Is Clinton Dirty Tricks proving Obama not ready?

[Stravo]

One of the biggest criticisms of Obama as president that he can't really address is that he's not ready for Prime Time. He claims he's an agent for change and has all these nebulous feel good speeches and policies but when it comes to actual experience in areas like foreign policy and such he seems to be sorely lacking when it comes to experience.

Some people scoff "George Bush had no foreign policy experience" of course, that's true but look at us now. Do we want a repeat of an agent for change with no experience suddenly given the reigns to power especially when one considers that unlike Bush he doesn't have friends of his daddy to act like a brain trust to help him in the decision making process?

More to the point - when we see how easily Clinton seems to be man handling Obama in this campaign so far. Whether you are an Obama supporter or not you cannot deny that the Clinton dirty tricks team has successfully begun painting him as "the black candidate" instead of "a candidate who is also black" The lopsided racially driven voting results in South Carolina being the latest sign that this is happening along with Bill's latest "Jessie Jackson also won South Carolina both times he tried to run" shtick you know goddamn well what Bill was dredging up with that comparison -- he's the black man's candidate white people. Vote for us, we're the safe white trash choice.

Disgust at the Clintonian Dirty tricks as usual routine aside isn't the positive gains made in the face of Obama's seeming uncertainty on how to handle this show that the criticism about his inexperience ring true? Imagine Obama trying to handle the rough and tumble world of international politics, dealing with Iran, Pakistan, Cuba, North Korea, International Terrorism, etc. when he can't even handle the Clintons.

OR

Is this a sad statement on race in America that the Clinton Dirty Tricks squad can still pull something like this in the 21st century.

On an additional note is anyone else amused by the deepening unease in the party with the Clinton tactics as it exposing an ever widening and potentially disruptive racial divide in the party? There's a growing number of high level democrats coming out an essentially asking the Clintons to cut it out. They realize this could get real ugly real fast. They're fools if they think the "win at all costs" mentality of the Clintons even gives a shit about that.

[SirNitram]

A quick look at exit polling and prior polling in South Carolina actually show an interesting thing: All the Clinton dirty tricks helped Obama, because people are sick of this Republican-style mudslinging. No idea if that'll hold.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What is Clinton's experience? What makes her so well-educated and informed? I have yet to hear any proof to this trope, just that its true.

[Surlethe]

Some people scoff "George Bush had no foreign policy experience" of course, that's true but look at us now. Do we want a repeat of an agent for change with no experience suddenly given the reigns to power especially when one considers that unlike Bush he doesn't have friends of his daddy to act like a brain trust to help him in the decision making process?

Given that Bush and Obama are at opposite ends of the US political spectrum, why would we expect a lack of experience in foreign policy to give the same results in both cases? I would insted expect that lack of experience would in both cases lead to some naivete, which manifests itself differently depending on the candidate's political views. In Bush's case, we have wars and "military keynesianism", corresponding to his neoconservative views; in Obama's case, we would probably have a far less damaging foreign policy which corresponds to his center-right views (in terms of the world political stage).

[Glocksman]

Some people scoff "George Bush had no foreign policy experience" of course, that's true but look at us now. Do we want a repeat of an agent for change with no experience suddenly given the reigns to power especially when one considers that unlike Bush he doesn't have friends of his daddy to act like a brain trust to help him in the decision making process?

Bill Clinton had zero experience in foreign policy when he ran in 1992,
Jimmy Carter had zero experience in foreign policy when he ran in 1976.
Ronald Reagan had zero experience in foreign policy when he ran in 1980.

In fact, the only three presidents in the last 60 years who had extensive foreign policy chops before they were elected President were Dwight Eisenhower, George Bush Sr., and Richard Nixon.


As long as Obama himself is aware of his lack of experience and surrounds himself with capable people, I don't have a problem with it.

Now if he goes around and hires people that are the left's version of the ideologically blinded neocons we currently have, then I'll start worrying.

[Stravo]

What is Clinton's experience? What makes her so well-educated and informed? I have yet to hear any proof to this trope, just that its true.

Good point, perhaps a sign that she is controlling the direction of the rhetoric and seizing initiative on these issues. Or it could be the media simply parroting her shit and Obama not reacting to it. I've seen him get nasty with her in some recent debates and part of me is torn. Does Obama tarnish his image as a healer and agent of change by getting in the mud with that demented bitch and sling it with her or does he try to stay above it all?

It's a decision that Kerry went through and I feel, too late, came to the decision to sling it right back at Bush and his cronies. As much as people claim they're sick of the politics of divsion and mud slinging, why is it that in the end those tactics seem to be the winning ones?

When you sling enough shit no matter how untrue it tends to start to stick and people's perceptions change. In my experience watching these election cycles, if you don't start slinging some back you tend to look inept or even worse, weak. I just don't think the idea of staying above it all or the the electorate being sick of the politics of division is really going to work.

Too many elections have been won by the dirty fighters for me to believe for one second the American electorate is really sick of mud slinging. They like to say they are just like to like to say they would vote for the issues and not based on things like race or gender.

