National American Religious History Week!

[Covenant]

Read it for yourself.

It's just as dumb as it sounds.

Whereas the first week in May each year would be an appropriate week to designate as `American Religious History Week': Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That the United States House of Representatives----

(1) affirms the rich spiritual and diverse religious history of our Nation's founding and subsequent history, including up to the current day;

(2) recognizes that the religious foundations of faith on which America was built are critical underpinnings of our Nation's most valuable institutions and form the inseparable foundation for America's representative processes, legal systems, and societal structures;

(3) rejects, in the strongest possible terms, any effort to remove, obscure, or purposely omit such history from our Nation's public buildings and educational resources; and

(4) expresses support for designation of a `American Religious History Week' every year for the appreciation of and education on America's history of religious faith.

I've already written into my Rep, but it's a republican, so I have no idea what she'll do. I made clear that on MLK day, it's important to remember faith leaders in our communities, but also that he was taught his nonviolence by a non-Christian, and that the brilliant thoughts that inspired the founders of America were borne of Greek pagan minds that were considered heretical by the Christian orthodoxy. Regardless, this is pretty much bullshit, and is posted therefore with comment.

[The Vortex Empire]

America? Built on faith? Sorry, whoever came up with this idea, it's not.

[Covenant]

This is actually the followup to a similar bill that already passed. The one that's, sadly, already on the books is this:

H. Res. 847
In the House of Representatives, U. S.,
December 11, 2007.

Whereas Christmas, a holiday of great significance to Americans and many other cultures and nationalities, is celebrated annually by Christians throughout the United States and the world;

Whereas there are approximately 225,000,000 Christians in the United States, making Christianity the religion of over three-fourths of the American population;

Whereas there are approximately 2,000,000,000 Christians throughout the world, making Christianity the largest religion in the world and the religion of about one-third of the world population;

Whereas Christians and Christianity have contributed greatly to the development of western civilization;

Whereas the United States, being founded as a constitutional republic in the traditions of western civilization, finds much in its history that points observers back to its Judeo-Christian roots;

Whereas on December 25 of each calendar year, American Christians observe Christmas, the holiday celebrating the birth of their savior, Jesus Christ;

Whereas for Christians, Christmas is celebrated as a recognition of God's redemption, mercy, and Grace; and

Whereas many Christians and non-Christians throughout the United States and the rest of the world, celebrate Christmas as a time to serve others: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) recognizes the Christian faith as one of the great religions of the world;
(2) expresses continued support for Christians in the United States and worldwide;
(3) acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Christmas and the Christian faith;
(4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the western civilization;
(5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide; and
(6) expresses its deepest respect to American Christians and Christians throughout the world.

[Pablo Sanchez]

That's actually an interesting act of congress from the perspective of legalistic bullshit, because it is a good marker for exactly how close the government can get to endorsing a religion without actually doing it.

[Alyrium Denryle]

and both of them fail planks 1 through three of the lemon test

[Darth Wong]

America? Built on faith? Sorry, whoever came up with this idea, it's not.

I think the real problem here is that people seem incapable of differentiating ideas from the people who came up with them. They think the American system of government is based on Christianity because it was created by people who were primarily Christian. They think that science is based on Christianity because the modern scientific method was devised in western Europe, which was primarily Christian. But by this silly pseudo-logic, mustard gas is based on Christianity too.

[Covenant]

It's quite more likely to draw accurate paralells between the Jewish 'curse of destruction', the passover haze, and mustard gas than it is to draw them between the scientific method of critical thought and Christianity. So it's particularly odius that they are even trying to essentially rewrite history at this date to retroactively add into the literature (somewhere) that Christianity is ever-important to the government. If I could move, I would, I'm just about fed up with the system here.

[HemlockGrey]

America? Built on faith? Sorry, whoever came up with this idea, it's not.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Religious faith has had an incredibly important impact on the very structure of this nation from Day One. The state structure was meant to be secular to but to say that America as a nation was not built on faith is to deny a hugely important swath of American cultural history.

[Covenant]

America? Built on faith? Sorry, whoever came up with this idea, it's not.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Religious faith has had an incredibly important impact on the very structure of this nation from Day One. The state structure was meant to be secular to but to say that America as a nation was not built on faith is to deny a hugely important swath of American cultural history.

