Tourists held in US orphanage after mother falls ill

[Zac Naloen]

Social workers took them to a municipal orphanage in downtown Manhattan, where they were separated, strip-searched and questioned before being kept under lock and key for the next 30 hours.

The two sisters were made to shower in front of security staff and told to fill out a two-page form with questions including: "Have you ever been the victim of rape?" and "Do you have homicidal tendencies?"

Can anyone explain to me how this shit is legal?

Further, by whatever logic supports what happened, wouldn't stuff like cavity searches also be legal?

The only thing I can imagine is that the staff weren't told where the girls came from and just processed them as if they'd been picked up off the streets.

[Broomstick]

Part of the "what the bloody hell" includes questioning that ANY children are treated like this not just good old English kids.

Be glad no one called INS.

Look, yes, it's horrific - and maybe there was a better place to put these girls than the orphanage - but the reason for the medical exam and search is because most girls entering such institutions are victims are abusive situation and need an examination. No one wants to think about young teens being raped, having STD's, drug problems, etc. but it does happen. It sounds like they went through a standard intake procedure. I'm sorry it sounds like prison, but because some of the children going into these places can be dangerous and/or ill they can't make exceptions. Again, I'm not saying this was the best place for these girls, just that what happened to them is standard procedure. They weren't singled out in any way, they were treated exactly like any other minor in their situation would be treated.

From the quotes from the girls, it sounds like they took the situation better than their mother did. Frankly, their mother strikes me as a bit of flake.

Yes, I was left home alone at 15, but then I wasn't living in New York City, either. The problem was that the state had temporary custody and the easiest way to keep the girls out of trouble was to lock them up. It's different from mom leaving them for a few hours on their own in that their legal guardian was incapacitated and who knew how long that would go on? While the idea of leaving them in the hotel and having a social worker pop in to check on them has an appeal the fact is that no social worker has the time for that - they have caseloads in the thousands.

Did anyone try to contact relatives? Interesting question. Was mom coherent enough to give them contact information?

The truly sad thing is not that these two girls were subjected to such a place for a couple days, it's that thousands of children live long term in such places and with no one to be their advocates they're stuck with it until they become adults. There's a long history of orphans being treated as criminals on both sides of the Atlantic.

[Winston Blake]

Look, yes, it's horrific - and maybe there was a better place to put these girls than the orphanage - but the reason for the medical exam and search is because most girls entering such institutions are victims are abusive situation and need an examination.

I would argue that all girls leaving such institutions are victims of an abusive situation. If they need a physiological examination, they should have a medical professional do it. Not Jimbo the security guy strip-searching them and watching them shower (which I still cannot understand as being legal). If they can't afford a medical professional, then they shouldn't accept new entrants - just like if they ran out of food or beds.

(Of course this argument is the same for other gender combinations)

[Broomstick]

Social workers took them to a municipal orphanage in downtown Manhattan, where they were separated, strip-searched and questioned before being kept under lock and key for the next 30 hours.

The two sisters were made to shower in front of security staff and told to fill out a two-page form with questions including: "Have you ever been the victim of rape?" and "Do you have homicidal tendencies?"

Can anyone explain to me how this shit is legal?

Further, by whatever logic supports what happened, wouldn't stuff like cavity searches also be legal?

- strip searches are legal provided they are conducted by staff of the same gender as the person in question.
- ditto for showering in front of staff. My understanding is that, in addition to looking for weapons both the search and the shower allows staff to look for signs of physical abuse
- why is this shit legal? I haven't a fucking clue, all I know is that if a person objects to this sort of thing they'd better have a good lawyer because we're all supposed to allow this sort of thing for our own good.

[Broomstick]

Look, yes, it's horrific - and maybe there was a better place to put these girls than the orphanage - but the reason for the medical exam and search is because most girls entering such institutions are victims are abusive situation and need an examination.

I would argue that all girls leaving such institutions are victims of an abusive situation. If they need a physiological examination, they should have a medical professional do it. Not Jimbo the security guy strip-searching them and watching them shower (which I still cannot understand as being legal). If they can't afford a medical professional, then they shouldn't accept new entrants - just like if they ran out of food or beds.

