B5 - Would you convict Delenn of War Crimes?

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2008-01-25 10:05am

Adrian Laguna wrote: "Captain John 'Starkiller' Sinclair" does have a certain ring to it.

That's great, but his last name was Sheridan.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2008-01-25 07:44pm

CaptJodan wrote:
Adrian Laguna wrote: "Captain John 'Starkiller' Sinclair" does have a certain ring to it.
That's great, but his last name was Sheridan.

And had it been Sinclair his first name would have been Jeffrey anyway.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2008-01-25 07:50pm

Gustav32Vasa wrote:
What would you have assumed and done? Would you have waited until AFTER the unknown alien ship started shooting to open fire?
Yes, since this is a first contact situation.

Horseradish. Modern militaries definitely don't have ROEs that say 'don't shoot unless fired upon'. Oh wait.

Is it even possible to resign as Satai?
Why not? She later gives up membership of the Grey Council to become the head of the Rangers after all, so they've got an "only way out is in a coffin" rule.
Actually I think she was kicked out of the Grey Council when she refused to quit playing ambassador to Babylon 5.

She was.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2008-01-26 03:04pm

Gustav32Vasa wrote:The EA started the war by shooting first.

Wrong, the Minbari started the war by attacking their base and start slaughtering every EA ship they could find. The EA was defending themselves against an apparant attack. The situation between the Sharlin and the EA ship was definitely the Minbari's fault.

Yes, since this is a first contact situation.

Let me make you an analogy. You see a large furry four legged animal stalking straight at you. It's baring it's teeth and, oh yeah, and acting unfriendly. You've never seen it before, but you know that there is exactly one creature in nature that bares their teeth to show they are friendly and every single other one bares them as a sign of aggression. In fact, you just got done dealing with an animal that most definitely bared its teeth against you, which you managed to fight off. You've got a means to defend yourself. Do you wait to see if that it another singular exception to the rule and it's really smiling at you or do you not give it a chance to bite?

The universe is a dangerous place in Babylon 5 and by all appearances, they were under attack by an unknown alien hostile. In fact, they had gotten a warning from someone with experience with them that the Minbari weren't friendly (Londo told them straight up to leave the Minbari alone and to "not wake the dragon"). Shooting first and not waiting for them to shoot and kill them is entirely reasonable.

Actually I think she was kicked out of the Grey Council when she refused to quit playing ambassador to Babylon 5.

Yes, she quit the Council because she wouldn't give up ambassadorship when she was given those options.

She broke the council because they refused to do anything about the Shadow situation.

She did it to save Sheridan's hash when the Clark was going to stomp Babylon 5, which was admittedly related to the Shadow situation.

Regarding the open gunports: Did you know that dogs consider showing ones teeth a agressive move.

Yes, I do. Human beings are the only people who show their teeth to show pleasure, and even that is nominal, since we also do it for the same reason every other animal in nature does. It's an naturalist analogy to describe just how stupid the Minbari were being.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2008-01-26 06:16pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Gustav32Vasa wrote:The EA started the war by shooting first.
Wrong, the Minbari started the war by attacking their base and start slaughtering every EA ship they could find. The EA was defending themselves against an apparant attack. The situation between the Sharlin and the EA ship was definitely the Minbari's fault.

Which changes the fact that it was the EA fleet that opened fire how, exactly?

Yes, since this is a first contact situation.
Let me make you an analogy. You see a large furry four legged animal stalking straight at you. It's baring it's teeth and, oh yeah, and acting unfriendly. You've never seen it before, but you know that there is exactly one creature in nature that bares their teeth to show they are friendly and every single other one bares them as a sign of aggression.

Except that you don't know that, this being a first contact situation. You have no idea what baring their teeth means for that creature. As per your analogy you DO know there's at least one creature that bares its teeth to show it's friendly. So the PRUDENT approach, as long as the creature makes no unmistakeably agressive moves, is try to communicate with it.

In fact, you just got done dealing with an animal that most definitely bared its teeth against you, which you managed to fight off.

Which animal would that be? If you're referring to the Dilgar war, if memory serves while Earth was one of the primary involved parties the Dilgar attack was NOT directed against the EA. Mind you, that's from memory.

You've got a means to defend yourself. Do you wait to see if that it another singular exception to the rule and it's really smiling at you or do you not give it a chance to bite?