Saying it played a part and saying faith is the foundation of the republic are two wildly different things. Many of the elements in our original laws were widely regarded as disreputably a-religious back when they were written, and a great deal more was written in spite of that religious intitution, and to protect ordinary Americans from it. There are extremely few instances of the founders or others writing laws or structuring the country to fit a religious ideal, but many instances where they attempted to move the country away from it. I'd say you're pretty off on your statement, unless you were just meaning it philosophically, and didn't actually mean they were at all inspired by the Bible when they wrote all men are created equal.

[Darth Wong]

America? Built on faith? Sorry, whoever came up with this idea, it's not.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Religious faith has had an incredibly important impact on the very structure of this nation from Day One.

So did negro slavery.

The state structure was meant to be secular to but to say that America as a nation was not built on faith is to deny a hugely important swath of American cultural history.

Indeed. It is just as true as saying that America was built on racism, imperialism, and negro slavery, yet you rarely hear people boasting about that.

[HemlockGrey]

Indeed. It is just as true as saying that America was built on racism, imperialism, and negro slavery, yet you rarely hear people boasting about that.

So? America was built on all kinds of things, positive and negative. I don't agree with the idea of a "religious history week", but Vortex was being ignorant.

[Covenant]

Indeed. It is just as true as saying that America was built on racism, imperialism, and negro slavery, yet you rarely hear people boasting about that.

So? America was built on all kinds of things, positive and negative. I don't agree with the idea of a "religious history week", but Vortex was being ignorant.

I'd really challenge the idea that America was built on faith, though. While the pilgrims may have come here on the basis of faith, the colonies they founded had nothing to do whatsoever with the actual spirit and direction of the American States that were founded by the move to independance, which was founded in only the most minor sense on a Christian ideology.

[Spyder]

Indeed. It is just as true as saying that America was built on racism, imperialism, and negro slavery, yet you rarely hear people boasting about that.

So? America was built on all kinds of things, positive and negative. I don't agree with the idea of a "religious history week", but Vortex was being ignorant.

Your founding fathers don't seem to think America was built on faith.

John Adams (the second President of the United States)

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

So on the subject of the whole being ignorant thing...

[Darth Wong]

Indeed. It is just as true as saying that America was built on racism, imperialism, and negro slavery, yet you rarely hear people boasting about that.

So? America was built on all kinds of things, positive and negative. I don't agree with the idea of a "religious history week", but Vortex was being ignorant.

From where I sit, it looks more like you are being pedantic. While one could argue that the statement cannot absolutely be proven wrong per se, it must be noted that if you acknowledge the ease with which your logic could be applied to so many other things, then the phrase "America was built on" becomes utterly meaningless.

The phrase "America was built on X" implies that there was some special relationship between America and X that could not be extended to every other socio-economic factor in force at the time.

[Guardsman Bass]

Indeed. It is just as true as saying that America was built on racism, imperialism, and negro slavery, yet you rarely hear people boasting about that.

So? America was built on all kinds of things, positive and negative. I don't agree with the idea of a "religious history week", but Vortex was being ignorant.

If you are going to be hyperspecific, then technically, most of America wasn't built on faith. The Puritans came to build their little city on the hill, and the Quakers along with William Penn came to set up their colony - but the Virginians, Carolinians, New Yorkers (Dutch and later English) came to get rich, and the Georgians were originally a bunch of second-chance criminals.

In any case, this is irrelevant, since the issue at hand is whether or not America as we know it is founded upon faith, and it's fairly clear that it's not - no more than it would make sense to say that the British government was founded upon faith because most of the population was (and probably still technically is) Anglican.

[Civil War Man]

If you are going to be hyperspecific, then technically, most of America wasn't built on faith. The Puritans came to build their little city on the hill, and the Quakers along with William Penn came to set up their colony - but the Virginians, Carolinians, New Yorkers (Dutch and later English) came to get rich, and the Georgians were originally a bunch of second-chance criminals.

Don't forget Rhode Island, which was founded for religious reasons, but not the kind you would think. Several Puritans (most famously Roger Williams and later Anne Hutchinson) were kicked out of the Bay Colony, primarily for criticizing the clergy. So they went to what became Rhode Island (and Providence Plantations), and founded their own colony with the very purpose of creating a place where there was no state religion. Major destination for incoming Quakers prior to the founding of Pennsylvania.

The founders of Massachusetts wanting a city on a hill. The founders of Rhode Island wanted its citizens to be able to practice their beliefs. Guess which idea made it into the Constitution.