(Of course this argument is the same for other gender combinations)

As usual, we don't have the full story.

First of all, it wouldn't be "Jimbo the security guy" strip searching and watching girls shower. This would have to be done by a female staff member.

Second, I have no idea if the staff performing the medical exam had medical training or not. Really, there's no reason to assume they don't. They may not be an MD, but to be honest, it doesn't require an MD to do that sort of exam.

I would really like to know more details here. And again, I don't mean to condone or approve of what occurred, but I suspect this was not as horrific a situation as it was initially portrayed to be.

[ray245]

Some times...I wonder how does the US maintain the image that it is a free and liberal first world country.

[Zac Naloen]

Did anyone try to contact relatives? Interesting question. Was mom coherent enough to give them contact information?

She wouldn't need to be.

Contact details for next of Kin are in the back of the passport.

And if that is blank a simple call to the british embassy would be plenty to get that sort of information in a medical emergency.

[Broomstick]

Contact details for next of Kin are in the back of the passport.

If she was taken to the hospital in her pajamas - which, apparently, was the case - would she necessarily have her passport on her person?

[Spin Echo]

Considering the girls were 13 and 15, didn't any one to think to ask them? It's not like they were 3 and 5.

[Siege]

If she didn't have her passport on her, contact the hotel where you picked up mom and have them figure it out. This is not rocket science. They aren't required to be Sherlock fuckin' Holmes. If the people at the hospital just put in five minutes of effort, this entire situation would've been prevented. You call the British Embassy, the embassy sends someone to pick up the kids, they camp out with the diplomats for a few days, cue happy end.

Instead, the impression I get is "we need to dump these kids somewhere, oh let's just drop them at the orphanage". I would be willing to give the benefit of the doubt, if I could find a way to doubt, but seriously -- whoever goes from "foreign mum with kids" to "orphanage"? Even IF mom is so far out of it and for some unfathomable reason you can't figure out where you picked her up, like Spin Echo said, ASK THE KIDS!

This situation just smacks of incompetence and carelessness. If the kids didn't end up with any trauma, that's great, but that doesn't make the utter failing of the hospital staff any less egregorious.

[Netko]

Some times...I wonder how does the US maintain the image that it is a free and liberal first world country.

Pretty much. Funny thing is, I'm almost certain that if something like this happened in some other country to an American, the local consular staff would be all over it (especially if it happened in one of the "liberal first world countries") making sure that something like that wasn't going on, while at the same time ignoring that they're treating their own inner city children like criminals. And I really can't get away from that - the description of the intake procedure is something out of a PITA prison rather then an orphanage (where you'd expect attempts at relative normalcy and analogy to normal homes, only with a lot more kids and only one surrogate "aunt" per half-dozen kids).

Heck, considering the mentioned procedures, I'd be more inclined to think that the girls would need medical attention (a psychiatrist) to deal with the those procedures rather then anything they suffered before.

[Zac Naloen]

Contact details for next of Kin are in the back of the passport.

If she was taken to the hospital in her pajamas - which, apparently, was the case - would she necessarily have her passport on her person?

If not,

Ask the hotel you picked her up from to recover it?

Ask the kids?

Everyone has a passport in the UK even babies.

This isn't just lazyness it's incompetence.

Foreign National. Kids... need caring for... Lets send them to an inner city hell hole for their own good. Great idea!

[AniThyng]

Some times...I wonder how does the US maintain the image that it is a free and liberal first world country.

Pretty much. Funny thing is, I'm almost certain that if something like this happened in some other country to an American, the local consular staff would be all over it (especially if it happened in one of the "liberal first world countries") making sure that something like that wasn't going on, while at the same time ignoring that they're treating their own inner city children like criminals. And I really can't get away from that - the description of the intake procedure is something out of a PITA prison rather then an orphanage (where you'd expect attempts at relative normalcy and analogy to normal homes, only with a lot more kids and only one surrogate "aunt" per half-dozen kids).

