More Traviss nonsense

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2008-01-21 09:31am

Alexian Cale wrote:
that will spend the majority of his life half way across the galaxy from his family and may spend only enough time at home to knock up his wife again and then go to the next job.
You've described half of America rather succinctly.

Stop spamming motherfucker.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2008-01-21 12:07pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Does she realize that the Soviet Front-Armies attacking Berlin in 1945 had 2.5 million men in them? That the average daily number of shells fired by allied troops on the western front in WW1 during 1918 was almost 500,000? That at the Battle of Berlin, also, 1st Guards Tank Army concentrated 650 artillery pieces per every kilometre of front for their breakthrough attack across the Teltow Canal? And that wasn't counting the katyushas.

Three million troops would have been ground up to bits in less than a year of fighting on the Ostfront in WW2 or the Western Front in WW1. And those were conflicts fought when most of the world wasn't even industrialized. Frankly if she wasn't an official author I'd say she ought just be laughed at and ignored. As it stands, the levels of ignorance are, as usual, despicable, and we'll leave it at that, I suppose.

But Duchess, you're forgetting that these clones are UBER soliders. They can kill off... like... 200 droids each! And that means that they'd fight a force of like... [gets person who's good with numbers to multiply 200 by 3 million] six hundred million droids! That's gotta be a big enough number for these morons!

General_Soontir_Fel wrote:I never thought Besany Wennen was KT's Mary Sue self-insert, but it makes sense.

One trait of the Mary Sue is that she gets away with behavior unacceptable from others.

Frankly, if anyone in the actual SW universe were to try to make arguments this dumb they'd be dismissed like the conspiracy theorists who argue that the US blew up the World Trade Center. Let's see:
1. Ludicrous conspiracy theory? Check.
2. Utterly inane evidence for said theory? Check.
3. Theory implicates HUGE numbers of people, who somehow manage to keep the secret amongst themselves without ever telling anyone about it? Check.
4. All experts disagree with them? Check. [Funny how even KT's own analyst is against her on this one.]
5. When confronted with evidence against this theory, these people either completely disregard said evidence or repeat their original position ad nauseum, rather than contemplating the possibility of a more reasonable error? Check.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2008-01-21 12:51pm

Couldn't any of the authors do something about this (like Troy Denning)? The actual continuity people covering these things don't seem to really give a shit either way, so couldn't, say, Denning, kill off Boba Fett in a way that leaves absolutely no doubt about his death (like having Ben cut off his head, then have the government verify it was him)?

It'd piss off Traviss to no end, but I can't see her so completely raping continuity as to actually resurrect a confirmed dead character who had died in the prior book, even if he's her pet.

General Soontir Fel · Post by **General Soontir Fel** » 2008-01-21 01:48pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:Couldn't any of the authors do something about this (like Troy Denning)? The actual continuity people covering these things don't seem to really give a shit either way, so couldn't, say, Denning, kill off Boba Fett in a way that leaves absolutely no doubt about his death (like having Ben cut off his head, then have the government verify it was him)?

You know the first thing KT would do is claim it was his clone.

Tiriol · Post by **Tiriol** » 2008-01-21 02:27pm

This is actually just a logical reflection of the Iraq War mentality: after all, US forces entered the country intent in occupation despite lacking the manpower to do so. While discussion could be in order about where the US government got this strange notion of occupying a sizeable country with below-minimum amount of troops, Ms. Traviss here just follows the same logic: if your troops are better trained than those of the opposition, then the importance of raw numbers diminishes astronomically. Of course, since she's also locked in her desire to maintain "3 million invidual clones" status quo, it means that there cannot be TOO many droids - after all, even the infamous Waffen-SS and arguably better-trained German forces lost to the Red Army.

As such, Ms. Traviss is merely the product of not only poor understanding of logistics and art of warfare, but also of the political and cultural climate in which she grew up and which surrounds her. And since this is a fictional universe she can hold her grip on her illusions as long as she likes, in stark contrast with the unforgiving reality.

