a human court, it would be attempted war crimes which would surely carry less of a sentence than actual war crimes in any proper legal system. The death penalty would be off the table, and at worst she would receive a prison term. However, in any progressive legal system the main intent is rehabilitation first, then deterrent (although this rarely works) and finally revenge as a very bottom consideration. Definitely she would receive the lightest sentence possible, if that at all.

As for killing prisoners or not taking on prisoners, I am reminded of submarines refusing to take on survivors. It may be that taking on large numbers of survivors is an extreme security risk. Again, sheltering large numbers of POW is a luxury for limited war. I'm not saying that the Minbari couldn't have taken on large numbers of prisoners, but without knowing the details it's impossible to say. And again, it is a human standard. You could make the argument that killing any uniformed soldier is kosher in a total war, even ones that surrender, because captured enemy troops sap your own mobility and progress. You can't leave them or they'll be picked up by their own people to fight again, so you kill them.

War is shit.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-22 09:38am

Gil Hamilton wrote:That sounds an awful lot like you are asking me to prove a negative there, Necron. Be careful with that.

This thread presumes a trial. Most of us believe that such things should be 'innocent until proven guilty.' To asset that she did nothing is conjecture, and would not stand up in any fair trial. You claim she did nothing but send the leader of the Rangers off on a crazy mission, because Londo did not know about anything else, and tell it to children.

Her actions there may be representative of what she did during the war, or they might be the only thing she did during the war. I say that without further evidence on the matter, there is no way to tell.

You assert that Delenn tried nothing else during the war. Prove this.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2008-01-22 02:04pm

NecronLord wrote:This thread presumes a trial. Most of us believe that such things should be 'innocent until proven guilty.' To asset that she did nothing is conjecture, and would not stand up in any fair trial. You claim she did nothing but send the leader of the Rangers off on a crazy mission, because Londo did not know about anything else, and tell it to children.

Her actions there may be representative of what she did during the war, or they might be the only thing she did during the war. I say that without further evidence on the matter, there is no way to tell.

You assert that Delenn tried nothing else during the war. Prove this.

You are asking me the prove a negative. There is no way I can demonstrate that she DIDN'T try more stuff. That's just bad logic.

However, we can only base our evidence one what is presented, assuming a trial. We know a far bit about what Delenn did, because presumably she gave Londo a highly detailed account (before you contest this, she told him about the goings on inside Dukhat's personal chamber AND the presence of the Vorlons, which was a rather need to know thing considering that only she and the old ranger dude were even allowed to be in there).

Had she done anything significant to end the war, Londo would have certainly mentioned it. I suppose you could argue that he mentioned the thing with the ranger because he was personally culpable in wrecking that plan (one of the many myriad things that could have gone wrong there, given how half baked the plan was), but if she had honestly done anything more than complained about it, we would have heard about it. Therefore, it is reasonable to state that she did nothing else.

What hangs her is that she was the person who launched the war in the first place, particularly given how painfully obvious it was that the Minbari were the ones who provoked the incident. She also would have executed Sheridan and Franklin after they surrendered (had it not been for the Anla'shok guy giving Sheridan an out), was personally present to oversee the destruction of Earth, and ordered Sinclair tortured. And as Brian noted, she was part of the Minbari leadership, who were persecuting the war to exterminate the human race. That makes her culpable for the actions of the Minbari right there. Had she resigned from her office, that would have been one thing, and it certainly would have absolved her if she schismed (as she did later for considerably less important reasons than stopping a massacre of an entire people), but she didn't. She persisted to stay in the Grey Council and shares responsiblity for their actions. At best, she was the loyal opposition. That's what gets her here.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2008-01-22 02:17pm

CaptJodan wrote:I'm not even clear why you feel you can nail her on genocide.

1. She recanted after her moment of rage. And regardless as to whether you personally think she did enough, she did attempt to stop the war in the means she had at her disposal.

In the words of my uncle: "You are responsible for everything you do, even when you are angry, drunk, or stoned."

She voted to pursue a total war against the human race over an incident that any person who wasn't a complete moron could see was their fault. She was part of the Minbari leadership who lead that war. It doesn't matter if she was really, really sorry. She didn't do anything of consequence to make up for her actions.

