Dune questions

[Bounty]

I saw the '84 Dune movie recently and it's left me with a few questions. I never read the actual book, so maybe some of this stuff is covered there.

- The Fremen. I can understand why Idaho was giddy about there being loads of Fremen, since they'd react well to the Atreides' morals and having a group of fanatical locals on your side is always handy security-wise. But how can they possibly mean anything on a galactic scale? At the end of the movie it's implied that the Guild backs Paul and his Fremen army because they control the spice, but surely they could just as easily have backed a full Imperial assault (or even a Landsraad coalition) to wipe out the Fremen and secure the spice supply once and for all? The Fremen don't seem to have Shield tech or air power; what makes them so dangerous that both the Guild and the Emperor let them waltz over them?

- What did Gurney do between the Harkonnen attack and the smuggler raid? He just shows up again with no explanation - did the Harkonnen let him go? Did he run off when he realised Arrakeen was going to fall no matter what?

- What's with all the dogs everywhere? There's packs being walked in the throne room, there's dogs on Calladan, Gurney carries a dog into battle - is that just windowdressing or did they have some sort of symbolism in the book?

- What's the point of a stillsuit when it doesn't catch perspiration from the head, and how come everyone can run around the desert in what is essentially a big piece of thermal underwear without dying from hyperthermia?

- When Paul attacks the Imperial palace-ship thing and the generals get on their golden merry-go-round (what the fuck was that thing, anyway?), is there any particular reason why they don't shoot the unprotected Fremen standing on top of the worm, or does everyone in Dune-verse suffer from Stormtrooper syndrome?

[Bedlam]

I saw the '84 Dune movie recently and it's left me with a few questions. I never read the actual book, so maybe some of this stuff is covered there.

- The Fremen. I can understand why Idaho was giddy about there being loads of Fremen, since they'd react well to the Atreides' morals and having a group of fanatical locals on your side is always handy security-wise. But how can they possibly mean anything on a galactic scale? At the end of the movie it's implied that the Guild backs Paul and his Fremen army because they control the spice, but surely they could just as easily have backed a full Imperial assault (or even a Landsraad coalition) to wipe out the Fremen and secure the spice supply once and for all? The Fremen don't seem to have Shield tech or air power; what makes them so dangerous that both the Guild and the Emperor let them waltz over them?

I cant remember if its mentioned in the film but in the book the freeman have set up a sort of water bomb that would cause a chain reaction and wreck dune's ecology destroying all spice. This could be set off at a moments notice at any sign of an assult so basically the guild had to agree or be destroyed due to lack of spice.

- What did Gurney do between the Harkonnen attack and the smuggler raid? He just shows up again with no explanation - did the Harkonnen let him go? Did he run off when he realised Arrakeen was going to fall no matter what?

Yep Gurney and a small group of atridies troops escaped Arrakeen and met up with a group of smugglers and joined them as they didn't have anything else to do.

- What's with all the dogs everywhere? There's packs being walked in the throne room, there's dogs on Calladan, Gurney carries a dog into battle - is that just windowdressing or did they have some sort of symbolism in the book?

I dont remember any dogs in the books so I guess they were just windowdressing.

- What's the point of a stillsuit when it doesn't catch perspiration from the head, and how come everyone can run around the desert in what is essentially a big piece of thermal underwear without dying from hyperthermia?

In the book the stillsuits have hoods and nose plugs that cover almost the entire face to capture as much water as possible, also Fremen don't tend to talk much outside of Seitch's comunicating via hand signals to again reduce water loss. The sillsuits are also suposed to act as heat exchangers using the reclaimed water in some way so that they also have a cooling function.

- When Paul attacks the Imperial palace-ship thing and the generals get on their golden merry-go-round (what the fuck was that thing, anyway?), is there any particular reason why they don't shoot the unprotected Fremen standing on top of the worm, or does everyone in Dune-verse suffer from Stormtrooper syndrome?

[Setzer]

As for them not shooting the Fremen on Sandworms, even if you kill the Fremen, you still have sandworms to deal with, and even one can tear your ship a new one.

[Bounty]

Thanks for the answers so far.

As for them not shooting the Fremen on Sandworms, even if you kill the Fremen, you still have sandworms to deal with, and even one can tear your ship a new one.

But they're... worms. Stupid worms that can be lured away with thumpers, worms that can get their hide breached by metal hooks. Granted, they can chew a Harvester to pieces, but surely some explosives can kill them off?