I imagine if this exact same thing happened to two american girls in my country, people will be ranting about "3rd world shithole" orphanages. And it does seem like there are two americas - the inner city certainly doesn't seem very far removed from some 3rd world shitholes from some of the more colourful descriptions of it.

All in all though the girls seemed to handle it all very well, who knows, it might do them some good to have known what it is like to be at the bottom of society. (single mum or not, they sound like they come from a relatively well off background.)

[Broomstick]

Contact details for next of Kin are in the back of the passport.

If she was taken to the hospital in her pajamas - which, apparently, was the case - would she necessarily have her passport on her person?

If not, Ask the hotel you picked her up from to recover it?

If she is in no condition to speak, then they can't get that information from her.

Ask the kids?

If they're minors it is unlikely anyone will seek their input.

Everyone has a passport in the UK even babies.

But almost no one in the US has a passport. Even a lot of foreign nationals have no passport because they're here illegally. I know it sounds completely bizarre to someone in the UK, but "passport" is not something that Americans would think of first or even third. Even if the girls had had their passports, it is unlikely anyone would have looked beyond the name and photograph because they would have no way to know that there is consulate contact info in the back. Most Americans have never even seen a passport because most never travel anywhere where one is needed. Yes, in a cosmopolitan city such as New York the percentage of passport holders/knowledgeable people is higher than out in the boondocks, but not only is it possible that it never even occurred to the social workers to look for a passport, much less look in the back for contact information, I'd venture to say it was even likely that that was the case.

This isn't just lazyness it's incompetence.

No, it's bureaucracy. Those kids were automatically shunted into the same system that deals with all children where a competent guardian can't be located. There's was no special treatment either good or bad in this case.

Foreign National. Kids... need caring for... Lets send them to an inner city hell hole for their own good. Great idea!

The mere fact the kids are speaking with a foreign accent does not make them "foreign nationals" to Americans. The fact they claim to have relatives in England does not make them automatically foreign nationals. A LOT of people in the US are citizens yet speak with a foreign accent.

And by the way - that is NOT the "hell hole" level of juvenile confinement in the US. There is LOTS worse than where those kids wound up. Again, that does not make this OK.

Another interesting question - what color where these girls? If they were white a claim to be English might have had a better reception than if they were of any other ethnicity claiming to be English or UK citizens (Yes, yes, I am well aware that the UK also has a rainbow of people, but I have no idea what sort of dumbfuck social workers were involved here)

[Spin Echo]

Another interesting question - what color where these girls? If they were white a claim to be English might have had a better reception than if they were of any other ethnicity claiming to be English or UK citizens (Yes, yes, I am well aware that the UK also has a rainbow of people, but I have no idea what sort of dumbfuck social workers were involved here)

Very white looking.

[Spin Echo]

Ask the kids?

If they're minors it is unlikely anyone will seek their input.

What a moment. So in the US, if a parent is in hospital and unable to communicate, they won't even bother to ask the kids where their other parents is before putting them in protective services? I've heard of stupidity, but this is pushing the boundries.

[Ghost Rider]

Ask the kids?

If they're minors it is unlikely anyone will seek their input.

What a moment. So in the US, if a parent is in hospital and unable to communicate, they won't even bother to ask the kids where their other parents is before putting them in protective services? I've heard of stupidity, but this is pushing the boundries.

Really I hate repeating what Broom said, but it bears mentioning.

Bureaucracy.

Does it exonerate anything? No. But to go on and on about "How dumb can one get?" is to realize most governments have this thing in place. The Us is not unique in this manner and at best some governments have less of this asinine bullshit showing.

Bureaucracy is a fucking nightmare of useless and outdated methods and clauses. Most of these people likely followed the rules given to them and never thought outside the box of said rules because they are not hired for that and the system enforces not to think outside said box.

[Spin Echo]

Really I hate repeating what Broom said, but it bears mentioning.

Bureaucracy.

Does it exonerate anything? No. But to go on and on about "How dumb can one get?" is to realize most governments have this thing in place. The Us is not unique in this manner and at best some governments have less of this asinine bullshit showing.