[Darth Wong]

What is Clinton's experience? What makes her so well-educated and informed? I have yet to hear any proof to this trope, just that its true.

Good point, perhaps a sign that she is controlling the direction of the rhetoric and seizing initiative on these issues.

What has she said or done to "seize initiative" on the experience issue? As far as I can tell, the media invented this story themselves.

[Pablo Sanchez]

What is Clinton's experience? What makes her so well-educated and informed? I have yet to hear any proof to this trope, just that its true.

She does have a natural advantage in the form of Bill Clinton, who was a highly successful former two-term president and would certainly play a huge role in a putative Hillary presidency. As First Man he would probably play a role something like an unofficial chief of staff and foreign-policy troubleshooter, and he'd be damn good at it. That said, I think it is bullshit to vote for Hillary in the hopes of getting Bill Clinton back in the White House, and whereas Bill is a positive in the primary season he might well be the kiss of death in the general election. There are plenty of credulous idiots who will believe any bad thing said about him.

As I've said before, I think the experience argument is a bunch of bullshit. The actual execution of presidential policy falls to the cabinet anyway, so the more important thing is for a president to be an effective administrator with a well-chosen staff and good ideas (you can see the reverse of this in the GWB administration--bad ideas, no administrative skill, and a terrible staff).

[Haruko]

I wonder, has anyone seen fit to point out that Abraham Lincoln, if memory serves, had only the political experience of being a one-term senator prior to his presidential nomination?

I mean, if yes, then it's not like Obama is making history in the U.S. for lack of experience.

[CmdrWilkens]

I wonder, has anyone seen fit to point out that Abraham Lincoln, if memory serves, had only the political experience of being a one-term senator prior to his presidential nomination?

I mean, if yes, then it's not like Obama is making history in the U.S. for lack of experience.

Not even Senator. Lincoln's entire prior federal experience was as a US representative for a two-year term from 1852-1854, he had arranged a sort of power sharing deal with a few other prominent republicans in the Springfield district whereby then each succesively ran on the party ticket with one candidate serving before Lincoln and one after him. Lincoln would purseu the Illinois senatorial seat in 1856 and 1858, the first time surrendering an early lead of inside party politics but utilizing the position as gracious loser to solidify the party's backing in 1858 when he nearly unseated Douglas and probably only failed to do so because Douglas was backing a measure seen as anti-slavery in Nebraska (The Lecompton Compromise).

So anyway long storry less long Lincoln served 2 undistinguished years in DC. he was basically the Republican nominee because he built the most effective ground organizaiton at the nominating convention (which he manuevered to have in Chicago) and swayed the smaller but highly influential border state delegations which supported him almost exclusively from the first ballot and lent a wave of momentum that sapped delegates from Chase and Bates until he finally had enough to overcome Seward's early lead.

[Big Phil]

I'm going to throw the question back at you to prove: How does the Clinton's lying and race-baiting prove that Obama isn't ready to be President. How does somebody whispering behind Obama's back, flat out lying about him and his policy positions, and insinuating that he's nothing but a smart talking nigger mean Obama isn't qualified to be President?

That says more about everyone else, starting with the Clinton's and working its way out to all Americans, than it does about Obama's qualifications.

[Civil War Man]

The funny thing is, Obama has arguably the most political experience out of the Democrats running. Clinton has 7 years as a Senator (most of the experience she's claiming is actually "Wife of Bill Clinton"). Edwards has 6 years as Senator. Obama only has 3 years as a US Senator, but he has another 7 years as Illinoise State Senator before that. "Experience" has basically been used as code for "Beltway Insider"

[Patrick Degan]

I think rather that the tactic has the whiff of desperation from Team Clinton. This is suddenly a fight and one they never expected to have to engage in. It was almost expected that Hillary would grab the nomination and go on to fulfill history as the first woman president. It was expected that the opposition would fall by the wayside early on and prove easy pickings. Barak Obama has upset that calculation completely and has shown himself to be a very strong and inspiring campaigner with a good message —and he's got the Outsider/Agent for Change meme working for him. Hillary suddenly looks like a tired political hack next to him and he's starting to drain away what should be her natural base of support: ethnics, women, and the young. And Bill is doing himself no credit by participating in this sort of bullshit. Indeed, some analysts have offered the theory that even having Bill campaign for Hillary undermines her argument that she is strong enough and ready to be her own woman in the White House.

Message v. Message is the only chance to beat Obama —a head-on clash of ideas and a demonstration of who has the better chance to actually carry them out. Dirty tricks won't do —or if they do, it will win her the nomination on terms that may well lose her the election.

[Uraniun235]

I'm inclined to agree with you, Patrick. Among other things, I smell bitterness from Hillary - as if she believes she's entitled to be President.

One person I talked to recently thought that Obama should not legitimize Hillary's tactics by addressing her attacks, but I'm inclined to think that such thinking is a replay of Kerry's non-campaign strategy from 2004. I would imagine that people are more willing to believe that Obama is ready for the Presidency when he's willing to trade barbs with the self-anointed Queen of the Democrats (I rather liked his 'I don't know whether I'm campaigning against you or your husband' remark) rather than quietly squeak something about not resorting to mud-slinging.