2. The war was, as far as we know, largely against military targets. I can't remember any instances where they talked about the Minbari slaughtering civilians. Their overall intent in the final analysis was likely genocide, but they never got around to even starting the process of killing non-military personnel in droves. And again, Delenn didn't likely support such actions. The Minbari ultimately simply neutralized their capacity to fight.

Everyone agreed that the Minbari were going to massacre the human race as soon as they ran out of ships to blow up, which happened at the Battle of the Line. They were going to start with the greatest concentration of humans first, had it not been for the Vorlons pulling a fast one on them.

3. The only true war crime I can think of that the Minbari performed with malice and forethought was the Black Star's tactic of destroying ships sending out distress calls. Even then, this is largely the responsibility of the Warrior Caste, who are more likely to have issued such orders rather than the entire Council.

Delenn personally:
1) Orders the destruction of the human base that launched the Prometheus without mercy and to the man, regardless of whether or not they surrendered. This action leads to the Minbari War, which she remained one of the leaders of.
2) Orders Sheridan and Franklin to be murdered after they surrendered and were taken prisoner. Only Sheridan repeating back something that the old ranger taught him saved their lives.
3) Orders Sinclair to be captured and brutally tortured, then submitted to the Triluminary gizmo. His memories were then altered.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-22 04:14pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:You are asking me the prove a negative. There is no way I can demonstrate that she DIDN'T try more stuff. That's just bad logic.

My point was 'we only see a small part of the war, and in that part, she is, after her initial outrage, consistantly working to end it.' If you want to make a case that she wasn't doing everything in her power to make it stop, I'd like to see some solid evidence, beyond your assumption that the Grey Council's vote for Immediate Retaliation/Investigation First is the same as any later vote for War/Not War.

Had she done anything significant to end the war, Londo would have certainly mentioned it.

That event is significant only because it involves people he knew, and gives him personal guilt. Why would Londo care so much about 'Delenn argued with the Council to stop the war after five thousand humans were killed at the Battle of Splatticon Five?' as he does about his own personal involvement in the war and guilt regarding that.

but if she had honestly done anything more than complained about it, we would have heard about it.

Because the Grey Council's records are publically known to aliens. It's not like Delenn assaults and threatens G'Kar (now there is a crime) for even speaking its name at one point, is it?

What hangs her is that she was the person who launched the war in the first place, particularly given how painfully obvious it was that the Minbari were the ones who provoked the incident.

At the time? As far as they knew, they scanned the enemy ships, and the enemy ships opened fire. At the time, they presumably didn't know that their scanners were so much more powerful than those of the Earthers that they could be considered an attack in themselves. While the gunports thing is idiotic, it is hardly provokation to open fire.

She also would have executed

Because she thought that they had tricked her friend out there and then murdered him (presumably with aid from an Earthforce ship) under a flag of truce. I'd put them to death for that, too.

That makes her culpable for the actions of the Minbari right there.

She was also the member of the Grey Council who (under guidance from the Vorlons) ended the war.

Had she resigned from her office,

Is it even possible to resign as Satai?

that would have been one thing, and it certainly would have absolved her if she schismed (as she did later for considerably less important reasons than stopping a massacre of an entire people),

And? She'd presumably have been imprisoned as a traitor... She broke the council when she thought it would achieve something.

but she didn't. She persisted to stay in the Grey Council and shares responsiblity for their actions. At best, she was the loyal opposition. That's what gets her here.

Charged for genocide that didn't happen, mm?

She is no more guilty of genocide against humanity than the Vorlon High Command is guilty of committing genocide against the Centauri. Certainly, it was planned, and there were hostilities, but the nuclear destruction of the USSR was planned, that doesn't mean that Kennedy, Truman, or any other cold war president is guilty of committing it.

What she may be guilty of is presiding over lesser crimes committed by the Minbari, but one wonders how reasonable some such charges were.

For example, the Black Star example. Yes, it came and destroyed ships signalling distress - those ships were still capable of fighting to some degree. Indeed, they actually destroyed three Minbari ships. The Minbari consider that (using distress signals to lure them into a trap) to be dishonourable, and indeed, that in itself is probably a warcrime, assuming those distress signals constitute a white flag, rather than some kind of encrypted request for aid from Earthforce.

