Canadian muslims ironically prove anti-islamist right

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CaptainChewbacca
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Canadian muslims ironically prove anti-islamist right

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

You just can't make this stuff up.
December 16, 2007 -- Celebrated author Mark Steyn has been summoned to appear before two Canadian judicial panels on charges linked to his book “America Alone."

The book, a No. 1 bestseller in Canada, argues that Western nations are succumbing to an Islamist imperialist threat. The fact that charges based on it are proceeding apace proves his point.

Steyn, who won the 2006 Eric Breindel Journalism Award (co-sponsored by The Post and its parent, News Corp), writes for dozens of publications on several continents. After the Canadian general-interest magazine Maclean's reprinted a chapter from the book, five Muslim law-school students, acting through the auspices of the Canadian Islamic Congress, demanded that the magazine be punished for spreading “hatred and contempt" for Muslims.

The plaintiffs allege that Maclean's advocated, among other things, the notion that Islamic culture is incompatible with Canada's liberalized, Western civilization. They insist such a notion is untrue and, in effect, want opinions like that banned from publication.


Two separate panels, the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal and the Canadian Human Rights Commission, have agreed to hear the case. These bodies are empowered to hear and rule on cases of purported “hate speech."

Of course, a ban on opinions - even disagreeable ones - is the very antithesis of the Western tradition of free speech and freedom of the press.

Indeed, this whole process of dragging Steyn and the magazine before two separate human-rights bodies for the “crime" of expressing an opinion is a good illustration of precisely what he was talking about.

If Maclean's, Canada's top-selling magazine, is found “guilty," it could face financial or other penalties. And the affair could have a devastating impact on opinion journalism in Canada generally.

As it happens, Canadian human-rights commissions have already come down hard on those whose writings they dislike, like critics of gay rights.

Nor should Americans dismiss this campaign against Steyn and Maclean's as merely another Canadian eccentricity. Speech cops in America, too, are forever attempting similar efforts - most visibly, on college campuses.

In fact, New York City itself has a human-rights panel that tries to stamp out anything deemed too politically incorrect.

Since 9/11, Americans have been alert to the threat of terror from radical Islamists. But there's been all too little concern for a creeping accommodation of radical Islamist tenets, like curbs on critical opinions.

That needs to change.
And da link

Its times like this when I wish I had a giant 'IRONY' sign flashing and at the ready.
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Post by fgalkin »

"America Alone" is just more "Hur hur, teh brown people are outbreedink us soon we'll all be teh muslems!" xenophobic nonsense. Of course, CAIR, and its like organizations do act in the stereotypical "evil muslim" way, so it's a case of the broken clock being right.

Have a very nice day.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Yeah, only Muslims would ever do something as horrible as launching a frivolous lawsuit or judicial complaint. Thank God we're about to do something to silence those damned jihadist fanatics and their attempts to act like other special interest groups have been for the last 30 years.

And not a moment too soon ... we could be OVERRUN BY THE MUSLIM HORDE!!!!! Run in terror!

What a load of bullshit. If Canadian Muslims really were about to prove that this asshole is right, then he'd be dead by now. All they're doing is trying to abuse the court system, like ... oh, everybody else with an axe to grind.
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Post by Ryan Thunder »

Darth Wong wrote:Yeah, only Muslims would ever do something as horrible as launching a frivolous lawsuit or judicial complaint. Thank God we're about to do something to silence those damned jihadist fanatics and their attempts to act like other special interest groups have been for the last 30 years.

And not a moment too soon ... we could be OVERRUN BY THE MUSLIM HORDE!!!!! Run in terror!

What a load of bullshit. If Canadian Muslims really were about to prove that this asshole is right, then he'd be dead by now. All they're doing is trying to abuse the court system, like ... oh, everybody else with an axe to grind.
Maybe I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think he literally meant that he thought the man was right...