[brianeyci]

Obama makes people laugh.

"And no, I didn't run for President because of what I said to my third grade teacher"... "I don't know whether I'm campaigning against you or your husband" and so on and so on. He isn't sitting back whining about being attacked. When he says "Hillary embraces the politics of anything goes" he isn't talking about debate which is part and parcel of politics more than Hillary will do anything to get elected, adopt any position.

If Obama is successfully painted as the black candidate it is because some Americans are stupid, not because Obama didn't fight back. What the hell is he supposed to say? "I am not black, I am American" tripe? That's bullshit, and not politically sound either. No, the best answer is to come off with witty, funny remarks to make the Clintons seem like tired old people with no sense of humor and no vision for the future.

[Adrian Laguna]

To echo what Brian is saying, Obama actually is fighting back. It's just that the man is so eloquent, so refined, that he manges to backhand slap the opposition and nobody notices. The best thing is, I think it's working. He manages the best of both worlds, he looks like he's staying above the fray, and he looks strong.

[Adrian Laguna]

Dammit, I forgot the other part of my reply.

Bill Clinton had zero experience in foreign policy when he ran in 1992,
Jimmy Carter had zero experience in foreign policy when he ran in 1976.
Ronald Reagan had zero experience in foreign policy when he ran in 1980.

You're mentioning people whose foreign policy I don't particularly like. If those are the posterboys of "no experience", we have a problem.

In fact, the only three presidents in the last 60 years who had extensive foreign policy chops before they were elected President were Dwight Eisenhower, George Bush Sr., and Richard Nixon.

On the other hand, I only like about half of those.

[CaptainChewbacca]

On the 'dirty campaign' front, Hilary is polling highest in the Florida primary, in which dems aren't allowed to campaign or really compete (why they still have the vote baffles me).

So, as soon as the polls in Florida close she's going to fly down there and stage a victory party to look good for the press. Count on seeing 'Hillary landslide in Florida' on your news in the next 24 hours. Retarded, says I.

[SirNitram]

On the 'dirty campaign' front, Hilary is polling highest in the Florida primary, in which dems aren't allowed to campaign or really compete (why they still have the vote baffles me).

So, as soon as the polls in Florida close she's going to fly down there and stage a victory party to look good for the press. Count on seeing 'Hillary landslide in Florida' on your news in the next 24 hours. Retarded, says I.

She can get the landslide. The delegates were revoked. Of course, now that Michigan and Florida are likely to have enough delegates for her to catch up, she suddenly wants them re-instated.

[CaptainChewbacca]

This is a photo from South Carolina, between two towns...



The best ones are the ones you don't NEED to caption or photoshop.

[RedImperator]

On the 'dirty campaign' front, Hilary is polling highest in the Florida primary, in which dems aren't allowed to campaign or really compete (why they still have the vote baffles me).

So, as soon as the polls in Florida close she's going to fly down there and stage a victory party to look good for the press. Count on seeing 'Hillary landslide in Florida' on your news in the next 24 hours. Retarded, says I.

I doubt you hear anything like that. At worst, it'll be like it was after Michigan, where every time they mentioned her percentage, they added "...in the uncontested Michigan primary." Best case, she just barely edges out "Uncommitted" and the whole thing blows up in her face.

[Lord Pounder]

Like the pic Chewie. Emailed it tcolleague of mine who's moving on from our party to join Clintons campaign staff at the end of the week or so.

[mingo]

I've come to a conclusion. Obama's fate has nothing to do with Hillary. If Barack Obama was a white man, Hillary would already be in the dustbin of history. Obama's fate is purely a matter of how racist are we really. It remains to be seen, but Hillary is just "The other white meat".

[Pablo Sanchez]

She can get the landslide. The delegates were revoked. Of course, now that Michigan and Florida are likely to have enough delegates for her to catch up, she suddenly wants them re-instated.

I'm sort of confused by Hillary's presence on the Michigan ballot and her colossal 21-point lead in Florida. Does she have operatives running quiet campaigns in those states or something? What the DNC ought to do (but won't because the race is too far along) is do as it threatened to do with any candidates who actively campaigned in FL and MI, which is to take all of their delegates away. Even if she isn't doing some underhanded dirty tricks shit in the blacklisted states, she's effectively trying to cheat the system by demanding that the DNC change the rules retroactively.

Honestly, her legal challenge to the extra primary sites in Las Vegas, coupled with this soulless grab for free delegates is just completely rancid. Moreover, the chilling fact that Democratic Primary voters in Michigan only gave her a 15 point margin over "I totally don't even give a shit" ought to scare the piss out of the DNC. You do not want to run a candidate like that in November, because even if she'll probably win, you'll be squandering the rank-and-file's good will and enthusiasm by nominating the candidate they clearly like least. This is an opportunity to pick up new lifelong Democrats, not scare them off!

[SCRawl]

This is a photo from South Carolina, between two towns...

{snip}

Somewhat appropriately, given where the sign is located, Clinton's way leads to the left, while those seeking Prosperity must head to the right.