Starfox: is General Pepper a dictator?

[TithonusSyndrome]

In StarFox 64, when the player flies through Corneria City, giant murals of the General are visible on buildings everywhere. He appears to have ordered the exile of Andross personally, as game dialog states. He allowed the Cornerian Defense Forces to be pushed back and overrun by a single renegade scientist with the industrial capacity of an uninhabitable planet's ruins, suggesting the kind of abject military incompetence that comes with being a power-mongering tyrant with no room for dissenting input. There's not a lot of canon on the franchise to offer much clarity, but while I was playing recently, the thought struck me - what if Pepper was a dictator who had Andross exiled for crimes less against furrykind and moreso against his junta?

[Rekkon]

Do not forget that some of the canon is also contradictory. While an interesting thought, I do not think it accurate. We see hordes of Andross' forces when we play the game, making him a significant military threat that blitzed across the system in relatively short order. How he mustered them is another matter. Supposedly he was really freaking busy during those first years of exile. The Cornerians were probably more than a little complacent given they owned pretty much all of the system worth owning. I also seem to recall the comics mentioning Andross mind controlling and/or recruiting natives, but I would have to check on that. Venom probably has at least some precious metals or other materials of value he could use to hire mercenaries as well. There is also the games' rather simple black and white morality, and the fact that General Pepper turned over control of the army to Peppy when he got old and weak (ok older).

[DaveJB]

My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I'm pretty sure the Starfox 64/Lylat Wars manual mentioned that Pepper was the head of the military, and that there was a seperate government. It may be that Corneria was holding some kind of event to honour Pepper, and Andross decided to be a dick by attacking in the middle of it, messing up the celebrations.

[Bounty]

Also, wasn't the cheque at the end signed by the Cornerian government, not Pepper?

[Adrian Laguna]

I don't know about who signed it, but if you destroy enough enemies, Pepper comments "That's a steep bill... but it's worth it." If you destroy a whole fucking lot of enemies (>1000, IIRC) he'll gasp in shock.

[Ford Prefect]

a single renegade scientist with the industrial capacity of an uninhabitable planet's ruins

Do you remember the armada from the original? Andross is one hell of a munchkin when it comes to building his forces. Though, if you try really hard, you could probably imagine him having more than one of those bosses you fought in the asteroid belt. If I remember rightly it was some sort 'rock crusher'. Maybe he pointed a couple at a moon and said 'have at it'.

[Setzer]

Mechbeth is a lot closer to Venom then it is to Corneria. Perhaps Andross built most of his forces there. OTOH, Venom might be so polluted because a lot of industry is located there, and is operated by the prisoners. It's pretty common in sci-fi to move polluting industries off-planet.

[RedImperator]

a single renegade scientist with the industrial capacity of an uninhabitable planet's ruins

Do you remember the armada from the original? Andross is one hell of a munchkin when it comes to building his forces. Though, if you try really hard, you could probably imagine him having more than one of those bosses you fought in the asteroid belt. If I remember rightly it was some sort 'rock crusher'. Maybe he pointed a couple at a moon and said 'have at it'.

There were at least two rock crushers in the original game, though I suppose you could argue the one the player engages in Sector X (which I always thought of as some sort of shipyard orbiting Corneria) is the same as the one in the asteroid belt that's broken all the way through.

Andross not only had the armada, he had a giant meteor battlestation and had converted MacBeth into a planet-sized ammunition dump. Sector Z looked like another enormous shipyard, this one entirely under his control. You have to wonder how he accomplished a tenth of this without Corneria noticing. Personally I think it makes more sense to say Venom is in another solar system (along with MacBeth, sectors Y and Z, the giant meteor, and the armada when Star Fox encounters it). Otherwise, the Cornerian government is epically incompetent.

[Vendetta]

If he really is President For Life And Father Of His Planet Generalissimo Pepper, he can't be a very competent dictator, since he can't tie his fucking shoelaces without Fox's help.

[Ford Prefect]

Personally I think it makes more sense to say Venom is in another solar system (along with MacBeth, sectors Y and Z, the giant meteor, and the armada when Star Fox encounters it). Otherwise, the Cornerian government is epically incompetent.

