Chimpy's State of the Union address 2008

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2008-01-28 11:50pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:That's actually what a lot of them did - if wikipedia, not exactly the most reliable of sources, is to believed, then basically from Thomas Jefferson in 1800 to Taft in 1912, the President simply sent over a written report to be read by a legal clerk to Congress.

Getting the US President to do a Question Period would be rather difficult - but what about the Vice President? He/She's basically a lame duck anyways; why not make him fight it out in the House of Representatives? I'll admit, part of this is simply because I'd love to see Cheney in a Question Period; the guy's a major advocate of executive power, so watching him have to respond to attacks from the opposition in the House would please me greatly. Especially if you get the British Parliament-style cheering and jeering.

It really is constitutionally impossible unless the president is somehow responsible to the Congress as the PM is to Parliament; he has to abide by his constitutional conventions because Parliament can depose him if he gets whacky. What would Congress do if Bush failed to show up to a Question Time? Refuse to fund the government?

Post by **Simplicius** » 2008-01-28 11:52pm

If the VP is to go before the representatives as an emissary from the Executive Branch he might as well be the representative of the branch before the whole Congress, since he's already got a (largely ceremonial) seat in the Senate as its president.

Hell, give him the White House Press Secretary's job too, since an administration's mouthpiece should be beholden to it. I think the country's had enough flunkies for the time being.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:DING DING DING. When the U.S. government was founded, they based it on the then UK monarchy; except they wanted to tone down the central government, the elitism, and the king A LOT. But still, the model for the presidency conceptually was that of the king. It just happened that the U.S. has derived slower than its source: the UK now has a meaningless non-partisan monarch and the ministers do everything and are responsible to the legislature.

The US government would look something like that if Woodrow Wilson had gotten his way.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2008-01-28 11:55pm

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2008-01-29 12:53am

-Congress has the power to impeachment the president. Why isn't this considered to remedy the problem?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2008-01-29 12:56am

Because the democrats know that if they impeach him over a military action, then it ties the hands of a future democrat president to respond as needed to future unforseen situations.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2008-01-29 12:59am

Nova Andromeda wrote:-Congress has the power to impeachment the president. Why isn't this considered to remedy the problem?

Because alot of them are conservatives who are full-on for the Iraq war despite the lies and failures.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2008-01-29 01:04am

Darth Wong wrote:I have never understood the State of the Union address. The President stands there like the Pope, behind a podium before an audience of rapt worshippers. He pontificates at length, and the audience periodically rises like automatons to offer their praise. He is never made to answer questions or discuss anything, and most of his comments are either meaningless feelgood tripe or vague promises.

What the fuck is the purpose of this ritual?

Constitutionally, the president must deliver an annual message to Congress regarding the political and material condition of the federal union through the previous year along with his recommendations for legislation for the coming year (as per Article 2.3 quoted earlier). He is not required to actually give this speech before both houses, however —a letter delivered to both the Speaker of the House and President of the Senate would fulfill the requirement. Nor is it necessary for the cabinet or the Supreme Court justices to attend.

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2008-01-29 01:06am

SirNitram wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote:-Congress has the power to impeachment the president. Why isn't this considered to remedy the problem?
Because alot of them are conservatives who are full-on for the Iraq war despite the lies and failures.

-Well if they won't even consider enforcing the law then what solutions do you think are available (if any)?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2008-01-29 01:10am

Nova Andromeda wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote:-Congress has the power to impeachment the president. Why isn't this considered to remedy the problem?
Because alot of them are conservatives who are full-on for the Iraq war despite the lies and failures.
-Well if they won't even consider enforcing the law then what solutions do you think are available (if any)?

Vote the Blue Dogs out.

For Bush? Hope that someone decides to put out a warrant the day he leaves office, forcing him to live in a no-extradition country.

Post by **Simplicius** » 2008-01-29 01:14am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Huh?

If this was to me-

While president of Princeton, Woodrow Wilson wrote a book entitled Constitutional Government in the United States wherein he advocated an interpretation of the Constitution that would re-make the US government into a more or less parliamentary system, with the president acting as the leader of the legislature and the executive duties devolving to the Cabinet and administrative agencies. His argument suffered from a couple of omissions, if I remember right.

He's also the one who popularized the in-person State of the Union, taken - as noted earlier - from the parliamentary system he admired.

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2008-01-29 01:21am

SirNitram wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote:
SirNitram wrote: -Well if they won't even consider enforcing the law then what solutions do you think are available (if any)?
Vote the Blue Dogs out.

For Bush? Hope that someone decides to put out a warrant the day he leaves office, forcing him to live in a no-extradition country.

-How do you propose to vote the Blue Dogs out? In addition, is there some reason to believe the Democrats won't simply continue to cave on everything important? Is there some coalition of liberals with a backbone that I don't know about?
-I wonder if W can simply pardon himself and everyone around him of everything they ever did.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2008-01-29 01:31am

The State of the Union is a useless formality. I would love to see some variant on Question Time where the President is forced to answer publicly to Congress.

Vote the Blue Dogs out.

This isn't really an option. In most of the Blue Dog districts voters would never go for a liberal candidate.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2008-01-29 01:35am

Nova Andromeda wrote:-Congress has the power to impeachment the president. Why isn't this considered to remedy the problem?

That is not the same at all as responsibility. The Parliament can recall a PM through a vote of no confidence for no reason other than he...did not keep their confidence. It can be used to reply to politically unpopular decisions, crises, etc. The impeachment can only be served if POTUS commits a crime.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2008-01-29 01:51am

Nova Andromeda wrote:-How do you propose to vote the Blue Dogs out? In addition, is there some reason to believe the Democrats won't simply continue to cave on everything important? Is there some coalition of liberals with a backbone that I don't know about?
-I wonder if W can simply pardon himself and everyone around him of everything they ever did.

