Was Palpatine a great mastermind?

[Surlethe]

Mr Degan, you have not satisfactorily detailed why the apparent discrepancy between the novelization and the movie must be an irreconcilable contradiction and thus the novelization be thrown out. As Dr Saxton, whom you have yourself quoted, notes,

Only reject existing material where absolutely necessary. Story elements must have genuine continuity problems to justify discarding them; material shan't be thrown away simply because many people hold it to be repugnant or embarassing. The STAR WARS Holiday Special is a prime example. If a source is uncomfortable or incongruent at face value, it is often possible to add background circumstances to alter its significance and give a more realistic perspective.

Sources should be treated with a view towards unifying everything to give a coherent and concise internal reality to the STAR WARS universe. Wherever phenomena can be explained in several different ways, the theory to be favoured is that which requires the simplest and fewest postulates, and which entails the least ad hoc changes in time. Wherever possible, real physical principles must be applied for the assessment of theories. Common phenomena in technological and natural features of STAR WARS should have common causes.

Therefore, the burden is upon you to explain not just why there appears to be a conflict, but why that conflict is necessarily impossible to reconcile.

[Patrick Degan]

Mr Degan, you have not satisfactorily detailed why the apparent discrepancy between the novelization and the movie must be an irreconcilable contradiction and thus the novelization be thrown out. As Dr Saxton, whom you have yourself quoted, notes,

Only reject existing material where absolutely necessary. Story elements must have genuine continuity problems to justify discarding them; material shan't be thrown away simply because many people hold it to be repugnant or embarassing. The STAR WARS Holiday Special is a prime example. If a source is uncomfortable or incongruent at face value, it is often possible to add background circumstances to alter its significance and give a more realistic perspective.

Sources should be treated with a view towards unifying everything to give a coherent and concise internal reality to the STAR WARS universe. Wherever phenomena can be explained in several different ways, the theory to be favoured is that which requires the simplest and fewest postulates, and which entails the least ad hoc changes in time. Wherever possible, real physical principles must be applied for the assessment of theories. Common phenomena in technological and natural features of STAR WARS should have common causes.

Therefore, the burden is upon you to explain not just why there appears to be a conflict, but why that conflict is necessarily impossible to reconcile.

Maybe because we don't actually see in the movie the huge number of ships which the novel suggests —which should have made it possible for the Rebels to win at Endor simply by sheer weight of numbers over the stardestroyer force present at the sanctuary moon. I really don't know why this is so damn difficult to comprehend.

[Surlethe]

Maybe because we don't actually see in the movie the huge number of ships which the novel suggests —which should have made it possible for the Rebels to win at Endor simply by sheer weight of numbers over the stardestroyer force present at the sanctuary moon. I really don't know why this is so damn difficult to comprehend.

Why would they win out of sheer numbers? Because you say so? You still have not established that this "contradiction" is necessarily irreconcilable.

[atg]

Maybe because we don't actually see in the movie the huge number of ships which the novel suggests

Which is adequately explained in the novel. As has been mentioned to you several times the fleet spread further than naked eye could see in one go. So there is no contradiction here that would necessitate throwing out the novels indication of the rebel fleets size.

[wjs7744]

Maybe because we don't actually see in the movie the huge number of ships which the novel suggests —which should have made it possible for the Rebels to win at Endor simply by sheer weight of numbers over the stardestroyer force present at the sanctuary moon. I really don't know why this is so damn difficult to comprehend.

Translation from Degan-speak: We don't see them so they don't exist. Because I said so.

...

Actually, that didn't need much translating, I think you're losing it. Also, why don't you justify your implicit assumption that the Imperial fleet we see was the entire imperial force at Endor, hmm?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Translation from Primus-Speak: "Don't believe what you see in that lying movie, MINE is the True Word."

It is has been perfectly established that "off-screen" events are permitted and can exist. Your interpretation rests on the case that the cuts representing the Rebel fleet veering to avoid the shield prove that the fleet cannot be so large.

And yet, that cut shows only a single [Liberty]-type, and Home One. Yet we observe that both Liberty and another vessel of Home One's class is immolated by the Death Star, Mark II superlaser; yet ADM Ackbar and his flagship survive to the end of the battle. It is already established that a considerable scale of the armada was off-screen; ships from the selfsame film are visible later but not visible in that scene.

Secondly, the Revenge of the Sith film depicts a Coruscanti upper atmosphere and low orbit filled with fighting ships in close quarters. We see thousands of ships within visual range; and yet, the cartoon shows multiple Providence-class warships (the base class for the CSS Invisible Hand) and ships in deeper space and around the entire world. Are we to conclude that because the Revenge of the Sith film cannot firmly establish such ships in its shots, that they do not exist and never did?