Much, much more sense. In fact, it would be pretty reasonable, if it was spread across two systems. Except of course that it isn't; in the original game it would have been possible to believe that the Conerians just didn't care about anywhere other than Corneria and its immediate surrounds, but StarFox 64 has them spread out in different parts of Lylat.

[Darth Raptor]

Is Corneria incompetent, or impotent? What do we see of their military, apart from a single carrier, some mecha and a few squadrons of fighters? And is StarFox even officially tied to the Cornerian military? They seem more like a mercenary company. It's been years, so my memory is a little fuzzy, but I always saw the Lylat System as a conglomerate of sovereign nation-states, not some kind of Cornerian hegemony that was ZOMG suddenly overthrown. Their military power may not have been keeping up with their economic or political influence before the war.

[Darksider]

In Star Fox 64 the Cornerians have an entire fleet of ships engaging andross' fleet. They have their own fighters, cruisers, and some type of small destroyer. Later, in Star Fox Assault, they have some new type of cruiser that's laying waste to the remnants of Andross' forces in the first mission.

[Molyneux]

In Star Fox 64 the Cornerians have an entire fleet of ships engaging andross' fleet. They have their own fighters, cruisers, and some type of small destroyer. Later, in Star Fox Assault, they have some new type of cruiser that's laying waste to the remnants of Andross' forces in the first mission.

They are pretty badly outgunned, though; and in the first game, I don't think they had any real defensive forces of their own.

And yes, Starfox is a mercenary company, hence why they get paid on a per-enemy basis at the end of Starfox64. As of the end of that game, actually, they were still paying off the bills for the design and construction of Great Fox, which had been built when James McCloud was the head of the group.

[RedImperator]

Is Corneria incompetent, or impotent? What do we see of their military, apart from a single carrier, some mecha and a few squadrons of fighters? And is StarFox even officially tied to the Cornerian military? They seem more like a mercenary company. It's been years, so my memory is a little fuzzy, but I always saw the Lylat System as a conglomerate of sovereign nation-states, not some kind of Cornerian hegemony that was ZOMG suddenly overthrown. Their military power may not have been keeping up with their economic or political influence before the war.

It gets odder when you consider that Andross crushed Corneria in Star Fox and Star Fox 64 (which seem to be two different versions of the same events) with equipment that got wtfpwned by four fighters. In the Space Armada level, an individual Arwing can disable battleships.

When I was younger, I filled in the game's backstory by having some other galactic power supplying the Star Fox team with the technology for the Arwings. They're just ludicrously more advanced than anything either side in the Lylat war has.

[Ford Prefect]

Given that in the original the Arwings did belong to the Cornerians (Pepper tells you to be careful with his Arwings), maybe that's why their military just sucked so much - it was all spent on those four fighters. Whereas Andross actually had a fairly reasonable idea of how to build an army, and thus populated it with a smaller percentage of ludicrous super-weapons. Which is unusual given that he's the goddamn mad scientist supervillain.

Also, why is it that Wolf McDonnell actually manages to seem more successful than his counterpart? I recall that the Wulfen fighters were somewhat better than the Arwings, which means they should have been even more expensive.

[Adrian Laguna]

In Star Fox 64 the Cornerians have an entire fleet of ships engaging andross' fleet. They have their own fighters, cruisers, and some type of small destroyer. Later, in Star Fox Assault, they have some new type of cruiser that's laying waste to the remnants of Andross' forces in the first mission.

Yeah, there's the fleet of ships engaged in an epic battle in Sector Y. They have a base with two squadrons of fighters (Bulldog and Husky) in Katina which was in the middle of a losing battle with Andross' forces when Star Fox intervened. There's a similar base in Fortuna, but they lost control of it. It occurs to me that Andross probably had three main attack forces, each of which took one of the three routes Star Fox can take to Venom, but in reverse. The red route force got held-up in Sector Y, the yellow route force got held-up in Katina, and the blue route force was the one assaulting Corneria.