Bureaucracy is a fucking nightmare of useless and outdated methods and clauses. Most of these people likely followed the rules given to them and never thought outside the box of said rules because they are not hired for that and the system enforces not to think outside said box.

So what you're saying is, its common practice for any minor that comes in with an incapacitated adult to be placed in an orphanage and the only reason why we're hearing about this is because the girls are British?

[Broomstick]

Ask the kids?

If they're minors it is unlikely anyone will seek their input.

What a moment. So in the US, if a parent is in hospital and unable to communicate, they won't even bother to ask the kids where their other parents is before putting them in protective services? I've heard of stupidity, but this is pushing the boundries.

If the line of questioning went somewhat like this:

Social Worker: "OK, your mom's really sick. Where's your dad?"
Girls: "We don't have a dad." (Remember, mom's single)
Social Worker: "OK, do you have any other relatives in the area?"
Girls: "All our relatives are in the UK"

Then the girls will wind up in state custody. Boom, end of conversation - at that point the social worker will no longer be listening. She'll be making phone calls and filling out paperwork and won't be bothered to look at their passports or call the embassy for them. She (or to be fair, it could be a he) is programmed to deal with minor-children-without-guardian just one way. In fact, she probably doesn't have a choice. Doing anything else than the standard procedure would probably open her up to disciplinary action or even being fired. Unless someone can come down to the hospital in person in a relatively short period of time to pick them up they are going to wind up in state custody. No, you don't have to like it but that's the way it is. Mom is not able to care for them. They can't be left on their own either in the hospital or in the hotel. That's the way America "Think of the children!" treats kids.

Now, a better way for this to turn out is for the girls to have called the UK embassy themselves. I know from past experience you can usually get access to a non-pay phone, get the money for a pay phone for a local call, or even borrow someone else's cellphone if you ask nicely. If the girls had called the embassy then the embassy might have intervened on their behalf. If they had been able to call a relative in the UK who could then intercede on their behalf/act as legal guardian, even from afar, that might have led to a different outcome. But that's water under the bridge.

I can't help but think that part of the problem here is cultural. Sitting here in the US, it seems to me that Europeans tend to trust their government agencies a great deal more, and trust the representatives of same to actually have brains or at least the authority to do something reasonable. In the US government is truly the last resort for anything, you avoid entering the system until the very last minute. That's why US children are typically taught their phone number very early in life, so they can call mom and dad themselves rather than being at the mercy of some other adult who is representing the bureaucracy and whose hands are frequently tied due to laws and regulations.

Also, keep in mind you are dealing with the US healthcare system, which is well known to be broken. I can't wait until this lady gets the bill for her hospital stay - from the US viewpoint she is uninsured. So... single mom, uninsured... sorry, she fits the profile of inner city poverty so why is it surprising her and her children were treated as such? If she doesn't have her passport on her person, or any other form of ID (which is possible, given her being wheeled out of the hotel in her PJ's) then she also fits the profile of inner city poor illegal immigrant.

I don't think I posted here about the crap I had to deal with the last couple of times a loved one was hospitalized, but even with insurance you really do need an able-bodied advocate by your side otherwise you will totally lose control over your destiny, and that of any minor child swept up in the event.

[Zac Naloen]

If they're minors it is unlikely anyone will seek their input.

What a moment. So in the US, if a parent is in hospital and unable to communicate, they won't even bother to ask the kids where their other parents is before putting them in protective services? I've heard of stupidity, but this is pushing the boundries.

Really I hate repeating what Broom said, but it bears mentioning.

Bureaucracy.

Does it exonerate anything? No. But to go on and on about "How dumb can one get?" is to realize most governments have this thing in place. The Us is not unique in this manner and at best some governments have less of this asinine bullshit showing.

Bureaucracy is a fucking nightmare of useless and outdated methods and clauses. Most of these people likely followed the rules given to them and never thought outside the box of said rules because they are not hired for that and the system enforces not to think outside said box.

The suggestion that if the kids were even asked who they were, were they were from etc they would be ignored because they are minors is what really crosses my eyes.