Indeed, one wonders how many humans actually surrendered; one of the few things we do see is members of the civillian population taking up arms and fighting the Minbari, when we know from Minbari MO that they would have been safe if they'd not done so and remained in the bunker. It's likely from the casualty statistics, that the Minbari didn't even make much effort to destroy the civillian production facilities for Earthforce assets. One attack similar to the Bombing of Dresden would have massively increased that number.

The humans fought with 'knives and sticks and bare hands' and the one example we do have of individual 'surrender' was a trap that killed hundreds of Minbari. I doubt many of the two hundred and fifty thousand the Minbari had killed - with the exceptions of those Delenn thought had just shot an ambassador under a flag of truce - had actually surrendered.

Torture, given the ex-Earthforce hobos that brag about having done it, is clearly something both sides did, and I would hesitate to convict either side for not respecting that particular law of war without knowing who did it first (surely the Earthers, if the Minbari had not before taken a human prisoner at the time of the Battle of the Line).

The war crime that I would convict her of would be refusing to accept Earth's various surrender attempts.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2008-01-22 09:48pm

Gil Hamilton wrote: She voted to pursue a total war against the human race over an incident that any person who wasn't a complete moron could see was their fault. She was part of the Minbari leadership who lead that war. It doesn't matter if she was really, really sorry. She didn't do anything of consequence to make up for her actions.

That we know of. Admittedly you're right, you can't prove a negative, but I hardly believe that there weren't other methods of persuasion she tried to use to stop the war through the Council. She didn't approve of the war from the moment after the first attack. She was a pathetic shell of a creature near the end, seeming to be resigned to the fact that nothing she said would even make a dent in people's minds. (this, in addition to what Necron brought up, mind you) She didn't have the power or influence to stop what was happening, and resigning her station wasn't likely to improve matters any.

The onus sways far more in favor of the Warrior Caste being convicted before you even get to her, with far harsher punishments.

Everyone agreed that the Minbari were going to massacre the human race as soon as they ran out of ships to blow up, which happened at the Battle of the Line. They were going to start with the greatest concentration of humans first, had it not been for the Vorlons pulling a fast one on them.

There's a difference between planning a genocide and executing one. The Minbari stopped short of said genocide. It doesn't matter what they planned. You can't hang her on a genocide she never truly endorsed. (The "kill all of them" could be argued by the defense as those who attacked them, not the entire race)

2) Orders Sheridan and Franklin to be murdered after they surrendered and were taken prisoner. Only Sheridan repeating back something that the old ranger taught him saved their lives.

Beyond what Necron pointed out, the fact that she recanted (this time prior to their deaths) makes this moot. They lived, and even better, were returned (or given the means to do so) to Earth and their military service by her personal order.

3) Orders Sinclair to be captured and brutally tortured, then submitted to the Triluminary gizmo. His memories were then altered.

Which is probably not information which would be available at trial. Even Sinclair didn't know about it until 10 years after the war.

I have to point out that only a complete idiot would, clinching a surrender from an enemy that was minutes/hours away from totally wiping out your population, would then turn around and even demand a war crimes tribunal on the leadership of the very people who could just as easily could have wiped you out. The Minbari would just as likely give you the finger and wonder why they didn't just finish the job, Valen DNA be damned (probably the attitude of the Warrior Caste anyway).

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2008-01-24 10:40am

NecronLord wrote:My point was 'we only see a small part of the war, and in that part, she is, after her initial outrage, consistantly working to end it.' If you want to make a case that she wasn't doing everything in her power to make it stop, I'd like to see some solid evidence, beyond your assumption that the Grey Council's vote for Immediate Retaliation/Investigation First is the same as any later vote for War/Not War.

Attacking a military base isn't an Act of War in what universe, Necron? She voted to attack and slaughter the Earth Alliance base, which clearly started the war. She made her vote on the issue.

And frankly, at this point you are trying to shift the burden of proof on to me. I cannot demonstrate she did nothing else, logically. However, you can demonstrate that she did. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to show that she did do something significant other than talk to end the war.

That event is significant only because it involves people he knew, and gives him personal guilt. Why would Londo care so much about 'Delenn argued with the Council to stop the war after five thousand humans were killed at the Battle of Splatticon Five?' as he does about his own personal involvement in the war and guilt regarding that.