*flinches* :lol:
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Post by Molyneux »

I think it'd be safe to say that hate speech legislation is "incompatible with Canada's liberalized, Western civilization", regardless of the man's book or the Islamic students' reactions.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Molyneux wrote:I think it'd be safe to say that hate speech legislation is "incompatible with Canada's liberalized, Western civilization", regardless of the man's book or the Islamic students' reactions.
Bullshit.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

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"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Post by Molyneux »

Darth Wong wrote:
Molyneux wrote:I think it'd be safe to say that hate speech legislation is "incompatible with Canada's liberalized, Western civilization", regardless of the man's book or the Islamic students' reactions.
Bullshit.
Oh, thank you for that oh-so-helpful, one-word response.
Might I deign to ask why you think it is bullshit?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Molyneux wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Molyneux wrote:I think it'd be safe to say that hate speech legislation is "incompatible with Canada's liberalized, Western civilization", regardless of the man's book or the Islamic students' reactions.
Bullshit.
Oh, thank you for that oh-so-helpful, one-word response.
Might I deign to ask why you think it is bullshit?
Go fuck yourself, moron. I gave precisely as many reasons for my rebuttal as you did for your argument. You have a lot of gall to come after me for not giving reasons to dismiss your a priori statement.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Darth Wong wrote:
Molyneux wrote:I think it'd be safe to say that hate speech legislation is "incompatible with Canada's liberalized, Western civilization", regardless of the man's book or the Islamic students' reactions.
Bullshit.
Agreed. Some things are just as destructive as yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre (if not even more), it's just instead of being a simple explosion and damage is done, it's more insidious, acidic, and corrosive. This is also why I support the categorization of Right Wing Authoritarianism as a pathological mental illness, incidentally.
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Post by Molyneux »

Darth Wong wrote:
Molyneux wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Bullshit.
Oh, thank you for that oh-so-helpful, one-word response.
Might I deign to ask why you think it is bullshit?
Go fuck yourself, moron. I gave precisely as many reasons for my rebuttal as you did for your argument. You have a lot of gall to come after me for not giving reasons to dismiss your a priori statement.
All right, then;
While the concept of limiting legal protection for 'hate speech' may be valid, in practice it has far too often been turned to limit valid criticism of a religion or group. That is precisely what the Islamic students are attempting to do in the OP; while I hope that they are laughed out of the proceedings, there seems to be enough leeway in Canada's hate-speech laws that the issue has yet to be decided.

To be more blunt, I reserve the right to criticize and insult any religious, ethnic, political, or otherwise-associated group, so long as my speech is not provably untrue and does not constitute a call to break the law. I refrain from using terms such as 'nigger', 'chink', 'kyke' and 'shylock', but I can see no legal basis for, and every reason to oppose, penalizing the use of those words (calling the user a bigoted idiot, on the other hand, I'll join in with immediately).

I see hate-speech laws, as written, as often coming uncomfortably close to blasphemy legislation.
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Post by brianeyci »

If anybody watches Studio 2 on TVO, last night they had guests talking about this. One of the Canadian lawyers was on the program saying the narrow Supreme Court decision allowing hate crime laws to come into play was a mistake, because of the way it's worded. As long as someone is offended, a prosecutor can launch a hate crime law and the only check and balance is a sane Attorney General. Prosecutors need special permission from the Attorney General to prosecute hate crimes under the Federal Code, because of the possibility of abuse. And even then, the full penalty is rarely followed through. The guy who got his Order of Canada stripped was fined one thousand bucks. No prison time, no nothing, and he was a Jew hater.

Ultimately hate crime laws depend on prosecutors not being fucking stupid and seeing the difference between being critical of a religion and inciting Jew killing. A person on the show said she read the book and it was talking about Muslims overseas, but then another Muslim lawyer said he read the book and said the book painted them all with the same brush. The Muslim lawyer said he would not agree tactically or legally with the CIC decision to sue, but that it the suit was long in the coming due to Muslim frustration at being painted as a "fifth column, eventual takeover, terrorists in training, destruction of Western values."

The author's rebuttal was scathing; something along the lines of "I don't have to give a fucking shit about what those people say, because if they're offended then I'm offended too by their gall to challenge free speech, and we're even."