In a way you can see the whole game as a concerted military effort. Star Fox functions as a spearhead for the Cornerian forces, but the Cornerian Army contributes as well by keeping Venomian forces occupied on other fronts. This can also help explain why you need such a decisive victory in Sector Y to make it to Aquas. By destroying the Venomian fleet so utterly, the Cornerian fleet is free to go assist Katina while Star Fox goes on underwater adventures. Another example is how destroying the fuel depot in Macbeth lets you go through Sector 6. By doing so you allow the Cornerian Army to advance enough that they can lend indirect support to your assault of Sector 6, while failure to do so means taking the safer route to keep from being overwhelmed.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Something to point out...

The snake-like and monkey-like beings who serve Andross are specifically called "Venomites" or "Venomians" or some such, but it is implied they actually ARE from Venom, perhaps Andross too, which would imply most of Andross' army is acually Venom's army, now allied with Andross.

Indeed, Star Fox 64 implied that once, long ago, Venom was way more advanced. The large golem creature you fight in the last level, inside the Venomian ruins, was supposedly left behind from a previous, less barbaric Venom civilization. Thus once could also posit that Andross' technology may be harvested from what is left of the previous Venom civilization's stuff.

What i'm saying is, they're the ur-Covenant.


More to the point, i doubt Pepper is a dictator, by our definition of the word, but he clearly has vastly greater power and authority than any Earth general does. Indeed, one can very easily say that while he may not be a dictator he is, basically, the face of the Cornarian government. But this is not uncommon during a huge war like that--consider how famous real generals like Patton, MacArthur, Ike and Montgomery were and one can see how he kind of became the Cornarian PR czar during the war as well as their military's commander.

[Kuja]

And yes, Starfox is a mercenary company, hence why they get paid on a per-enemy basis at the end of Starfox64.

Minor point of trivia - crunch the numbers and you get 64 dollars for every downed enemy.

Also, why is it that Wolf McDonnell actually manages to seem more successful than his counterpart? I recall that the Wulfen fighters were somewhat better than the Arwings, which means they should have been even more expensive.

As I recall, the basic Wulfen fighter was considered generally inferior to the Arwing. It was the snazzed-out upgraded Wulfen IIs deployed at the end of the game that were superior to the basic Arwing design (faster, more firepower).

Is Corneria incompetent, or impotent?

I'd lean more towards the latter. The Star Fox backstory always gave me the impression that pre-war Corneria was some type of mildly pacifistic society, with a barebones military and light defenses (Katrina was defended with a mere two squadrons, for crying out loud...).

[Molyneux]

Something to point out...

The snake-like and monkey-like beings who serve Andross are specifically called "Venomites" or "Venomians" or some such, but it is implied they actually ARE from Venom, perhaps Andross too, which would imply most of Andross' army is acually Venom's army, now allied with Andross.

Indeed, Star Fox 64 implied that once, long ago, Venom was way more advanced. The large golem creature you fight in the last level, inside the Venomian ruins, was supposedly left behind from a previous, less barbaric Venom civilization. Thus once could also posit that Andross' technology may be harvested from what is left of the previous Venom civilization's stuff.

What i'm saying is, they're the ur-Covenant.


More to the point, i doubt Pepper is a dictator, by our definition of the word, but he clearly has vastly greater power and authority than any Earth general does. Indeed, one can very easily say that while he may not be a dictator he is, basically, the face of the Cornarian government. But this is not uncommon during a huge war like that--consider how famous real generals like Patton, MacArthur, Ike and Montgomery were and one can see how he kind of became the Cornarian PR czar during the war as well as their military's commander.

The first game states that Andross was banished to Venom from Corneria, though (which supports Venom being part of a different planetary system), and the enemies from Starfox Command are, I think, actual natives of Venom that have gone unnoticed until then (or possibly been assumed extinct).

The Wulfen fighters used by Star Wolf in Starfox 64 are supplied to them by Andross, and are supposed to be on par with an Arwing; the Wulfen II model is actually significantly better. Keep in mind, also, that Andrew is Andross' nephew, hence why they get the pick of Andross' ships.

[Ryushikaze]

I don't know if this was mentioned anywhere in any of the games, but IIRC, in the comic that heralded the SNES game, Andross was banished to Venom, but went further out than that to find resources and troops with which to get his revenge. Venom was his base of operations in Lylat, but his forces were amassed elsewhere.

Of course, that's A: from the comics, not the games and B: from memory, so it could all be completely wrong.