There's quite a few liberals who don't cave. They're the minority. The fix is to ditch the Blue Dogs by making it possible to be liberal in the US and still get elected. Hey, you asked what was needed to get this to stop. I didn't say it was likely.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2008-01-29 01:54am

HemlockGrey wrote:
Vote the Blue Dogs out.
This isn't really an option. In most of the Blue Dog districts voters would never go for a liberal candidate.

Then there's no solution to get to what was requested, because the Blue Dogs will roll over every time.

The only other solution is for the Dems to become as corrupt and insipid as the Republicans and view Impeachment as a mechanism to pursue personal vendettas, a la Clinton.

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2008-01-29 01:57am

SirNitram wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote:-How do you propose to vote the Blue Dogs out? In addition, is there some reason to believe the Democrats won't simply continue to cave on everything important? Is there some coalition of liberals with a backbone that I don't know about?
-I wonder if W can simply pardon himself and everyone around him of everything they ever did.
There's quite a few liberals who don't cave. They're the minority. The fix is to ditch the Blue Dogs by making it possible to be liberal in the US and still get elected. Hey, you asked what was needed to get this to stop. I didn't say it was likely.

-Okay, what do you think the best strategy is to accomplish this goal or are you compromising for something else?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2008-01-29 01:58am

Then there's no solution to get to what was requested, because the Blue Dogs will roll over every time.

Well, yeah. Everyone might as well reconcile themselves to the idea of Bush & Co. living out a long, wealthy, indictment-free retirement.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2008-01-29 01:59am

Nova Andromeda wrote:-Okay, what do you think the best strategy is to accomplish this goal or are you compromising for something else?

If I had a strategy I'd be enacting it. Liberal politics won't take hold in huge tracts of America because it's rural. Now, the coming crunch of fuel prices may drive populations to the cities, and that may help a bit, but I honestly don't see any short term strategy for this. You do what you can with the shitty-ass hand you were dealt. Or you run like hell. Always an option.

Gerald Tarrant · Post by **Gerald Tarrant** » 2008-01-29 02:12am

Anyone catch what his policy statements were? I tuned in late and all I heard was bipartisan entitlement reform.

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2008-01-29 02:20am

SirNitram wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote:-Okay, what do you think the best strategy is to accomplish this goal or are you compromising for something else?
If I had a strategy I'd be enacting it. Liberal politics won't take hold in huge tracts of America because it's rural. Now, the coming crunch of fuel prices may drive populations to the cities, and that may help a bit, but I honestly don't see any short term strategy for this. You do what you can with the shitty-ass hand you were dealt. Or you run like hell. Always an option.

-Well supporting the likes of moveon.org is one strategy.
-I'm not worried so much about the short term as I am about the long term which looks dismal due to an utter lack of long term strategy.
-Perhaps you know someone in the Evil Atheist Conspiracy (TM) that can help?

Vaporous · Post by **Vaporous** » 2008-01-29 04:15am

I found it interesting that he took both climate change and at least a degree human culpability in it for granted. I wonder how long that will last.

Oops, wait there it went.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2008-01-29 09:39am

I give credit where credit is due. There is one portion of his speech where I not only agreed with him 100% but smiled at the joke he used to underline his point. When he said "There are some who say they are willing to pay higher taxes, I'm happy to say the IRS accepts checks and money orders." Nice. Yes, at least when it comes to taxes I find myself a staunch Republican. Good on him for that one.

Mostly everything else was a rinse repeat of his other State of the Union speeches. Plus with all of his threats of vetoing and "if you don't do this" you could almost see most of the Congress shrugging their shoulders. The man is just about completely irrelevant at this point. His poll numbers have not climbed from the basement in years and this is his final year. He's got nothing.

You almost feel sorry for this asshole. He desperately wants a legacy that doesn't paint him as one of the worst presidents in American History and it looks like he ain't gonna get it.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2008-01-29 09:42am

Stravo wrote:I give credit where credit is due. There is one portion of his speech where I not only agreed with him 100% but smiled at the joke he used to underline his point. When he said "There are some who say they are willing to pay higher taxes, I'm happy to say the IRS accepts checks and money orders." Nice. Yes, at least when it comes to taxes I find myself a staunch Republican. Good on him for that one.

Yeah, fuck you poor people and those who need government assistance but can't get it due to no money being in the system!

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2008-01-29 09:56am

Flagg wrote:
Stravo wrote:I give credit where credit is due. There is one portion of his speech where I not only agreed with him 100% but smiled at the joke he used to underline his point. When he said "There are some who say they are willing to pay higher taxes, I'm happy to say the IRS accepts checks and money orders." Nice. Yes, at least when it comes to taxes I find myself a staunch Republican. Good on him for that one.
Yeah, fuck you poor people and those who need government assistance but can't get it due to no money being in the system!

That Strawman you just constructed should have been the monster in Cloverfield.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-01-29 10:06am

He desperately wants a legacy that doesn't paint him as one of the worst presidents in American History and it looks like he ain't gonna get it.

I don't see what's to be sorry about. He's an asshole and quite assuredly a large-scale, international-scale fraudster, which is a crime - especially considering the fact that his frauds brought a huge war in the Middle East. No? Why should anyone feel sorry for hopes of an asshole smashed into little bits when his own population is slowly realising what a real shithead he is?

No, I'd take great joy in having Bush's hopes of placing himself into "normal" or "good" presidents destroyed forever.