Certainly the Muslim community is not a monolithic entity -- the Muslim lawyer made it a point that they can't even fucking agree to a school. It would totally depend on the wording of the book if I said the author deserves to be raped by fees and fines, or if I said fuck off. Mike makes it a point to differentiate between fundamentalist Christians and moderate Christians, and if this author does not then it all goes out the shitter and could very well be hate speech. A medium like a book has enough room to split the hairs, unlike a cartoon.
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Post by Darth Wong »

If this case proved that Steyn was right about Muslims, I guess this other case proves that the anti-Semites are right about those damned Jews:
Hate crime ruling riles Jewish groups
Saskatchewan Court of Appeal upholds decision throwing out native leader Ahenakew's conviction
Jan 15, 2008 04:30 AM
Tim Cook
The Canadian Press

REGINA–David Ahenakew scored a legal victory yesterday when the Saskatchewan Court of Appeal upheld a lower court's ruling throwing out his hate-crime conviction and ordering a new trial.

The disgraced aboriginal leader's lawyer welcomed the ruling and asked the Crown to back off so his 74-year-old client can have some peace.

But Jewish groups pushed prosecutors to take the case to the Supreme Court of Canada and clarify the ruling, which they say raises the bar for conviction under Canada's hate laws.

"We think it's wrong," said Steven Slimovitch, a lawyer for the Jewish advocacy group B'nai Brith, an intervener in the appeal. "There's no question it opens the door for someone to wilfully promote hatred as long as they didn't spend excessive time planning and preparing and deliberating about it."

The Canadian Jewish Congress echoed B'nai Brith's call to prosecutors.

Ahenakew was originally convicted in provincial court of wilfully promoting hate and fined $1,000 for comments he made to a reporter in December 2002.

Court heard how the former chief of the Assembly of First Nations referred to Jews as a "disease" and appeared to endorse the actions of Adolf Hitler.

Ahenakew made the comments when he was approached by the reporter after giving a 45-minute, profanity-laced speech in which he blamed Jews for World War II.

But his conviction was overturned by Chief Justice Robert Laing of Court of Queen's Bench, who ruled the trial judge did not properly assess whether Ahenakew had the requisite intent to be convicted of a hate crime.

Laing pointed out that the reporter approached Ahenakew for an interview and his hateful remarks were made spontaneously in response to questions.

In appealing Laing's ruling the Crown had argued that Ahenakew, who had given countless interviews as a First Nations leader, knew he was talking to a reporter and could have offered no comment to the question he was asked.

But the three judges on the Court of Appeal unanimously sided with Laing. They said Ahenakew's remarks about Jews were "brutal," but not necessarily criminal.

"Mr. Ahenakew's comments, on any standard, were shocking, brutal and hurtful. However, that is not the measure of the offence prescribed by ... the Criminal Code," wrote Justice Robert Richards on the court's behalf.

"It engages only in circumstances where a person `wilfully promotes' hatred against an identifiable group. I agree with the appeal judge that, at trial, there was a failure to consider all of the evidence relevant to the question of whether Mr. Ahenakew had the intent necessary for a finding of guilt."

Crown lawyer Dean Sinclair said it's too early to say what the next move will be.
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/294028

Notice how the judge specifically pointed out that, contrary to Molyneux's bullshit, it is NOT enough under the law to express a terrible opinion about a minority. The only thing that any of this proves, as I pointed out earlier, is that religious groups are capable of taking people to court for frivolous reasons, which makes them oh so unique in this country, right?
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

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Post by Molyneux »

Darth Wong wrote:If this case proved that Steyn was right about Muslims, I guess this other case proves that the anti-Semites are right about those damned Jews:
*snip*
That motherfucker has his head up his ass so far it's a wonder he hasn't turned into an Ouroboros...but as filthy as his mind is, I'm glad the conviction was overturned.

Now if everyone points and laughs at the brain-diseased, bigoted little shit, that's the appropriate response.
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Post by Molyneux »

Crap. Sorry, I didn't see the bit you wrote after you posted the article; if Canada's hate-crime laws are limited like that, then I was mistaken about pointing to them as going too far.
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Post by Glocksman »

Looking more into this, I found these interesting links:

First up is a letter to the editor from 'Canuckstan Bob' at Salon over Glenn Greenwald's 'consequences of hate speech laws' piece.