[Frank Hipper]

"Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" have absolutely nothing to do with Christianity...if America had been founded on Christian principles it would have read "Eternal Life After Death, Servitude to God, and the Pursuit of Salvation".

[HemlockGrey]

From where I sit, it looks more like you are being pedantic. While one could argue that the statement cannot absolutely be proven wrong per se, it must be noted that if you acknowledge the ease with which your logic could be applied to so many other things, then the phrase "America was built on" becomes utterly meaningless.

The phrase "America was built on X" implies that there was some special relationship between America and X that could not be extended to every other socio-economic factor in force at the time.

I would dispute the idea that there are very many things that compare to the place faith has had in building the American nation. Even the concepts you listed have not been as continously and totally present throughout the entire span of American history, on all levels of society, as religious faith has been, and continues to be, to this very day. I would argue that there was a special relationship between America and faith that does not apply to war, or imperialism, or slavery, and applies perhaps only to 2-4 other concepts.

As for the rest of you, you are being historically ignorant. The American state is indeed meant to be secular but the actual nation has been so infused with religious faith and the course of American history so infused with religious rhetoric, from the first settlements, to the Great Awakening, to Manifest Destiny, the struggle over slavery, to the first overseas expansion, through the Red Scare, the Cold War, the civil rights movement and until the present day that to claim that America is not a faith-based nation is absolute stupidity.

[Guardsman Bass]

As for the rest of you, you are being historically ignorant. The American state is indeed meant to be secular but the actual nation has been so infused with religious faith and the course of American history so infused with religious rhetoric, from the first settlements, to the Great Awakening, to Manifest Destiny, the struggle over slavery, to the first overseas expansion, through the Red Scare, the Cold War, the civil rights movement and until the present day that to claim that America is not a faith-based nation is absolute stupidity.

I think you are the one who is confusing rhetoric with reality. As I pointed out, most of the colonies weren't defined by their religion in their founding; Rhode Island was founded as the anti-religious establishment colony, and only Massachusetts and Maryland were overtly religious settlements. Religious rhetoric was used as a means of expression by many groups throughout American history, but to claim that America is based on religion for that is idiotic.

For that matter, you could make the same argument about capitalism. Technically, the greater part of America was founded upon Capitalism; the first settlement of the Thirteen Colonies was founded by a Chartered Corporation trying to get rich off their investment, business-related slavery kept slavery alive in America, the US intervened heavily in Latin America in order to protect business investments - I'd argue that the sort of bourgieous capitalism that was held by much of the colonies, religious or not, has been far more prevalent in the American identity that religion has been. Hell, the greater part of the US-Soviet divide was defined as a difference between fundamental views of the economic order, with all the connotations associated therein.

[Covenant]

Not only that, but the relationship between America and faith has shifted dramatically over the years as different interpertations of that faith change, rise and fall in popularity, superstition like the spiritualist and ghost movements get popular along with other occultisms, Catholics begin to arrive in the states (originally thought to be unfit as citizens!) and so on and so forth. I'd say that America has had an extremely antagonistic relationship with faith, and from it's birth, has been fighting against the intolerances of faith. The fact that people do still cling to it notwithstanding does not mean it is a foundation, any more than anything else. If you remove religion from America's literature, the country would still stand. Her laws are not grounded in religion, especially where those laws oppose religion's inroads. The country may have been made by religious men, but that doesn't mean religion was the foundation.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think you are the one who is confusing rhetoric with reality. As I pointed out, most of the colonies weren't defined by their religion in their founding; Rhode Island was founded as the anti-religious establishment colony, and only Massachusetts and Maryland were overtly religious settlements. Religious rhetoric was used as a means of expression by many groups throughout American history, but to claim that America is based on religion for that is idiotic.

Do you understand the difference between the nation and the state? A nation can be religious even if the state has a secular political constitution. The American nation is religious, not secular. I would've thought this be obvious considering the amount of bitching I hear here regularly on the excessive overt religiosity of Americans.

For that matter, you could make the same argument about capitalism. Technically, the greater part of America was founded upon Capitalism; the first settlement of the Thirteen Colonies was founded by a Chartered Corporation trying to get rich off their investment, business-related slavery kept slavery alive in America, the US intervened heavily in Latin America in order to protect business investments - I'd argue that the sort of bourgieous capitalism that was held by much of the colonies, religious or not, has been far more prevalent in the American identity that religion has been. Hell, the greater part of the US-Soviet divide was defined as a difference between fundamental views of the economic order, with all the connotations associated therein.

