WH40K question (IG)

[Lord Revan]

I've just been playing and was wondering about the power claw/first + bolter/storm bolter/plasma gun(?) weapon the IG leader uses, it seems rather odd as IIRC both bolters and storm bolters are 2 hand weapons and trying to to fire one with just 1 hand without special training and/or power armor would result on missing your target and probably a dislocated shoulder.

So would this mean that the IG leaders (or Lucas Alexander) is so augmented that they can use bolters 1 handed(or have the training to do so if possible) or that those a even lesser versions to those normally used by "normal" humans?

also those weapons seem rather small compared to the rather massive bolters used by Sisters of Battle and other unaugmented humans.

[Lord Revan]

I've just been playing and was wondering about the power claw/first + bolter/storm bolter/plasma gun(?) weapon the IG leader uses, it seems rather odd as IIRC both bolters and storm bolters are 2 hand weapons and trying to to fire one with just 1 hand without special training and/or power armor would result on missing your target and probably a dislocated shoulder.

So would this mean that the IG leaders (or Lucas Alexander) is so augmented that they can use bolters 1 handed(or have the training to do so if possible) or that those a even lesser versions to those normally used by "normal" humans?

also those weapons seem rather small compared to the rather massive bolters used by Sisters of Battle and other unaugmented humans.

Ghetto Edit:I've just been playing Dawn of War:Dark Crusade

[Ford Prefect]

Alexander's weapons are clearly smaller calibre weapons with a lower exhaust velocity. There's no discounting the fact that he is armed weirdly (but awesomely, from my warped perspective of things), but it's not so far fetched to make it work.

Ultimately, bolters come in a lot of different shapes and sizes. The Sisters are able to lug around larger weapons because a) they're more massive due to their armour and b) nuns.

[Lazarus]

It's quite possible that Alexander is augmented in some way which will improve his combat capability. The fact he can successfully take down, or at least hold his own against, a variety of creatures that should otherwise rip through humans suggests this in my eyes. His armour could well also have features that enable the use of weapons like Bolters.

[Lost Soal]

Don't see the problem. Powerfists can be turned on and off at will so he can fire any two handed weapons without turning it into scrap.

[NecronLord]

It's possible to have these weapons equipped with their own anti-gravitic motors too, to support their weight.

[andrewgpaul]

Obviously, he simply hero-worships the famous Commissar Yarrick, and wishes to emulate him.

[NeoGoomba]

To put it simply, aren't bolters glorified RPG launchers with highly mod-able ammo? If thats the case, why couldn't they be scaled down for Guardsmen, even if its just for a two or three shot weapon when a Lasgun won't do?

[Zablorg]

To put it simply, aren't bolters glorified RPG launchers with highly mod-able ammo? If thats the case, why couldn't they be scaled down for Guardsmen, even if its just for a two or three shot weapon when a Lasgun won't do?

Because it would be disgusting to see a dog of the guard wield such an elite and holy weapon!

[NeoGoomba]

Emperor damn my heretic ass!

[Zor]

Lasguns are the AK-47s of the Warhammer 40,000 Universe, Lasguns can be built in very large numbers with a minimal industrial base (the Gue'vesa Militias of the Tau Empire have no problems producing small arms for their men to serve the Greater Good with) as is their ammunition. You can recharge a Lasgun energy cell by leaving it out in the sun or tossing it into a campfire. Bolters are far harder to produce and mantain, as is their ammunition, as well as being harder to carry and producing more recoil. Certain Lasguns are better than others .

Zor

[Tasoth]

The big reason why the guard does not have bolters is the heresy. Those in power in the imperium immediately afterwards, and I think it was guilliman who decided this, felt that giving the guard back the weapons that gave them the ability to kill loyal marines easily was stupid. Hence why they also don't have landspeeders anymore. The guard were revamped to be highly effective against planetary defense forces but not the marines so that the marines can just steam roll them should it become absolutely necessary. Hence why lasguns became the standard issue weapon. Some units also still use autoguns.