[Setzer]

Doctor Kynes, the scientist whose job revolves around the study of Arrakis, said that no explosive except for atomics could kill a worm outright. You might stun it with high explosives, but you'd have to individually detonate each ring segment. Nuclear weapons can kill them, but they were banned by convention. Paul got away with using them to destroy a mountain range that blocked his troops, but anyone who used them against humans would be ostracized and probably destroyed by all the other houses. In such close quarters, there's no guarantee you'd only get the worms.

[Bedlam]

Thanks for the answers so far.

But they're... worms. Stupid worms that can be lured away with thumpers, worms that can get their hide breached by metal hooks. Granted, they can chew a Harvester to pieces, but surely some explosives can kill them off?

The hooks don't exactly breach the worms hides. The skin of the worms are made up of overlapping plates fixed at one end, the hooks pull open the free side of the plate and stops the worms burrowing as sand would get under the plate and irritate them. Pesumably an explosion going off in the right direction could push a plate back and fire shrapnal under the plate into the worm itself but it would probably have to go off in just the right place to do it.

[Bounty]

So... biowank?

Nuclear weapons can kill them, but they were banned by convention.

So the atomics that breached the Shield Wall, where did they come from? I missed a bit in the middle of the film when the broadcast crapped out, so maybe they mentioned it there, but where does Paul get a banned WMD when he can't even get off the planet?

As an aside, was it explained in the books what happened to Caladan after Leto died?

[Setzer]

So... biowank?

Nuclear weapons can kill them, but they were banned by convention.

So the atomics that breached the Shield Wall, where did they come from? I missed a bit in the middle of the film when the broadcast crapped out, so maybe they mentioned it there, but where does Paul get a banned WMD when he can't even get off the planet?

As an aside, was it explained in the books what happened to Caladan after Leto died?

The atomics were the legal property of House Atreides. They brought them there when they took control of Arrakis. Duncan Idaho, I think it was, managed to spirit them away to safety among the Fremen once the Harkonnens attacked.
Every house has some atomic weapons. It's not illegal to own them, it's just illegal to use them against humans. It's a balance of power thing.

And I don't think the movie mentions them.

As for Caladan, I'm not sure. Check Wikipedia. It's reliable enough for fiction.

[FA Xerrik]

In the novel it's explained that each of the Families has a private stock of nuclear weapons, which are apparently of extremely high value to their owners. They are among the first items which are considered for evacuation, as I recall, to safeguard them against capture or destruction, when Paul contemplates simply leaving Arrakis outright.

At least in the first novel, Caladan goes unmentioned after the Atreides leave for Arrakis.

[Typhonis 1]

Thing is , and it isn`t mentioned in the movie. Paul had a way to totally DEATROY spice production not only in the now but in the future as well.

No spice is an incredibly bad thing in Dune since the people were so dependent on it from Guild Navigators to the heads of houses. They invade and the spice dies.

As for running roughshod over the Fremen. Fremen were in an enviroment that was worse than the planet the Imperial Sadukar were drawn from and were now getting the combat training Paul had. Shields are useless , for the most part, in he deep desert where the Fremen live so fighting that way would be problematic...also an active shields draws sandworms like crazy.

[Ghost Rider]

- The Fremen. I can understand why Idaho was giddy about there being loads of Fremen, since they'd react well to the Atreides' morals and having a group of fanatical locals on your side is always handy security-wise. But how can they possibly mean anything on a galactic scale? At the end of the movie it's implied that the Guild backs Paul and his Fremen army because they control the spice, but surely they could just as easily have backed a full Imperial assault (or even a Landsraad coalition) to wipe out the Fremen and secure the spice supply once and for all? The Fremen don't seem to have Shield tech or air power; what makes them so dangerous that both the Guild and the Emperor let them waltz over them?

A couple points the movie never touched upon.

1. Leto was not just a Duke but a man in command of an army nearly as good as the Sardukar, just not as large. They used the Weirding devices to sorta convey this message.

2. Leto was an immensely popular duke. His family and him by extension should ever come with an army large enough to challenge the Emperor, the other great houses would back him versus Shaddam IV.

So to your first points.

On the galactic scale, the Fremen apparently were either in the numbers or greater then the Sardukar with also the bonus of being as good/better then them. Dune's armies are not large.