Even if that was true - you obviously do not understand the difference between a Royal charted joint-stock corporation and a modern business corporation, or the difference between mercantilism and modern capitalism - what does qualify as something a country is built on, if fundamental economic principles and common or characteristic practices would somehow belong to inappropriate criteria? What kind of things are you allowed to say that America is built on? Why can't America be built on different things in different ways and depending on what aspect of America you're talking about?

[Darth Wong]

I would dispute the idea that there are very many things that compare to the place faith has had in building the American nation.

Really? How about sex? Greed? Racism? Violence?

Even the concepts you listed have not been as continously and totally present throughout the entire span of American history, on all levels of society, as religious faith has been, and continues to be, to this very day.

I chose those particular examples randomly. Sex, greed, and racism, however, have been immensely powerful motivators throughout much of world history, and certainly American history, up to the present day. One could just as easily say that America is a sex-based nation, or a greed-based nation, or a racism-based nation.

I would argue that there was a special relationship between America and faith that does not apply to war, or imperialism, or slavery, and applies perhaps only to 2-4 other concepts.

Such as the ones I listed? How many people are going to say that America is a fucking-based nation?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Really? How about sex? Greed? Racism? Violence?

But those do not distinguish. The modern French Republic, although previously predominantly Roman Catholic, is arguably both a secular state, and a secular nation. The U.S. is an ostensibly secular state, but not a secular nation.

Furthermore, whether something is historically true does not reflect whether it ought to remain that way.

I chose those particular examples randomly. Sex, greed, and racism, however, have been immensely powerful motivators throughout much of world history, and certainly American history, up to the present day. One could just as easily say that America is a sex-based nation, or a greed-based nation, or a racism-based nation.

Except all nations could be, and not all modern nations are religious.

Such as the ones I listed? How many people are going to say that America is a fucking-based nation?

Who would say that nations cannot be based or frequently associated with negative things? I think its arguable the Russian nation is politically authoritarian in a pretty integral way.

[Darth Wong]

Really? How about sex? Greed? Racism? Violence?

But those do not distinguish. The modern French Republic, although previously predominantly Roman Catholic, is arguably both a secular state, and a secular nation. The U.S. is an ostensibly secular state, but not a secular nation.

How does that refute my application of HemlockGrey's logic, in which anything which can be said to be influential in society can be described as a basis of the nation?

Furthermore, whether something is historically true does not reflect whether it ought to remain that way.

Red-herring. That has nothing to do with my point.

I chose those particular examples randomly. Sex, greed, and racism, however, have been immensely powerful motivators throughout much of world history, and certainly American history, up to the present day. One could just as easily say that America is a sex-based nation, or a greed-based nation, or a racism-based nation.

Except all nations could be, and not all modern nations are religious.

So? How does that refute my application of HemlockGrey's logic? Not all nations gleefully approve and even encourage individual greed the way America does either.

Such as the ones I listed? How many people are going to say that America is a fucking-based nation?

Who would say that nations cannot be based or frequently associated with negative things? I think its arguable the Russian nation is politically authoritarian in a pretty integral way.

So would you say that America is a fucking-based nation, or a greed-based nation?

[Illuminatus Primus]

How does that refute my application of HemlockGrey's logic, in which anything which can be said to be influential in society can be described as a basis of the nation?

It does not. I am saying that your counterexamples were not universal refutations of useful criteria for judging the basis or historical associations of a nation or aspects of a nation. By sensible standards, I think the U.S. is a religious, if not pious, nation.

That's not the same thing as saying it ought to be that way, or that it is good. I thought you were arguing that America is not culturally based on faith, not simply critiquing Hemlock's criteria.

So? How does that refute my application of HemlockGrey's logic? Not all nations gleefully approve and even encourage individual greed the way America does either.

And I would say that individual greed and its economic implications are very important to understanding America historically and culturally today. I don't think things a country is based on have to be good or sound nice.

So would you say that America is a fucking-based nation, or a greed-based nation?

I would say that America is a greed-based nation because it favors individuality, capitalism, and materialism to a degree distinguishing it from other countries. I would not say America is a fucking-based nation because all countries are composed of people who sexually reproduce. And I would say it is arguable America was built on slavery.