Given that you are NOT dealing with an animal, KNOW FOR A FACT thanks to your anology that there is at least one animal that will bare their teeth to show they're friendly, and the opposite number isn't doing anything overtly agressive, NO.
You do NOT shoot a dog for just baring its teeth at you.
It was a first contact situation. They didn't know dick about the Minbari. The open gunports might have been anything from a 'we're watching you' gesture to tell the earthers better not to try anything through 'this is our territory. This far and no further'-you know, like animals which get agressive when you get close to their turf but don't actually attack when you back off-to the admittedly rather stupid 'we respect you as warriors' gig it actually was.
In a first contact situation you do NOT assume hostile intent unless the enemy opens fire. Again, plenty of modern militaries have ROEs along those lines. 'Don't fire unless fired upon'.

The universe is a dangerous place in Babylon 5 and by all appearances, they were under attack by an unknown alien hostile.

No they were not. Nobody fired a shot at them.

In fact, they had gotten a warning from someone with experience with them that the Minbari weren't friendly (Londo told them straight up to leave the Minbari alone and to "not wake the dragon"). Shooting first and not waiting for them to shoot and kill them is entirely reasonable.

It is most certainly not.

Regarding the open gunports: Did you know that dogs consider showing ones teeth a agressive move.
Yes, I do. Human beings are the only people who show their teeth to show pleasure,
In the real world. In the B5 universe at least for the humanoid species that seems to be universal.
and even that is nominal, since we also do it for the same reason every other animal in nature does. It's an naturalist analogy to describe just how stupid the Minbari were being.

It's stupid if you analyze it logically. How many traditions that are stupid if you analyze them logically from the real world would you like?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2008-01-27 12:12am

Batman wrote:Which changes the fact that it was the EA fleet that opened fire how, exactly?

Because you are neglecting an important facet of this. The EA ships didn't think they were about to be attacked, they thought they were already under attack. Or did you miss the part about the Minbari frying their jump drives and half their electrical system?

Except that you don't know that, this being a first contact situation. You have no idea what baring their teeth means for that creature. As per your analogy you DO know there's at least one creature that bares its teeth to show it's friendly. So the PRUDENT approach, as long as the creature makes no unmistakeably agressive moves, is try to communicate with it.

Analogies are, of course, suspect, but you are missing the point. The point is that if you no nothing else about an unknown, if the unknown is doing something that is 99.999% of the time an act of aggression, then it is probably hostile.

Now look at it from the perspective of the Prometheus. They are out beyond support and they encounter an alien ship of a species they've never talked to before but were warned right from the starting gate not to even go looking for by someone who has experience with them. The first thing this alien ship does is blasts them with a SOMETHING that has knocked their systems to hell and is preventing them from running away and has come about and is beelining right for them, while opening their gun ports.

What the fuck conclusion would you come to about the alien ship, Batman? That it was still friendly and not attacking them?

Which animal would that be? If you're referring to the Dilgar war, if memory serves while Earth was one of the primary involved parties the Dilgar attack was NOT directed against the EA. Mind you, that's from memory.

I am talking about the Dilgar War and it very much qualifies as a fight the EA had just gotten out of. Hell, the EA commanders hadn't stopped patting themselves on the back yet when the incident with the Prometheus happened.

Given that you are NOT dealing with an animal, KNOW FOR A FACT thanks to your anology that there is at least one animal that will bare their teeth to show they're friendly, and the opposite number isn't doing anything overtly agressive, NO.
You do NOT shoot a dog for just baring its teeth at you.

Way to miss the point. See above, when I responded to this the first time.

It was a first contact situation. They didn't know dick about the Minbari. The open gunports might have been anything from a 'we're watching you' gesture to tell the earthers better not to try anything through 'this is our territory. This far and no further'-you know, like animals which get agressive when you get close to their turf but don't actually attack when you back off-to the admittedly rather stupid 'we respect you as warriors' gig it actually was.
In a first contact situation you do NOT assume hostile intent unless the enemy opens fire. Again, plenty of modern militaries have ROEs along those lines. 'Don't fire unless fired upon'.

Except for the fact that they DID know some things about the Minbari (that they were really inclusive and dangerous, as per Londo's descriptions of them) and that from their perspective, the Minbari had already begun. If you were in their shoes, would you interpret the Minbari's actions as anything BUT an attack? Be honest now.