Link
I want to clear a few things up here, but before I do that, I should make it clear that I think that both Canada's Hate Crimes laws and Human Rights tribunals are pretty much a bad bad ideas, that I do not support them.

But the distinction is important. The Criminal Code does indeed make hate speech a crime; there have been very few prosecutions under it, and the results of those prosecutions have been such that subsequently very few prosecutions have been brought. (Incidentally, such prosecutions are at the discretion of the Crown, and cannot be brought by individuals or groups.) The first problem is that convictions are exceedingly difficult to get (we still do have a court system that is if anything generally less political and allied with the Executive than in the US, though still rather conservative). The worse problem is linked with this: a court trial gives the hate-monger a massively bigger megaphone-- the Ernst Zundel trial proved that, with the media repeating the ludicrous defence claims at face value.

But that is beside the point, because the Human Rights tribunals are a different kettle of fish entirely. (Full disclosure: I have a personal acquaintance with Mr. Levant, and rather strong opinions about his character and conduct; also, I myself have been involved with several matters before the Alberta Human Rights Tribunal.) Basically, they mostly deal with housing, employment, etc. issues, the US has pretty much the same sort of thing under different names. In fact the complaint against Mr. Levant was not actually about hate speech per se, which is as I said a criminal matter, though in effect that is how it is working out. The Human Rights Commissions do not in fact deal with things like hurt feelings, but real actual substantive losses.

First of all, yes, the tribunals do have a rather minimal power to fine, but mostly, by design, in theory anyway, their biggest sanction is to drag ugly conduct into the light of day (ugly conduct, that is, by all parties). In practice, this has not worked out so well, because like every government bureaucracy, they move at a glacial pace. Levant's case being a case in point; the complaint is at least a couple of years old.

But the proceedings are not quite as Levant portrays them. First of all, the process is pretty much entirely pro se; lawyers are typically not involved, and really aren't much help. This is why I have been involved: any disgruntled former employee or tenant can file a complaint (hand-scrawled on the form, said hand-scrawling being something that Mr. Levant for some reason feels is highly pertinent; well, he is a bigoted asshole after all).

When the tribunal gets around to it, it investigates, with a view to either dismissal or mediation (which is the stage that Mr. Levant is currently in) or failing that, moving to a full hearing. He was dealing with an investigator, not the tribunal itself. He in fact did not have to meet with her at all. Generally, this meeting (I have been through several) is held at your office and at your convenience; you are not dragged in anywhere, unless you want to grandstand, and once again, do not have to participate. Generally, it is in your interest to do so, because the vast majority of complaints are wound up at this stage.

So no, this is not some sort of secret star-chamber hearing, it is a meeting with an investigator/mediator who is trying to figure out what is going on. And just like a meeting with an insurance adjuster or a tax auditor or yes, even a police detective, a request to bring an audience and tape the proceedings and so on would likely be met with some resistance. In fact it seems to me that the investigator was bending over backwards to be accommodating.

Based on my experience, I would expect that, outside of Mr. Levant's grandstanding, the whole matter would have been dismissed at this point. If it goes forward, under current practise, precedent, regulation, and legislation, the whole thing will wash out pretty quickly. And I don't think that Mr. Levant has in any way been hurt by it; on the contrary, he rather looks like the cat that swallowed the canary at this point.

Something that as a Canadian (and incidentally, also a dual citizen American) I have to explain once in a while: the US was founded on the principles of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness;" Canada was founded on the principles of "Peace, Order, and Good Government," which what you see working here. While as an American I actually share the maximalist position on free-speech, and think my other country is a bit wrong-headed on this issues, I do not take it as a given that those who do not share this approach are necessarily on a slippery slope to tyranny. Maybe they are just seeking a reasonable balance (which is why the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is such a boring read), exercised in a thoughtful, reasonable and accommodating manner.