The Guild backs Paul because he can destroy ALL of Melange, because he understands something no one thought of. Literally because of this, the Guild would destroy anyone's ability for transport and suck Paul's cock at the same time. The movie does not even begin to go into how much the Duneverse NEEDS melange. It's a universal drug that is important to anyone who has power.

Why no armies going to Dune and rape them? Because that would disrupt or possibly harm spice production, and the Guild would strand you in that part of the universe as others rape your territory. The Guild are who are truly in control until Paul came along and told them they either obey him or he destroys melange and fucks the universe without lube.

Shields rarely work on Arrakis because of dust problems and thus you are reduced to being vulnerable. Another point, the Fremen are armed with modern weapons, just no shields. So another point the movie barely touches upon. They are not ignorant sand rats.

- What did Gurney do between the Harkonnen attack and the smuggler raid? He just shows up again with no explanation - did the Harkonnen let him go? Did he run off when he realised Arrakeen was going to fall no matter what?

His small bit was to be expanded, but never did. What happened is he joined smugglers because he thought all of House Atredies were killed.

- What's with all the dogs everywhere? There's packs being walked in the throne room, there's dogs on Calladan, Gurney carries a dog into battle - is that just windowdressing or did they have some sort of symbolism in the book?

Window Dressing.

- What's the point of a stillsuit when it doesn't catch perspiration from the head, and how come everyone can run around the desert in what is essentially a big piece of thermal underwear without dying from hyperthermia?

Another point the film never covered. The stillsuit is meant to be a full body suit. Only because of Hollywood, you get that outfit.

- When Paul attacks the Imperial palace-ship thing and the generals get on their golden merry-go-round (what the fuck was that thing, anyway?), is there any particular reason why they don't shoot the unprotected Fremen standing on top of the worm, or does everyone in Dune-verse suffer from Stormtrooper syndrome?

Bad shots have plagued movies for far earlier then SW.

[Uraniun235]

Shields rarely work on Arrakis because of dust problems and thus you are reduced to being vulnerable. Another point, the Fremen are armed with modern weapons, just no shields. So another point the movie barely touches upon. They are not ignorant sand rats.

If I remember right, shields also attract sandworms even quicker than steady vibrations.

[Gullible Jones]

Re stillsuits: that was Frank Herbert not understanding how perspiration works.

[JediToren]

The Fremen don't seem to have Shield tech or air power;

The Fremen did have air cover. They ambush and kill any Harkonnen or smugglers that come into the deep desert, and they keep the ornithopters for themselves, so they end up with quite a few, and those are used in the final battle.

what makes them so dangerous that both the Guild and the Emperor let them waltz over them?

The Fremen were also a vastly superior force to the Sardaukar. The book explains that under Shadam, the Sardaukar have declined. As noted by others, the Fremen lived in incredibly harsh conditions, making them much hardier folk.
At one point in the book, a group of Sardaukar kidnaps Paul's sister Alia. She is staying with a bunch of Fremen women and children, who slaughter the majority of the Sardaukar force. They barely escape with their lives (and Alia), I believe they use their engines to fry the Fremen during their escape.
Of course, Paul and Jessica trained the Fedaykin in the Weirding Way (advanced martial arts) making them even more powerful.

is there any particular reason why they don't shoot the unprotected Fremen standing on top of the worm, or does everyone in Dune-verse suffer from Stormtrooper syndrome?

Bear in mind that the Fremen were coming in under the cover of a "great grandmother of a storm" making it difficult for their enemies to just pick them off. And they weren't exactly sitting ducks, either. They had guns and could shoot back.

[Axiomatic]

Regarding Hollywood - Herbert does mention that there is an alternative stillsuit design that leaves the face uncovered, but it's basically considered useless by actual Fremen.

[Bounty]

How does the Giedi Prime from the movie stack up against the book? The scene where Harkonnen unplugs the boy's heart just screamed "Lynch", was that something he added?

[Mlenk]

Seriously, you need to read the book, which is considered by many to be one of the greatest sci-fi books ever written. Neither the movie or the Sci-Fi Channel miniseries do the book much justice in my opinion.

[The Grim Squeaker]

How does the Giedi Prime from the movie stack up against the book? The scene where Harkonnen unplugs the boy's heart just screamed "Lynch", was that something he added?

That specific heart-plug scene? Yes. The "Young boys to sodomize, often drugged and with chemicals"? Also in the book.
The Baron Vladimir Harkonnen... Is not a pleasant individual

[Gullible Jones]

Heart-plugs in the book were implants for filtering poisons from the bloodstream, IIRC.