Her focus on the Mandalorians isn't that surprising, too: the "cool" factor of that face-concealing helmet and classical "lonely cowboy" image (vilified even more in Preacher's Saint of Killers than in the mercenary-like Fetts) have captured the imaginations of many. Her obsession, on the other hand, borders on infatuation. Perhaps she finds the actor who played Jango Fett and the clones handsome; and perhaps she gre attached to the clone characters she wrote about, enough for her to project their image on EVERY SINGLE FETT-BASED CLONE AND EVEN FETTS THEMSELVES.

It's rather sad, really.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2008-01-21 03:28pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
But Duchess, you're forgetting that these clones are UBER soliders. They can kill off... like... 200 droids each! And that means that they'd fight a force of like... [gets person who's good with numbers to multiply 200 by 3 million] six hundred million droids! That's gotta be a big enough number for these morons! :lol:

The sad part is that reviewing their tactics and abilities you'd probably find out that Ernst Juenger could kill one with the butt of a rifle. The Mandalorians appear to have more or less a hunting culture, and even KT's battles aren't terribly realistic. A real elite soldier used to infiltrating through no-man's land to launch outnumbered storm attacks from a war like that, when tens of thousands of shells would be sweeping through your position and a thousand rifles firing over your head has incomparable skills of survival to her glorified comic book heroes. In fact, those same skills would be very necessary to survive as a soldier on a Star Wars battlefield, where nuclear artillery would be commonplace.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2008-01-21 11:04pm

Bass, you are absolutely right.

I never minded that Fett returned from the dead for the EU. But Chewie's dead, Ackbar's dead, Mara Jade is dead, Anakin Solo is dead...it is LONG past time for Fett to die.

General Soontir Fel · Post by **General Soontir Fel** » 2008-01-21 11:42pm

Anguirus wrote:Bass, you are absolutely right.

I never minded that Fett returned from the dead for the EU. But Chewie's dead, Ackbar's dead, Mara Jade is dead, Anakin Solo is dead...it is LONG past time for Fett to die.

You forgot Crix Madine and Mon Mothma. But of course, they don't have hordes of fanboys, so it went OK...

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2008-01-22 01:36am

General_Soontir_Fel wrote:
Guardsman Bass wrote:Couldn't any of the authors do something about this (like Troy Denning)? The actual continuity people covering these things don't seem to really give a shit either way, so couldn't, say, Denning, kill off Boba Fett in a way that leaves absolutely no doubt about his death (like having Ben cut off his head, then have the government verify it was him)?
You know the first thing KT would do is claim it was his clone.

That's why you'd have to do it in a way that leaves absolutely no room for doubt. Like having the Mandalorians sell him out, shoot him, have someone from the Republic seize his corpse, then have it verified that it was Fett himself (including a big scene where they go over specifically why it has to be him and not a clone).

I figured you could probably get away with it since the continuity people seem apathetic, but then, I don't know how well Traviss's books sell; if Fett brings customers, they would probably be reluctant.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2008-01-22 01:59am

*cough*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXMu_67dBqk

(Don't praise me for this; I just put it together. Thanks go to Connor, Duchess, and Ossus)

Post by **Kuja** » 2008-01-22 11:42am

General_Soontir_Fel wrote:You forgot Crix Madine and Mon Mothma. But of course, they don't have hordes of fanboys, so it went OK...

YOU SHUT THE HELL UP

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2008-01-22 01:12pm

I knew I was forgetting some folks. I always thought Madine kinda got the shaft...though Mothma probably lasted TOO long.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2008-01-22 05:20pm

Want to really and trully tear her numbers apart? Lookj at ep 4-6

25,000 Stardestroyers and weach had a complement of stormtroopers. Ibelieve the number was a 100 each .So 25,000x1,000=25,000,000. Thats not counting garrisons and whatnot.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2008-01-22 05:21pm

The typical MARDET attached to the commonest one-mile Imperial Star Destroyer numbered 9,700 men.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2008-01-22 07:41pm

It's worth repeating from previous threads: the size of the population of Coruscant, a single affluent core planet, is on the order of 1e15 persons. 3 million men is literally less than a drop in the bucket compared to this, with a ratio of 3e-9 clones to men on Coruscant, whereas, for a brimful five gallon bucket, a drop of water 1 cm in diameter is only 2.8e-5 drops to the bucket! Put differently, you need a third of a billion, or about 330 million clone "grand" armies to make up the population of Coruscant, while you only need 36,000 drops of water to make up a five gallon bucket!