P.S. The guard wear flak armor for the same reason.

[Connor MacLeod]

Technically there is no real reason the Guard couldn't use bolters. There are cases (some early examples, but some very recent. The most recent example is the Tallarn in the "Desert Raiders" novel) of Guardsmen using bolters along with other weapons. Moreover, considering that heavy bolters are a semi-common weapon in the IG there's no reason boltguns couldn't be used, at least as some support/speical weapon.

In universe alot of reasons are given - maintenace is one (which is kind of true, but when you have Guardsmen using heavy bolters and plasma weapons which are also maintenance intensive.) and bolters are supposed to be more "sophisticated" or "better" weapons - doing more damage (which can be true, but like most cases it depends on the exact model of weapons that you compare.) Truth be told, a decent lasgun (especially on higher settings) probably isn't a whole lot LESS damaging than a bolter a normal person can use - remember that Space Marines use bigger/heavier and more powerful bolters as well. Lasguns probably are also more accurate (for a normal person) with greater range and mroe versatility.

I really suspect that, like with Carapace, it really just depends on the regiment. I do imagine some Guard units use Bolters as a support weapon, though when you can have grenade launchers and bullet firing weapons (autoweapons and stubbers - both of hwich can use explosive ammo.) I imagine bolters aren't quite as "neccessary" either.

[Lord Revan]

the thing is that in the CMS codex I have, bolters are described as having signifigant recoil (in the Book of Nurgle part in the descripion of the true grit ability).

yet Lucas Alexander (an imperial guard general) can wear a bolter/storm bolter strapped into his forearm (like the ones Grey Knights use though smaller and in the right hand instead of left).

[Karza]

the thing is that in the CMS codex I have, bolters are described as having signifigant recoil (in the Book of Nurgle part in the descripion of the true grit ability).

yet Lucas Alexander (an imperial guard general) can wear a bolter/storm bolter strapped into his forearm (like the ones Grey Knights use though smaller and in the right hand instead of left).

Bolter recoil seems to vary from model to model though. I recall some book dealing with the inquisition (ie. either a Draco or Eisenhorn book) mentioned that bolters can have very low recoil if firing a shell with a very low muzzle velocity, which then significantly accelerates with it's own rocketmotor once it has cleared the barrel. Also, Alexander's bolter/storm bolter is probably of Guard issue, so it'd probably be a lighter, lower-recoil model, whereas the CSM codex is doubtlessly talking about the .75 cal monsters that Marines use.

[andrewgpaul]

...the CSM codex is doubtlessly talking about the .75 cal monsters that Marines use.

Not sure where this is discussed, but the new Dark Heresy RPG says of bolters,

="in Chapter V: Armoury, Dark Heresy"]... It would be a mistake to confuse these "civilian" issue weapons with those of the Adeptus Astartes. ... The standard bolter round is .75 calibre ...

To me, that implies that the bolters being wielded by assorted Imperial Guard officers are .75 calibre, while Marine models are even bigger. Like I say, though, I could be missing another contradictory reference.

Bolt weapons in the Guard aren't even that rare; veteran squad sergeants manage to get hold of bolt pistols and bolt guns appear to be readily available to lieutenants.

[andrewgpaul]

Arggh. could someone fix my fucked up quote tag there?

[Connor MacLeod]

Bolt pistol calibres seem to be the same regardless of the kind of weapon, its largely the recoil of the weapon that differs, which means its terms of how much propellant is used, and how much recoil is from the rocket as opposed to casings.

In a number of sourcecs (Iron Hands and Grey Knights) Space Marine bolter recoil can break a normal human's arm when fired. In the Soul Drinkers novels, an Inquisitor tries using a Soul Drinkers bolt pistol, and can only fire the thing when braced and using it two handed (basically a two handed weapon for a normal person - a space marine firing it still feels some recoil.) Space Marine bolters seem to have a stronger propellant charge in the bolt casing (they do eject casings, remember) to complement the propellant charge, hence the greater recoil. This gives the Space Marine bolter greater range (which, when coupled with Space Marine senses and targeging systems, and power armoured limbs, allows them greater accuracy, even without a stock.)

