Borg Transwarp vs Imperial Hyperdrive...

[Robert Walper]

According to canon sources, hyperdrive allows Imperial vessels to cross their galaxy in a matter of weeks, days or even hours for some of the fastest ships.

In reference to ST: VOY "Hope and Fear", Quantum Slipstream was assimilated by the Borg (the whole race that employed was in fact assimilated, which would include the infrastructure and technology to utilize this technology). As seen is later episodes, transwarp is virtually identical in operation and visual characteristics. In the above mentioned Voyager epsiode, QS travelled over fifteen lightyears in under 30 seconds. This is the equivalent of 1800 lightyears per hour, or approximately 15 million C. It would seem to be a given that the Borg have this technology and employ it regularily, examples are numerous. With transwarp technology, the Borg can travel across the Milky Way in a couple of days. This would seem to be almost equivalant to Hyperdrive speed.

The Borg's transwarp hub system allows the Collective the deploy Borg vessels throughout the galaxy within minutes. The Hubs are well hidden within nebulas(one at least anyhow) and possibly located outside of Borg territory, making them extremely difficult to locate and destroy, especially for vessels not equipped with extra sensor packages to detect known traces.

It would seem to me that Imperial hyperdrive wouldn't be an advantage over Borg transwarp systems, especially in light of the fact transwarp can change course during use.

Thoughts, comments?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

1. Hyperspace is at least 20 million C.
2. The slipstream would need 3 months to get Voyager home (stated) This 15 million C must have been some sort of burst speed.
3. Only transwarp hubs are faster then hyperspace.
4. You can change course in hyperspace. As per Dark Empire.

[Robert Walper]

1. Hyperspace is at least 20 million C.

As I just pointed out, QS and Transwarp are at least 15 million C. I didn't give bigger figures, but they do exist. I simply don't have them on hand right now.

2. The slipstream would need 3 months to get Voyager home (stated) This 15 million C must have been some sort of burst speed.

Your information is incorrect. The "3 months" to get Voyager home was stated in a "faked" message by the alien named Arturis. When the Voyager crew tested the QS for the first time, it travelled 15 lightyears in under thirty seconds. Which is the more valid data? A faked message, or a real test?

3. Only transwarp hubs are faster then hyperspace.

I didn't say transwarp (for ships) was actually faster than hyperdrive, I'm trying to point out that the Empire wouldn't have a massive speed advantage over the Borg, and in Borg space they would have a very large disadvantage speed wise.

4. You can change course in hyperspace. As per Dark Empire.

Did it take place before or after the Empire's fall? If the latter, then it shouldn't really be relevent. I'm discussing the Empire vs the Borg, not the current timeline of the Star Wars books...

[Dark Primus]

We don't know the speed of the transwarp that was used in Dark Frontier. Considering they stated Seven of Nine was onboard the Borg sphere and could be anywhere in the Delta Quadrant does say the speed must have been close to hyperspace. Maybe somewhat slower.

[Howedar]

As I just pointed out, QS and Transwarp are at least 15 million C. I didn't give bigger figures, but they do exist. I simply don't have them on hand right now.

Based on what, exactly?

Your information is incorrect. The "3 months" to get Voyager home was stated in a "faked" message by the alien named Arturis. When the Voyager crew tested the QS for the first time, it travelled 15 lightyears in under thirty seconds. Which is the more valid data? A faked message, or a real test?

Why would Arturis lie to the Voyager crew, when real tests would prove him wrong, and thus jepordize his mission? A burst speed is more logical, and fits the facts better.

I didn't say transwarp (for ships) was actually faster than hyperdrive, I'm trying to point out that the Empire wouldn't have a massive speed advantage over the Borg, and in Borg space they would have a very large disadvantage speed wise.

Until the hubs are destroyed, of course.

Did it take place before or after the Empire's fall? If the latter, then it shouldn't really be relevent. I'm discussing the Empire vs the Borg, not the current timeline of the Star Wars books...

The mechanics of hyperdrive don't change over a period of tens of years, I'm afraid. If it exists post-Empire, it exists pre-Empire as well.

[Robert Walper]

As I just pointed out, QS and Transwarp are at least 15 million C. I didn't give bigger figures, but they do exist. I simply don't have them on hand right now.
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Based on what, exactly?

Calculations on how fast a drive system has to be in order to travel over 15 lightyears in under 30 seconds.

Your information is incorrect. The "3 months" to get Voyager home was stated in a "faked" message by the alien named Arturis. When the Voyager crew tested the QS for the first time, it travelled 15 lightyears in under thirty seconds. Which is the more valid data? A faked message, or a real test?
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Why would Arturis lie to the Voyager crew, when real tests would prove him wrong, and thus jepordize his mission?