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2008-01-22 07:44pm

Quoted from "Rattling the Saber":

In the last days of the old Galactic Republic, Supreme Chancellor Palpatine had promulgated the Sector Governance Decree (mentioned in Revenge of the Sith), pursuant to which governors were to be installed “on every planet in the Republic”; within days of the Decree’s promulgation, these governors were “arriving with full regiments of clone troops.” The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, Second Edition states that the Republic “embraced over a million worlds, and countless more colonies, protectorates, and governorships,” with “nearly 100 quadrillion beings” as citizens of the Republic spread over “nearly fifty million systems.” Both Inside the Worlds of Attack of the Clones and “Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic” state that a regiment consisted of 2,304 troops; therefore, the deployment of a regiment to every inhabited planet in the Republic would represent a deployment of 115.2 billion troops to permanent garrison duty. If one assumes instead that each regiment was deployed instead as a household regiment for each Sector Governor, one must then consider that Coruscant and the Core Worlds establishes that each Senator represents a Sector, and Revenge of the Sith mentions that the two thousand Senators signing the Petition of the Two Thousand were unable to overturn Palpatine’s supermajority in the Senate (because a supermajority is by definition larger than a simple majority, this would require at least one vote more than more than half the votes cast, requiring that Palpatine’s supermajority consist of at least 2,002 votes, indicating at least 4,002 Sectors in the Republic). Using this much more conservative premise (which may not comply with the statement in Revenge of the Sith that the regiments were to be used as “security forces”), one arrives at the rather smaller figure of 9,220,608 troops deployed on permanent garrison duty.

It is worth noting that "Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic," whose figures are used herein to demonstrate the existence of some 115 billion soldiers ready for deployment to garrison duty, was written by Ryan Kaufman and Karen Traviss.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2008-01-22 07:46pm

Surlethe wrote:It's worth repeating from previous threads: the size of the population of Coruscant, a single affluent core planet, is on the order of 1e15 persons. 3 million men is literally less than a drop in the bucket compared to this, with a ratio of 3e-9 clones to men on Coruscant, whereas, for a brimful five gallon bucket, a drop of water 1 cm in diameter is only 2.8e-5 drops to the bucket! Put differently, you need a third of a billion, or about 330 million clone "grand" armies to make up the population of Coruscant, while you only need 36,000 drops of water to make up a five gallon bucket!

Bravo, sir. Brilliantly done.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2008-01-22 08:08pm

Surlethe wrote:It's worth repeating from previous threads: the size of the population of Coruscant, a single affluent core planet, is on the order of 1e15 persons. 3 million men is literally less than a drop in the bucket compared to this, with a ratio of 3e-9 clones to men on Coruscant, whereas, for a brimful five gallon bucket, a drop of water 1 cm in diameter is only 2.8e-5 drops to the bucket! Put differently, you need a third of a billion, or about 330 million clone "grand" armies to make up the population of Coruscant, while you only need 36,000 drops of water to make up a five gallon bucket!

Poe this needed to be included in that video you put up. It's depressing, humorous, and revealing all at the same time. Surlethe has hit this right on the money.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2008-01-22 08:14pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Surlethe wrote:It's worth repeating from previous threads: the size of the population of Coruscant, a single affluent core planet, is on the order of 1e15 persons. 3 million men is literally less than a drop in the bucket compared to this, with a ratio of 3e-9 clones to men on Coruscant, whereas, for a brimful five gallon bucket, a drop of water 1 cm in diameter is only 2.8e-5 drops to the bucket! Put differently, you need a third of a billion, or about 330 million clone "grand" armies to make up the population of Coruscant, while you only need 36,000 drops of water to make up a five gallon bucket!
Poe this needed to be included in that video you put up. It's depressing, humorous, and revealing all at the same time. Surlethe has hit this right on the money.