A "human-scale" bolter (like we see in the Inquisition war novels or other sourecs) probably has much lower recoil and little/no propellant in the casing - most of the velocity comes from the rocket iself (like a real gyrojet.) This means it has lower muzzle velocity (and thus both less impact and shorter ranges than their Space Marine equivalents.)

Also, while the calibre/diameter of the bullets does not seem to differ, I suspect "human" bolter rounds are much shorter than their Space Marine counterparts, which can effectively make them lighter/less powerful.
A few exceeptional humans (BRagg like) could probably heft Space Marine bolters, though probably not nearly as accurate (or at least not with the same range.)

[Ritterin Sophia]

Bolt pistol calibres seem to be the same regardless of the kind of weapon, its largely the recoil of the weapon that differs, which means its terms of how much propellant is used, and how much recoil is from the rocket as opposed to casings.

So an Astartes' bolter round is to the Guards and civillian bolter rounds as 5.56 NATO is to a .223 Remington?

[Lord Revan]

Now a different question as I didn't want to make a new thread and this sort of is connected to the title.

Do guardsmen who joined Chaos were distinc uniforms (the Eye of Terror codex gives them a black and red uniform with chaos icons) or just their former uniforms with chaos icons and insignia added, also do traitor totally dedicated to 1 god only wear colors of that god?

[Ford Prefect]

Do guardsmen who joined Chaos were distinc uniforms (the Eye of Terror codex gives them a black and red uniform with chaos icons) or just their former uniforms with chaos icons and insignia added

I remember some fluff where a traitor guardsman lovingly crafted the insignia on his uniform. It's certainly most likely that they'd have to do it themselves - their masters probably don't have the time to bother.

[[R_H]]

Do guardsmen who joined Chaos were distinc uniforms (the Eye of Terror codex gives them a black and red uniform with chaos icons) or just their former uniforms with chaos icons and insignia added

I remember some fluff where a traitor guardsman lovingly crafted the insignia on his uniform. It's certainly most likely that they'd have to do it themselves - their masters probably don't have the time to bother.

There are the Sons of Sek (mentionned in "Traitor General") and Blood Pact. The Blood Pact are recruited from the Sabbat Worlds and are trained in IG tactics and doctrine but they also employed traitor IG for training. (according to Wiki

[white_rabbit]

Now a different question as I didn't want to make a new thread and this sort of is connected to the title.

Do guardsmen who joined Chaos were distinc uniforms (the Eye of Terror codex gives them a black and red uniform with chaos icons) or just their former uniforms with chaos icons and insignia added, also do traitor totally dedicated to 1 god only wear colors of that god?

Yes and no.

"joining chaos" is sometimes a little hard to nail down. Basically what tends to happen is the Officers get tainted, and manipulate things so that the rest of the formation ends up that way as well, or that they don't "know" that they are Rebels.

Its obviously dependant on the situation, but if you are trained to obey orders, and your officers tell you that the other side is tainted/rebels, then you can go a long way with that.

Other times entire regiments become chaos worshippers, Chaos is warping and corrupting, adherents tend to have very different perspectives on things, the various rituals and rites involved in the myriad forms of chaos worship inevitably include some form of devotional physical decoration/mutilation. I suppose from a psychological perspective, as well as ritually, defacing and mutilating Imperial insignia and script is a given as well.

All in all, the Gods Demand Sacrifice and Worship.

For Chaos this means dead people, tortured loyalists, desecrated emblems of your former faith, and proving your faith by inscribing your flesh.

Spikes are also a symbol of faith and worship for lesser chaos entities, as well as being nasty and evil...raargh.

Some "chaos" forces might not even know or understand they are chaotic.