Arturis wasn't exactly mentally stable. He was going to try and get the Voyager crew assimilated by the Borg and he didn't care that he would be either. He was plainly shown to be partially insane, so a mistake on his on faking a message on the fly isn't exactly on the level in improbability.

A burst speed is more logical, and fits the facts better.

QS has exceeded the speed I mentioned above(Voyager once enhanced it's QS drive tech to far superior speeds, ep ame escapes me). I see no reason why the calculation cannot be taken at face value and accepted as the lower limit of QS speed.

I didn't say transwarp (for ships) was actually faster than hyperdrive, I'm trying to point out that the Empire wouldn't have a massive speed advantage over the Borg, and in Borg space they would have a very large disadvantage speed wise.

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Until the hubs are destroyed, of course.

First off, the Empire would have to find them. Could prove very difficult since they are hidden in nebulas and possibly outside of Borg space. Backtracking a incoming ship's trajectory wouldn't prove feasible since in ST:VOY "Endgame" we plainly see a Borg spehre changing course within the hub system. And in the event the Empire did find them, they'd still have to deal with large numbers of Borg cubes that protect the hub systems. We'll deal with Borg cubes vs ISDs later...

Did it take place before or after the Empire's fall? If the latter, then it shouldn't really be relevent. I'm discussing the Empire vs the Borg, not the current timeline of the Star Wars books...
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The mechanics of hyperdrive don't change over a period of tens of years, I'm afraid. If it exists post-Empire, it exists pre-Empire as well.

I find that somewhat questionable. I've heard and even read about technology improvements in many SW novels. One example off the top of my head is Han Solo needing to upgrade his sensor array in "Han Solo at Star's End" because the Corporate Sector Authority had upgraded their sensor range. The CSA was described as enormously rich, therefore upgrading would have to imply a new technology, not simply getting something better that was already available.

[Mr Bean]

new technology, not simply getting something better that was already available.

Let me refute that with a real world example

How vastly diffrent was is DDR Memory from SDR memeory?

They had longer range, simple scalling, better materials, diffrent materials, a more fine or prehaps larger sensor dish, lots of ways to improve existing tecnology.

Also Bosseks Ship the "Hound's Tooth" can also change directions and thats ESB time era

[Ender]

I find that somewhat questionable. I've heard and even read about technology improvements in many SW novels. One example off the top of my head is Han Solo needing to upgrade his sensor array in "Han Solo at Star's End" because the Corporate Sector Authority had upgraded their sensor range. The CSA was described as enormously rich, therefore upgrading would have to imply a new technology, not simply getting something better that was already available.

I bought my computer with a Pentium 4. However, the FPC on the Athlon 1300 series is better, so I upgraded to that model even though it was available before the P4s.

See my point?

[Eleas]

<snip>

The Borg, themselves, have been shown to take weeks or months to cross the galaxy. To assume they must match the speeds of an out-of-control Federation experimental starship is dubious at best.

[Doomriser]

OMG is the THE Robert Walper from the Hate Mail page?!?

[nightmare]

"Travel between star systems would be impossible were it not for the development of the revolutionary hyperdrive propulsion system. The term hyperdrive refers to the engine and interrelated systems that propel a starship through the alternate dimension of hyperspace. In hyperspace, there is no limit to how fast a starship can travel, and thus interstellar distances can be traversed in mere minutes."

-excerpt from starwars.com. In other words, there are no speed limit for hyperdrive. The fastest speed seen yet is something like 40 million c. Check this site for more info, btw.

Moreover, the Borg wouldn't have conduits in Imperial space and would thus be reduced to the speed we see them travel with when approaching Earth the first time.

[SPOOFE]

One example off the top of my head is Han Solo needing to upgrade his sensor array in "Han Solo at Star's End" because the Corporate Sector Authority had upgraded their sensor range. The CSA was described as enormously rich, therefore upgrading would have to imply a new technology

"Enormously rich" has nothing to do with it. The CSA also had a massive infrastructure to upgrade.

Furthermore, the implication that this denotes an improvement in technology is fallacious. Sometimes, an "enormously rich" body goes with less-than-state-of-the-art material because that's quite suitable for its purposes. Did you know that the United States military uses computer processors that are far less than the 2.5+ ghz of the latest computer chips? That's because they get a specialized technology that suits their projected purposes. They don't NEED Pentium-4's or Athlons in their fighters.

An "upgrade" occurs when the need for a different system is felt, whether it be for maintenance purposes, more rugged performance, enhanced performance, or some sort of business deal ("Hey, buy OUR sensors, we'll give 'em to you cheaper AND they have better range, t'boot!"), not necessarily just because better materials are available.