Because if she had acted elsewhere, it would have been a significant part of the story. Her complaining is not a significant action. Hell, sending that ranger guy to Sheridan barely qualified given how absurdly easily that plan could have gone wrong.

This is ridiculous. You need to post evidence that she actually took some action to stop the war in a significant manner or concede that she did nothing. The burden of proof is on you here, since I cannot prove a negative. Otherwise, you have to concede that all she did was whine while Minbari on her orders were out slaughtering humans and going to commit genocide.

Because the Grey Council's records are publically known to aliens. It's not like Delenn assaults and threatens G'Kar (now there is a crime) for even speaking its name at one point, is it?

Are you dense? Of course they aren't. However, Delenn clearly told Londo this entire story at one point. After all, if the goings on of the Grey Council were secret, than the goings on of inside Dukhat's Forbidden Room with the ranger and the vorlons certainly would have been, since no one BUT Delenn and Kosh survived to tell the story.

Given that Londo received a highly detailed account of everything else, if Delenn had actually taken serious action, she certainly would have told Mollari and Mollari would have repeated it in his story. After all, he didn't leave out anything else in there.

At the time? As far as they knew, they scanned the enemy ships, and the enemy ships opened fire. At the time, they presumably didn't know that their scanners were so much more powerful than those of the Earthers that they could be considered an attack in themselves. While the gunports thing is idiotic, it is hardly provokation to open fire.

OK, so you see an alien ship that you've never seen before come about, you start getting scanned (even if it doesn't blow out half your electrical system), and it heads straight toward you, opening it's gunports and deploying its guns.

Do you assume:
(A) Wow, they are opening their gunports to show us they are approaching us openhanded and honestly! What nice people!
(B) Oh shit, they are about to start shooting at us!

You would have to be a grade A moron to assume the first. Hell, even in the movie, Dukhat immediately orders the gunports closed when he hears what they were doing (demonstrating that he has at least half a brain under his bone).

All told, even if the Minbari didn't know that their sensors were frying the Earth ships, it takes a special kind of rampant stupidity not to realize that they were clearly approaching the vessels in a way that really looked like they were about to start shooting. The Earth vessels were entirely justified in shooting first and asking questions later. What would you have assumed and done? Would you have waited until AFTER the unknown alien ship started shooting to open fire?

Hell, this is where Delenn has personal culpability in the war. If she had stopped to rub two neurons together, she'd have figured out what went wrong there and that they were at fault. Instead, she starts ranting about no mercy and destroying human animals. That's what puts the blood spilled during the Minbari war squarely in her hands and what makes her responsible for the Minbari's actions during the war.

Because she thought that they had tricked her friend out there and then murdered him (presumably with aid from an Earthforce ship) under a flag of truce. I'd put them to death for that, too.

And you'd be guilty of a war crime. They don't know what happened there and would be silly to assume that the Earthforce bombed their own guys. Executing uniformed prisoners after they've peacefully surrendered is a crime.

Is it even possible to resign as Satai?

Why not? She later gives up membership of the Grey Council to become the head of the Rangers after all, so they've got an "only way out is in a coffin" rule.

And? She'd presumably have been imprisoned as a traitor... She broke the council when she thought it would achieve something.

You mean like she was imprisoned as a traitor when she sent warships to defend her boyfriend and then broke the circle then, causing the worker and religious castes to side with her?

She is no more guilty of genocide against humanity than the Vorlon High Command is guilty of committing genocide against the Centauri. Certainly, it was planned, and there were hostilities, but the nuclear destruction of the USSR was planned, that doesn't mean that Kennedy, Truman, or any other cold war president is guilty of committing it.

Wrong there. They were in the process of doing it when the Vorlons pulled a fast one on them. The fact that they only managed to kill a few hundred thousand humans before they gave up on the whole "kill all humans" thing doesn't mean that they didn't make the attempt in the first place.

For example, the Black Star example. Yes, it came and destroyed ships signalling distress - those ships were still capable of fighting to some degree. Indeed, they actually destroyed three Minbari ships. The Minbari consider that (using distress signals to lure them into a trap) to be dishonourable, and indeed, that in itself is probably a warcrime, assuming those distress signals constitute a white flag, rather than some kind of encrypted request for aid from Earthforce.