No they were not. Nobody fired a shot at them.

What would you call frying their ships systems and capacity to run with some sort of beam, if you didn't have an outside perspective on what had actually transpired?

It is most certainly not.

Bullshit. The humans were completely justified in opening fire. What would you have done if you couldn't communicate and you couldn't run away and by all appearances were about to be shot at?

It's stupid if you analyze it logically. How many traditions that are stupid if you analyze them logically from the real world would you like?

Analyzing them logically is the only way you can. The Minbari were incredibly stupid and at fault in that situation, the the worst of the blood is on Delenn's hands, given she didn't even wait for Dukhat's body to cool before deciding to hunt down and slaughter humans.

I can almost see this dialogue between two Minbari:

Minbari 1: "...and then the aliens started shooting at us!"
Minbari 2: "No! Didn't you approach them with your gunports open and with your sensors going full blast to show them that you were approaching them open handed as a gesture of respect?"
Minbari: 1 "We did! And they totally attacked us unprovoked!"
Minbari 2: "Why does that keep happening to us?! Every time we approach an unknown alien race by flying straight at them with our guns out and not messaging ahead, they start shooting!"
Minbari 2: "I tell you, everyone in the universe except us are savages. Welp, best get to massacring them for being unprovoked aggressors."

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2008-01-27 11:04am

The Minbari were incredibly stupid and at fault in that situation, the the worst of the blood is on Delenn's hands, given she didn't even wait for Dukhat's body to cool before deciding to hunt down and slaughter humans.

No, she didn't wait for Dukhat's body to cool before emotionally giving the order to destroy a single military base. She used bad judgment due to extreme emotional duress and lack of knowledge about the situation, and hours later (ref. episode "Atonement") admitted that she made a mistake, and was angrily rebuffed by another Grey Council guy who was already prattling on about "our rage can only exhaust itself in blood."

You have made a good case for any number of war crimes being committed by individual Minbari units, but there is still not a single one on record for Delenn herself. Your fixation on her confuses me.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2008-01-27 08:17pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Batman wrote:Which changes the fact that it was the EA fleet that opened fire how, exactly?
Because you are neglecting an important facet of this. The EA ships didn't think they were about to be attacked, they thought they were already under attack. Or did you miss the part about the Minbari frying their jump drives and half their electrical system?

I don't remember the Minbari scanners affecting anything other than the jump drives and it's YOU who is neglecting an important point. That being the Minbari not shooting at the EA forces. I don't care what the EA thought was happening, what WAS happening was that they weren't under attack. Even if disabling their jump drive had been intentional, which the EA force had no way of knowing, is not automatically an aggressive move.

Except that you don't know that, this being a first contact situation. You have no idea what baring their teeth means for that creature. As per your analogy you DO know there's at least one creature that bares its teeth to show it's friendly. So the PRUDENT approach, as long as the creature makes no unmistakeably agressive moves, is try to communicate with it.
Analogies are, of course, suspect, but you are missing the point. The point is that if you no nothing else about an unknown, if the unknown is doing something that is 99.999% of the time an act of aggression, then it is probably hostile.

It's a pity then that the EA HADN'T met 50,000 different sentient alien species by then. Or ever. The Minbari opened their gunports AND THEN DID NOT FIRE. While that's certainly reason to be cautious in a first contact situation where you haven't the foggiest about how your opposite's mind works it is NOT reason to open fire. Again, real world militaries have 'don't fire unless fired upon' rules and that's dealing with nations they've know all about for DECADES.

Now look at it from the perspective of the Prometheus. They are out beyond support and they encounter an alien ship of a species they've never talked to before but were warned right from the starting gate not to even go looking for by someone who has experience with them. The first thing this alien ship does is blasts them with a SOMETHING that has knocked their systems to hell and is preventing them from running away and has come about and is beelining right for them, while opening their gun ports.
What the fuck conclusion would you come to about the alien ship, Batman? That it was still friendly and not attacking them?

I'd come to the conclusion that it had opened its gunports, was beelining for me (something I incidentally can't recall from neither the episode nor the TV movie) and somehow jammed my jump drive.
This is a first contact situation. Unless they do something that MUST be a hostile act you assume it ISN'T. Even if that means having them fire on you first.