[Robert Walper]

If I may point out, Han Solo should in fact have the latest technology on his ship. His ship has many, many times been described as having the one of the fastest Hyperdrive systems available.

In the novel, the new sensor package is referred to as a new system that was recently devoloped. I'll look it up when I get a chance.

[NecronLord]

If you shoot a conduit as it opens then all borg vessels inside are destroyed, see Dark Frontier.

OHHH SCARY!!!

[Jim Raynor]

It should also be pointed out that not even the fastest hyperdrives are needed to cross the galaxy within days. Darth Maul's Sith Infiltrator has a crappy class 3 hyperdrive and was able to get from Coruscant to Tatooine within a day.

[Dark Primus]

If you shoot a conduit as it opens then all borg vessels inside are destroyed, see Dark Frontier.

OHHH SCARY!!!

You perhaps notices the conduits used in Dark Frontier and Engame are totally different.

[Mr Bean]

And before we get started one of the problems(Lucky one of the few) with Hypdrive is that it must Detoure around Mass Shadows of Planets/Stars/Black Holes and whatnot

Because of this is one of the Reasons why somonetimes Hypdrive from the Rim to the Core takes less than a day and others from Rim to Core can take a week, Every gravitational thingy in the way the Hyperdrive has to deutore around and the more powerful the hyperdrive the less the Deutour you need to take, Thus while Courscant to Tatitone might be one day this month and Two days the next because of the Fact the Galaxy is moving and spining along with all those various Star systems and orbinting planets

[Vapthorne]

"If I may point out, Han Solo should in fact have the latest technology on his ship. His ship has many, many times been described as having the one of the fastest Hyperdrive systems available. "

How so. Han Solo is a smuggler who couldn't even pay his dept to Jabba the Hutt which couldn't be more than 10,000 (unknown currency but it was enough to buy a starship). That was his asking price in AHN. And while he could purchase some impressive (abiet illegial) technology, but I doubt that he'd have the top of the lie tech.

If you ask me, the Falcon being literally the 'fastest ship' in the galaxy is quiet frankly a brain bug. The stem of that myth came from every instance of Solo bragging, it be like me saying I have the fastest car on Earth. Granted the ship's speed is nothing to scoff at, and I'd boast too, but that's all it.

[Darth Yoshi]

The 10,000 credits being able to by a starships quote came from farmboy Luke, who didn't know the first thing about astronavigation. 10,000 may be enough to buy a ship, but is it top of the line? What model is it? how does it compare to a class .5 hyperdrive? Luke just said a starship, but you don't know what kind. For all we know, it might have been a Firespray-class patrol boat (e.g. Slave-1) with a class 4 hyperdrive. Not enough to outrun ISD Mk-IIs. Also, we don't know how much things cost in the SW galaxy.

[Vapthorne]

Darth Yoshi, yeah, Luke's statement about the 10,00 credits is vague... so?

That doesn't sway the Falcon bug; I mean Han Solo isn't the only one to afford a .5 class hyperdrive and if he show how could make his ship literally the absolute fastest with some engineering why not sell the design to Kaut drives or someone and make a fortune off of the patent?

[paladin]

Doesn't Transwarp require some kind of stabilizing field to provide a ship from being torn apart?

I don't recall Hyperdrive having such a requirement.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Paladin, hyperdrive also requires a stabilizer, in order to sustain the "wormhole" that hyperspace is in. Without it, hyperspace would collapse in on the unfortunate starship, and blast in inot subatomic particles.

And I'm pretty sure all forms of FTL travel require a certain type of stabilizer. To sustain a wormhole, or to simply hold a ship together agianst the raw speed, or whatever type of exotic FTL travel that requires a stabilzer.

[Isolder74]

Furthermore, the implication that this denotes an improvement in technology is fallacious. Sometimes, an "enormously rich" body goes with less-than-state-of-the-art material because that's quite suitable for its purposes. Did you know that the United States military uses computer processors that are far less than the 2.5+ ghz of the latest computer chips? That's because they get a specialized technology that suits their projected purposes. They don't NEED Pentium-4's or Athlons in their fighters.

True, but the military uses the older chips their fighter because the newer chips are to fast. They react too quickly. This keeps a slight twitch of the pilot from becoming a change in course.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Special chips are often behind normal chips in terms of performance. You can compensate for a ultra-fast chip by adding in a software response delay.

But mobile computer chips are both more expensive and generally behind the performance of the best commercial modern chips. Then you add the hardening against shock, EMP required by military chips, and you lose more performance.

[consequences]

You should also keep in mind that the Borg have never been very subtle, and backtracking them to the transwarp hub wouldn't be hard, especially with the Empire's sensor technology.