As far as the "colours" go, I don't think you absolutely need to have specific colours, the colours used are less specific choices, more indicative of what the various cults end up adorning themselves with or end up inflicted with.

i.e. Khorne, blood and brass to emulate their God, Nurgle, icky disease, Slaanesh, context sensitive, Tzeentch WTF my eyes hurt.

The choices in the Codexs etc for Traitor guardsmen are chosen more or less because they are striking, and don't look particularly like the various types of Camo and dress uniforms the loyalist Guard use.

[Cykeisme]

The big reason why the guard does not have bolters is the heresy. Those in power in the imperium immediately afterwards, and I think it was guilliman who decided this, felt that giving the guard back the weapons that gave them the ability to kill loyal marines easily was stupid. Hence why they also don't have landspeeders anymore. The guard were revamped to be highly effective against planetary defense forces but not the marines so that the marines can just steam roll them should it become absolutely necessary. Hence why lasguns became the standard issue weapon. Some units also still use autoguns.

P.S. The guard wear flak armor for the same reason.

Don't know the source of that, but that doesn't really make sense, whether in-universe or whether considering game mechanics.

In-universe, as has been stated on this thread already, a bolter that would be man-portable by a Guardsman would be nowhere near as large or powerful as the massive arms that Space Marines wield like a monster SMG or rifle. Normal "human-scale" bolters are doubtful to be effective against power armor - and, in the fluff, power armor is pretty resistant against Astartes-sized bolters anyway.
Furthermore, consider the nature of the Imperial Guard and its daily activities as a whole: they have to kill disloyal Marines after all, never mind the hordes of xeno scum out there. It's downright ridiculous that entire armies of the Emperor's loyal servants, fighting tooth and nail against the foes of mankind, would be deliberately de-fanged.

Besides, the Guard does use tripod-mounted heavy bolters as squad support weapons. This alone quite handily blows the "Guilliman doesn't want Guardsmen to kill loyal marines" idea.


As stated, realistically, within the classes "bolt pistol", "boltgun" and "heavy bolter", there is going to still be massive variation. The pistols, boltguns and heavy bolters used by Astartes are going to be much larger and more powerful than equivalents carried by regular humans.
The only place where a "bolter" is a bolter , is the tabletop. Even then, S4 AP5 is only marginally more effective against Space Marines than S3 AP-. An increase from 5.56% to 8.33% to wound a Marine, basically.
Logically, though, only power armor-wearing Adeptus Sororitas are able to wield boltguns with a similar effectiveness to those fielded by the Astartes.


Contrast all that with some far more likely reasons for the issue of lasguns as standard weapons to the majority of Guardsmen:
Lasguns are cheaper to manufacture, require less maintenance and spare parts, and are reliable to the point of making a mockery of the modern AK-47's vaunted resilience.
Furthermore, whereas bolt rounds are expensive to manufacture and fairly voluminous to ship, lasgun power packs can be charged from any electrical (and even thermal) power sources. This makes even the real-world availability of 7.62x39mm look like a joke when it comes to logistical purposes!

[Peptuck]

The big reason why the guard does not have bolters is the heresy. Those in power in the imperium immediately afterwards, and I think it was guilliman who decided this, felt that giving the guard back the weapons that gave them the ability to kill loyal marines easily was stupid. Hence why they also don't have landspeeders anymore. The guard were revamped to be highly effective against planetary defense forces but not the marines so that the marines can just steam roll them should it become absolutely necessary. Hence why lasguns became the standard issue weapon. Some units also still use autoguns.

P.S. The guard wear flak armor for the same reason.

Got it backwards. The restructuring of the Imperial Army, Navy, and the Astartes under the Codex Astartes was intended to break the power of the Marine legions, not the Army, to prevent this kind of heresy from ever happening again.

The Army itself is virtually indistinguishable from the current Guard in the Heresy novels, saving they were under the command of Marine Legions and didn't have Commissars.