Given that you are NOT dealing with an animal, KNOW FOR A FACT thanks to your anology that there is at least one animal that will bare their teeth to show they're friendly, and the opposite number isn't doing anything overtly agressive, NO.
You do NOT shoot a dog for just baring its teeth at you.
Way to miss the point. See above, when I responded to this the first time.

And were just as wrong.

It was a first contact situation. They didn't know dick about the Minbari. The open gunports might have been anything from a 'we're watching you' gesture to tell the earthers better not to try anything through 'this is our territory. This far and no further'-you know, like animals which get agressive when you get close to their turf but don't actually attack when you back off-to the admittedly rather stupid 'we respect you as warriors' gig it actually was.
In a first contact situation you do NOT assume hostile intent unless the enemy opens fire. Again, plenty of modern militaries have ROEs along those lines. 'Don't fire unless fired upon'.
Except for the fact that they DID know some things about the Minbari (that they were really inclusive and dangerous, as per Londo's descriptions of them) and that from their perspective, the Minbari had already begun. If you were in their shoes, would you interpret the Minbari's actions as anything BUT an attack? Be honest now.

Yes. Londo's descriptions are HEARSAY and vague like hell to boot and the Minbari had already begun to do what exactly?
Even REGARDING Londo's descriptions and ignoring the fact that that might not have been intentional the Minbari interfering with their jump drives didn't make it an attack. It might simply have been a warning. Did the EA fleet try to run away in realspace? No? Then how did they know the Minbari were NOT just trying to get across the idea that the EA was to stay the fuck of their lawn?

No they were not. Nobody fired a shot at them.
What would you call frying their ships systems and capacity to run with some sort of beam, if you didn't have an outside perspective on what had actually transpired?

Their capacity to run had been reduced, not fried. They still could have run in realspace. And the incapacitation to run was followed up by none of the enemies bothering to fire on them at all.

It is most certainly not.
Bullshit. The humans were completely justified in opening fire.
What would you have done if you couldn't communicate and you couldn't run away and by all appearances were about to be shot at?

Let's see-I COULD still run away, if not quite as fast, I didn't even TRY to run away within the means left to me, there's NO INDICATION I'm actually going to be shot at, none of my ships or crew have come to any harm nor is there any indication they inevitably will will be[/i...

It's stupid if you analyze it logically. How many traditions that are stupid if you analyze them logically from the real world would you like?
Analyzing them logically is the only way you can. The Minbari were incredibly stupid

Agreed.

and at fault in that situation,

Wrong. Both the Minbari and the EA force share the guilt for that situation.

the the worst of the blood is on Delenn's hands, given she didn't even wait for Dukhat's body to cool before deciding to hunt down and slaughter humans.

Yeah. It's not like anybody mentioned it was a very emotional reaction she regretted later on and tried to rectify.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2008-01-27 09:35pm

I'd imagine in an actual trial that the evidence presented for the defense would mention that, in addition to above, the simple fact that the CO of the ship in question disobeyed his orders made him guilty of helping to start the incident in question. If you want to blame the Minbari for stupidity of culture, you should at least be willing to accept the stupidity of a man more concerned with his personal glory than with his operational orders.

Yes, the EA captain could have turned tail and ran. Hyperions and Novas had weapons aft, so if they needed defensive cover fire, they could have brought it to bear should the Minbari prove to be hostile. If you want your analogy to follow, the act of backing off from an animal barring its teeth can actually calm the animal down if you demonstrate that you don't intend to be a threat. An EA captain thinking along the terms you're thinking of could have tried that tactic before simply opening fire.

I'm not saying the EA captain shouldn't have had his finger on the trigger and his weapons hot. But as has been said, this was a first contact situation with literally an alien species. Alien to Earth. Which means their traditions, customs, first contact protocols, whatever are ALIEN. And a first contact team (which wasn't ordered to in any way get as close to the Minbari as he did) should be sensitive to that fact.

The fact that the leadership of the EA ignored warnings (which were damned vague, and "if you do not bother them, they will not bother you" doesn't translate to "they're hostile as hell if you're caught") from a government who had had dealings with the Minbari AND assigned a well known "loose cannon" to a mission of first contact speaks volumes for the blame on the EA side.