As for Harkonnen, he does indeed enjoy sodomizing young boys. Per the book, he's a manipulative, sadistic, incestual slimebag.

[Gullible Jones]

Ghetto edit: Nope... The heart-plug scene is definitely not in the novel. That was pure Lynch.

[Uraniun235]

Seriously, you need to read the book, which is considered by many to be one of the greatest sci-fi books ever written. Neither the movie or the Sci-Fi Channel miniseries do the book much justice in my opinion.

That's funny, Frank thought that Lynch made a good movie. You try slicing Dune down to a couple of hours and see where you end up.

I don't think that a total transplant of Dune from text to film would really make the best film. There's too much material that wouldn't translate well and it would drag on for too long.

[Lord Woodlouse]

Seriously, you need to read the book, which is considered by many to be one of the greatest sci-fi books ever written. Neither the movie or the Sci-Fi Channel miniseries do the book much justice in my opinion.

That's funny, Frank thought that Lynch made a good movie. You try slicing Dune down to a couple of hours and see where you end up.

I don't think that a total transplant of Dune from text to film would really make the best film. There's too much material that wouldn't translate well and it would drag on for too long.

Frank also preferred the idea of doing it as a miniseries. My preference? A Lynch made miniseries. To me Lynch got the feel and style of it down pretty well, with more time to play with he could probably have taken less liberties with the plot.

[Mlenk]

Seriously, you need to read the book, which is considered by many to be one of the greatest sci-fi books ever written. Neither the movie or the Sci-Fi Channel miniseries do the book much justice in my opinion.

That's funny, Frank thought that Lynch made a good movie. You try slicing Dune down to a couple of hours and see where you end up.

Actually, I do think that Lynch made a good movie considering everything, but a good movie is one thing; the awesomeness of the novel Dune is a totally different thing altogether. To truly get a feel for the Duneverse, one should read the books (or at least the first 3 or 4 anyways).

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Seriously, you need to read the book, which is considered by many to be one of the greatest sci-fi books ever written. Neither the movie or the Sci-Fi Channel miniseries do the book much justice in my opinion.

That's funny, Frank thought that Lynch made a good movie. You try slicing Dune down to a couple of hours and see where you end up.

I don't think that a total transplant of Dune from text to film would really make the best film. There's too much material that wouldn't translate well and it would drag on for too long.

Frank also preferred the idea of doing it as a miniseries. My preference? A Lynch made miniseries. To me Lynch got the feel and style of it down pretty well, with more time to play with he could probably have taken less liberties with the plot.

Personally I think all Lynch really needed was the privilege of having final cut.

Also, Hearts of Space is playing one of their programs from back in 1984, and they just finished Brian Eno's "Prophecy Theme," which is giving me the vibe that maybe Eno should have done the film's whole soundtrack instead of Toto.

[Mayabird]

A couple points the movie never touched upon.

1. Leto was not just a Duke but a man in command of an army nearly as good as the Sardukar, just not as large. They used the Weirding devices to sorta convey this message.

I remember a mention that a small group in Duke Leto's army was a touch better than the Sardukar, with the rest very close to them or just behind. Just that threat was enough for the emperor to want to destroy his house, because the Sardukar were supposed to be unmatched, totally elite, and having even a small army being able to challenge that would destroy the aura they had.

The Guild backs Paul because he can destroy ALL of Melange, because he understands something no one thought of. Literally because of this, the Guild would destroy anyone's ability for transport and suck Paul's cock at the same time. The movie does not even begin to go into how much the Duneverse NEEDS melange. It's a universal drug that is important to anyone who has power.

Why no armies going to Dune and rape them? Because that would disrupt or possibly harm spice production, and the Guild would strand you in that part of the universe as others rape your territory. The Guild are who are truly in control until Paul came along and told them they either obey him or he destroys melange and fucks the universe without lube.

Think of it this way: melange was their universe's oil, only more so. Much more so. Without melange, interstellar travel stops. No trade, no empires, no nothing. High-class people eat it for its life-extension properties, but they become addicted to it - taking it away means that a good chunk of the empire's nobility dies in short order. It's necessary for the Bene Gesserit and others for their mind-expansion abilities. They're just well-trained ordinary people otherwise, and there go all their plots. It only comes from Arrakis and can't be replicated. By controlling the spice, Paul controls the universe.