As for Impotent v Incompetent, I think it's a little of both. They have a military presence, but it's so small and so out of date that they don't have the punch to do much. The arwings and certain other technologies are specific aims towards correcting these deficiencies, but are not produced soon enough numerously enough to equip to the army, though there are presumably enough spares to lend to the starfox mercenary team, though probably in return for favors to corneria (though they might have outright bought the fighters after their paycheck from Corneria).

[Darth Ruinus]

I thought that Corneria is a seperate government entity than whatever that Independence Day level planet is called. The architecture for that pyramid didnt remind me of anything on Corneria. I also could be wrong, but the fighters in that level dont look anythign like the ones that fly over Corneria at the end of the game, and even the enemies dont look anything like other enemies fought elsewhere (they were dark green/brown IIRC, while most other enemies were some type of silvery gray with oranges and blues) maybe those enemies were another enemy state?

The way I saw it, was that Corneria doesnt have control of that whole star system, each planet was independant or something akin to that, hence the Cornerian fleets never went out farther than those 2 sectors, they may not have had permission to enter sovereign territory.

BTW, how do we know that Corneria didnt have a big army, it could just be that by the time Starfox got there they had been wiped out, the impression I got from them fielding some big battlecruiser type thing in that one sector was that they do have some form of army, at least a competent and fairly built up one. Hell, by the sounds of it, they were fighting off or fighting to a standstill some of the invading forces.

Its been a long time since I played that game though...

[Peptuck]

I thought that Corneria is a seperate government entity than whatever that Independence Day level planet is called. The architecture for that pyramid didnt remind me of anything on Corneria. I also could be wrong, but the fighters in that level dont look anythign like the ones that fly over Corneria at the end of the game, and even the enemies dont look anything like other enemies fought elsewhere (they were dark green/brown IIRC, while most other enemies were some type of silvery gray with oranges and blues) maybe those enemies were another enemy state?

The brief glimpse we get of Bill, the leader of the Katina fighter forces, shows he's wearing a helmet that matches those you see on the Cornerian soldiers in the ending during General Pepper's big speech.

The coloration of the forces is odd, but Andross' troops and ships have a ridiculous variation in ship designs and coloration anyway.

[Molyneux]

I thought that Corneria is a seperate government entity than whatever that Independence Day level planet is called. The architecture for that pyramid didnt remind me of anything on Corneria. I also could be wrong, but the fighters in that level dont look anythign like the ones that fly over Corneria at the end of the game, and even the enemies dont look anything like other enemies fought elsewhere (they were dark green/brown IIRC, while most other enemies were some type of silvery gray with oranges and blues) maybe those enemies were another enemy state?

The brief glimpse we get of Bill, the leader of the Katina fighter forces, shows he's wearing a helmet that matches those you see on the Cornerian soldiers in the ending during General Pepper's big speech.

The coloration of the forces is odd, but Andross' troops and ships have a ridiculous variation in ship designs and coloration anyway.

Well, Andross' ships were designed and built by a mad genius, who converted himself into a giant floating brain with independently flying eyeballs. Corneria only shows two or three types of fighters, I think.

[VT-16]

It's been years since I played both Starfox and Starfox 64, but I got some interesting info from watching Youtube playthroughs etc.

There's almost 100% of a chance Venom is in another system. The prologue states that Andross is invading the Lylat System. That doesn't really make much sense if Venom is already inside it. The world is also described as distant and remote.

Also, all the sentient bosses and enemy soldiers we hear, speak English (or the translation of whatever native language is used in the system) just like the heroes. If Venom doesn't have sentient life anymore, these guys either got drafted from other worlds in Lylat or outside the system. The planet Papetoon is mentioned as McCloud's homeworld in the Japanese Star Fox 64 Manual, so there are colony worlds under Corneria that don't necessarily get screentime.

[Bounty]

There's almost 100% of a chance Venom is in another system. The prologue states that Andross is invading the Lylat System. That doesn't really make much sense if Venom is already inside it.

While it's stylised, the map clearly shows Venom in orbit around Lylat's star. And it's an outer planet, so while "invading the system" is vague, it can still be used to Andross' attack - he came in from the outskirts and swarmed every planet. That doesn't necessarily mean he came from another system altogether.