1 cm diameter? Hmm, that is a pretty big drop.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2008-01-22 10:42pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote:Poe this needed to be included in that video you put up. It's depressing, humorous, and revealing all at the same time. Surlethe has hit this right on the money.
1 cm diameter? Hmm, that is a pretty big drop.

If you assume the drops are only 1 mm in diameter, the number of drops increases only by three orders of magnitude, or 36 million drops (the number of clone armies needed is still an order of magnitude above this).

The average drop is larger than 1 mm, so the "grand" army is still literally less than a drop in the bucket.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2008-01-23 08:42am

Wyrm wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote:Poe this needed to be included in that video you put up. It's depressing, humorous, and revealing all at the same time. Surlethe has hit this right on the money.
1 cm diameter? Hmm, that is a pretty big drop.
If you assume the drops are only 1 mm in diameter, the number of drops increases only by three orders of magnitude, or 36 million drops (the number of clone armies needed is still an order of magnitude above this).

The average drop is larger than 1 mm, so the "grand" army is still literally less than a drop in the bucket.

Go with this. In a decent burette you can get drops on the order of .10 mL. In 5 gallons there are 18927 mL so there are 189,270 .1mL drops in the bucket. So a ratio of 5.2e-6 against the Clones at 3e-9. That's still three order's of magnitude greater unless I've gotten my unit conversion off at some point.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-01-23 08:50am

So what does this woman say when people bring up so-called "facts" like China having a standing military that's more than half that of the Grand Army of the Republic, or "statistics" like that shtick about the Eastern Front Duchess brought up?

wjs7744 · Post by **wjs7744** » 2008-01-23 09:08am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:So what does this woman say when people bring up so-called "facts" like China having a standing military that's more than half that of the Grand Army of the Republic, or "statistics" like that shtick about the Eastern Front Duchess brought up?

And what would happen if her "Grand" Army of the Republic tried to invade earth. 3,000,000 troops should do it easily, right? I mean, the various armies of the world only have about 20,000,000 men at arms, not counting reserves. The Grand Army of the Republic would be slaughtered. It says something when someone can, with a straight face, claim that a Galactic Republic can't even raise the same army as a single planet.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2008-01-24 03:19pm

wjs7744 wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:So what does this woman say when people bring up so-called "facts" like China having a standing military that's more than half that of the Grand Army of the Republic, or "statistics" like that shtick about the Eastern Front Duchess brought up?
And what would happen if her "Grand" Army of the Republic tried to invade earth. 3,000,000 troops should do it easily, right? I mean, the various armies of the world only have about 20,000,000 men at arms, not counting reserves. The Grand Army of the Republic would be slaughtered. It says something when someone can, with a straight face, claim that a Galactic Republic can't even raise the same army as a single planet.

The numbers that she toutes and clings to so desperately become even more ludicrous when you look at the other EU books in this timeline outside from her own. Take for example, Jedi Trial, where a garrison of 20,000 clone troopers was dispatched to help liberate a vital communications center on Praestilyn. It is worth noting that the Republic wanted to allocate more to this force but they were all that was "immediately available." Wookiepedia link

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is 1/150th of the entire "Grand Army" by her numbers from a single garrison? Does she seriously believe that in a Galatic Republic of how many countles systems and planets, there can merely be only 150 forces worth of garrisons...not even counting active participants on the war fronts. It's mind boggling.

Edit: Missed a zero

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2008-01-24 04:59pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:So what does this woman say when people bring up so-called "facts" like China having a standing military that's more than half that of the Grand Army of the Republic, or "statistics" like that shtick about the Eastern Front Duchess brought up?

She yells at them, makes accusations of misogyny inisisting no one would dare criticize her work if she was a man, calls them 'Talifans' and threatens to rip their tracheas out.