They are minors, but if they are not american (and with British accents and claims of being british) surely the next step on any training manual should be to say... perhaps we should ask the brits if their story checks out?

[Knife]

So what you're saying is, its common practice for any minor that comes in with an incapacitated adult to be placed in an orphanage and the only reason why we're hearing about this is because the girls are British?

Keep in mind it was less than a two day period. You must have bureaucracies, how fast to they move. It's very possible that if the kids had been there say a week, the slow cogs would have moved enough for some dumbshit at CPS to actually collect the information and figure it out. 30 hours
isn't that much time when your dealing with either a bureaucraicy and/or workers in it with huge caseloads.

[Broomstick]

So what you're saying is, its common practice for any minor that comes in with an incapacitated adult to be placed in an orphanage and the only reason why we're hearing about this is because the girls are British?

Basically.... yes.

Back when I worked with drug addicts this shit happened all the damn time. Single parent hauled to hospital, kids wind up in foster care or some other institution. It usually got sorted out, but it would take days to weeks even with relatives in the same city.

[Ghost Rider]

Really I hate repeating what Broom said, but it bears mentioning.

Bureaucracy.

Does it exonerate anything? No. But to go on and on about "How dumb can one get?" is to realize most governments have this thing in place. The Us is not unique in this manner and at best some governments have less of this asinine bullshit showing.

Bureaucracy is a fucking nightmare of useless and outdated methods and clauses. Most of these people likely followed the rules given to them and never thought outside the box of said rules because they are not hired for that and the system enforces not to think outside said box.

So what you're saying is, its common practice for any minor that comes in with an incapacitated adult to be placed in an orphanage and the only reason why we're hearing about this is because the girls are British?

The sad truth is yes. The fact it's a british person reading it from newspaper sources that are reporting about citizens abroad is the reason we are hearing this in any significant light.

This story really has the earmarks of other stories that are only brought to any significant light because of what group it affects. If this was some single mom in the US who wasn't at least middle class, would be page 12 fodder in the metro section in the US paper.

[Broomstick]

The suggestion that if the kids were even asked who they were, were they were from etc they would be ignored because they are minors is what really crosses my eyes.

Basically, the kids can claim what they want, but until solid proof or an adult legally able to act as guardian shows up -- yeah, everything they say will be discounted.

They are minors, but if they are not american (and with British accents and claims of being british) surely the next step on any training manual should be to say... perhaps we should ask the brits if their story checks out?

AS I SAID - the mere fact a person speaks with a foreign accent, in this country, does not automatically mean they are foreign. There are a LOT of people with foreign accents in a city like New York. In Chicago we have schools where the children speak over 50 different languages and most of those kids are US citizens. The social worker will not spend the time to check out the kids' citizenship - in fact, in some places they are forbidden to because of concerns about illegals being deported. Even if they have a relative in the UK they STILL have to do something with the kids until either that relative can get to the US or something can be arranged for someone to act on the legal guardian's behalf. That will take longer than the hospital is permitted to have the children on their property. Therefore, the children will STILL have to go somewhere. The only place for them to go is.... state custody.

[Zac Naloen]

AS I SAID - the mere fact a person speaks with a foreign accent, in this country, does not automatically mean they are foreign. There are a LOT of people with foreign accents in a city like New York. In Chicago we have schools where the children speak over 50 different languages and most of those kids are US citizens. The social worker will not spend the time to check out the kids' citizenship - in fact, in some places they are forbidden to because of concerns about illegals being deported. Even if they have a relative in the UK they STILL have to do something with the kids until either that relative can get to the US or something can be arranged for someone to act on the legal guardian's behalf. That will take longer than the hospital is permitted to have the children on their property. Therefore, the children will STILL have to go somewhere. The only place for them to go is.... state custody.

It's the same here... not everyone speaks with the same english accent either.


It should be rule number 1 that if someone tells you a story you CONFIRM that story before doing anything else. The fact that this seems to be the LAST thing they do makes me wonder if anyone has actually thought these rules through since the invention of the telephone...

Oh and she won't have to worry about paying anything, she had travel insurance as it says in the article.