One of the differences between the US and Canada is that in the US pretty much everything seems to get politicized. Everything from extraordinarily gerrymandered electoral divisions to municipal corrupt municipal commissions seem omnipresent, and simply would not be tolerated in Canada. Given that background and political culture, I think that the US as every right to deeply fear such things as Human Rights Commissions. I too have read the history of HUAC.
His last sentence sums up my position on free speech pretty clearly.
Given the current administration's predilection to classify even the most innocuous things, I shudder to think what'd happen if the Feds had the power to decide 'hate speech' was illegal and censor it.

Next up is a speech given by the Right Honourable Beverley McLachlin, P.C., Chief Justice of the Canadian Supreme Court on 'Protecting Constitutional Rights: A Comparative View of the United States and Canada'.

It's fairly long, so I'll post some highlights.
The entire transcript can be found
here
But let me come to one area where people of both countries not only see important differences but are currently engaged in a vigorous debate about which approach is preferable: I refer to the fundamental freedoms protected by our respective constitutions. The case can be made that Americans and Canadians have different perceptions of the relationship of the individual to the state and as a consequence, a quite different approach to the fundamental freedoms and liberties our constitutions guarantee to each citizen.

To illustrate this difference in approach, I would like to briefly highlight three aspects of the constitutional protection of fundamental freedoms in Canada: First, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms contains an explicit recognition that rights are subject to reasonable limits flowing from public or collective interests. Second, the Canadian constitution guarantees rights that are intended to recognize minority communities and enhance their vitality. In both respects, the Canadian constitution is a product of Canada’s history. Third, many rights and freedoms in Canada are subject to a legislative override, found in the notwithstanding clause of section 33 of the Charter.
Canada, like the United States, has a constitutional guarantee of free expression. Our Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees freedom of expression, subject to such reasonable limits as are "demonstrably justifiable in a free and democratic society". In other words, we have free speech, but the state can limit it in reasonable ways. This may be contrasted with the absolute language of the First Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights, which states: "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech or of the press." The words of the Canadian guarantee acknowledge the state's right to limit free speech; the words of the American guarantee forbid the state from doing so.
Free speech plays out differently above and below the 49th parallel in other less publicized yet significant ways. Hate speech finds significantly more protection in the United States than in Canada. Provided hate propaganda laws are tightly enough drafted, they pass muster under the Canadian Charter. In the United States, by contrast, little short of incitement to violence can be legally limited.
She goes on to discuss other aspects where Canadian law is different from US law, such as government support for religious schools and group rights.
At the risk of over-generalization, it might be ventured that, as a general rule, individual rights in Canada are more circumscribed, and collective or “group” rights, protecting linguistic, religious or aboriginal communities, are more generous than in the United States. In the United States the ethic of the individual is foremost; in Canada there is more concern for the general public welfare and members of disadvantaged groups.

The third major distinction in the way our respective constitutions treat rights lies in the legislative override provision found in section 33 of the Charter. Section 33 permits Parliament or a provincial legislature to “override” decisions of the Supreme Court invalidating laws for violation of the Charter. This gives an infringing government two lines of defence. First, the government can argue that the infringement is justified under section 1 of the Charter, as I have already discussed. Second, if that doesn’t work, the government may uphold the infringement by so stipulating in a law. This applies to all rights, with the exception of basic democratic rights, mobility rights and linguistic rights. The override is effective for five years, but can be renewed.

At first impression, the Canadian override provision stands in stark contrast to the absolute finality accorded to the constitutional pronouncements of the United States Supreme Court. In fact, the actual situation in the two countries is not dissimilar, thus far in any event. The section 33 override has only seriously been invoked on one occasion, by the Province of Quebec, to maintain language legislation the Supreme Court had found incompatible with the Charter guarantee of free expression. The Charter enjoys broad popular support, and governments appear reluctant to be seen as depriving citizens of constitutional rights. Only time will tell if section 33 represents, in fact, an important qualification on Charter rights. But at least in theory, it supports the view that the Canadian approach to rights is less individualistic, and more collective and deferential to government, than the American.
She ends it by examining how the US and Canadian perceptions grew from our different historical experiences.

All in all, her speech seems to be a credible explanation of why the US and Canada regard things such as hate speech differently.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

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