If you wave a white flag and the enemy takes the opportunity to use that white flag to shoot some more at you, you are under no obligation not to continue fighting. The Minbari were committing war crimes by destroying surviving ships and lifeboats that had given away their position by calling for rescue.

The fact that it was there to kill them when it assumed they were helpless is the war crime, not Sheridan blowing it up. That just shows how hypcritical the Minbari are. Shooting defenseless ships? Honorable combat! Using the fact that Minbari shoot defenseless ships to destroy one of their ships? A base act of treachery, worth of being labelled the Starkiller and being hissed and spit at for the next ten years (though, frankly, were I Sheridan, I'd adopt Starkiller as a nickname, because normally you need to be a Decepticon to have a name like that).

Indeed, one wonders how many humans actually surrendered; one of the few things we do see is members of the civillian population taking up arms and fighting the Minbari, when we know from Minbari MO that they would have been safe if they'd not done so and remained in the bunker. It's likely from the casualty statistics, that the Minbari didn't even make much effort to destroy the civillian production facilities for Earthforce assets. One attack similar to the Bombing of Dresden would have massively increased that number.

The humans fought with 'knives and sticks and bare hands' and the one example we do have of individual 'surrender' was a trap that killed hundreds of Minbari. I doubt many of the two hundred and fifty thousand the Minbari had killed - with the exceptions of those Delenn thought had just shot an ambassador under a flag of truce - had actually surrendered.

Wow, are you really trying to justify what the Minbari did in the wa? Really?

Besides WE know that Minbari MO probably would have meant they would have been passed over. The people who were huddled in bunkers during the Minbari attack weren't privy to that information, particularly since from everything they've heard and seen, the Minbari don't take prisoners or quarter of any kind.

And as I pointed out, the Centauri didn't like hit the ranger guy with a sniper bullet and set them up, they bombed the bunker itself. In order to conclude that Sheridan and Franklin were responsible for the ranger guys death, they'd have had to have assumed that the Earthforce bombed their own war hero and ignore G'Kar's testimony about what happened.

, given the ex-Earthforce hobos that brag about having done it, is clearly something both sides did, and I would hesitate to convict either side for not respecting that particular law of war without knowing who did it first (surely the Earthers, if the Minbari had not before taken a human prisoner at the time of the Battle of the Line).

Do we know if that guy was actually telling the truth or was a crazy hobo with PTSD? I remember that episode, there wasn't much evidence that he actually did any of that stuff other than his own crazy rants and given what we saw in "In The Beginning", he wouldn't have had much opportunity to do so. Certainly not in a state approved systematic fashion, since the humans never won a battle in order to take prisoners.

The crime that I would convict her of would be refusing to accept Earth's various surrender attempts.

That's something, I suppose, but I think you're been too much of an apologist here for her actions.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2008-01-24 02:51pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Attacking a military base isn't an Act of War in what universe, Necron? She voted to attack and slaughter the Earth Alliance base, which clearly started the war. She made her vote on the issue.

The EA started the war by shooting first.

What would you have assumed and done? Would you have waited until AFTER the unknown alien ship started shooting to open fire?

Yes, since this is a first contact situation.

Is it even possible to resign as Satai?
Why not? She later gives up membership of the Grey Council to become the head of the Rangers after all, so they've got an "only way out is in a coffin" rule.

Actually I think she was kicked out of the Grey Council when she refused to quit playing ambassador to Babylon 5.

And? She'd presumably have been imprisoned as a traitor... She broke the council when she thought it would achieve something.
You mean like she was imprisoned as a traitor when she sent warships to defend her boyfriend and then broke the circle then, causing the worker and religious castes to side with her?

She broke the council because they refused to do anything about the Shadow situation.

Greay Council wrote:The problem of others do not concern us.

Regarding the open gunports: Did you know that dogs consider showing ones teeth a agressive move.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2008-01-24 10:29pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:were I Sheridan, I'd adopt Starkiller as a nickname, because normally you need to be a Decepticon to have a name like that

"Captain John 'Starkiller' Sinclair" does have a certain ring to it.