Here's a clue for you: according to Lucas policy, where there is a contradiction between the movie and the material in a book —even in a novelisation— the movie wins and the book loses.

You have not established an irreconcilable contradiction. As said already, the ships could appear "off-screen" or in deep space; space combat between vessels capable of relativistic travel and baring weapons with a muzzle velocity of c should not be expected to have to fight within visual range.

That is Curt Saxton saying this, not myself. That is evidence, which has been presented in this thread before and has simply been ignored, for the position that the book does not trump what is seen in the actual movie.

Dr. Saxton's fan site is not an acceptable source for establishing the form of and means by which Lucasfilm Limited establishes the Star Wars canon and continuity policy.

Maybe because we don't actually see in the movie the huge number of ships which the novel suggests —which should have made it possible for the Rebels to win at Endor simply by sheer weight of numbers over the stardestroyer force present at the sanctuary moon. I really don't know why this is so damn difficult to comprehend.

HIMS Executor's volume - and thus likely mass, assuming a roughly equivalent density - is equivalent to hundreds of the films' one-mile Imperial Star Destroyers. Secondly, the same novelisation still establishes that the Imperial fleet outnumbered even the beyond-visual-range Rebel fleet. Not only that, but the EU establishes the Endor trap as a pincer attack from both sides of the Endor sanctuary moon. Therefore the battlegroup arrayed around HIMS Executor may be only one of two concentrations of the Imperial forces. Its quite possible an equivalent force to the one seen attacking the Rebel fleet approached from the opposite direction. This is apart from the EU documenting Interdictor cruisers and Victory-class destroyers deployed at the edges of the system as a rear guard. The Imperial force boasts a ship of the line greatly in excess combat ability to the common combatants of the contest, and there is nothing constraining them from outnumbering even the gross total of Rebel assets, including those sequestered in deeper space beyond visual range as documented by the novelisation.

It is quite sad you retain the pretense that you are dominating the debate, though you've quietly snipped or removed or stopped commenting on any parts of the debate, any refutations, which you can no longer respond to substantially or convincingly. Reduced now, like the Black Knight, to prattling about victory while your limbs lie on the ground around you.

Even if I were wrong about this Endor dispute (I am not), it still would not establish what your argument requires - that the novelisation's claim that the entire official Alliance membership was deployed in the Endor operation is not true. Even if it were not true (it is), that would not establish that the Rebellion was a broad-based, statistically significant, or truly populist movement. And without that you have no basis for an argument that Palpatine's rule was marked with popular resistance and Rebel disorder. Especially in light of citations which establish that even "the Star Warriors" as of Spectre of the Past respect the ability of Palpatine and the Palpatinist state in quelling and controlled civil strife, disorder, and local civil war. And in light of the fact that this is the sole argument pertaining to the central issue which you are still making even a threadbare claim to addressing - having quietly ignored arguments you could not refute and discarded quotations you could not address - you ought to concede your argument.

[Surlethe]

The line of reasoning used to support "we don't see them" necessarily invokes Occam's Razor. In doing so, the reasoning quietly assumes that there is no evidence suggesting the existence of off-screen ships, making the argument neatly circular.

[Patrick Degan]

The line of reasoning used to support "we don't see them" necessarily invokes Occam's Razor. In doing so, the reasoning quietly assumes that there is no evidence suggesting the existence of off-screen ships, making the argument neatly circular.

Nice try. But unfortunately, the "what we see is what we get" explanation is the one which requires the least number of variables to support it. Particularly given how George Lucas took two shots at updating ROTJ and, for some reason, simply does not bother with altering the Endor spacebattle scenes to put in a larger number of ships in either Special Edition.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The line of reasoning used to support "we don't see them" necessarily invokes Occam's Razor. In doing so, the reasoning quietly assumes that there is no evidence suggesting the existence of off-screen ships, making the argument neatly circular.

Nice try. But unfortunately, the "what we see is what we get" explanation is the one which requires the least number of variables to support it. Particularly given how George Lucas took two shots at updating ROTJ and, for some reason, simply does not bother with altering the Endor spacebattle scenes to put in a larger number of ships in either Special Edition.

You're an imbecile. The existence of a beyond visual range Rebel fleet is canonical fact, and discarding that data requires a preponderance of evidence of equivalent value or evidence of higher value that cannot be reconciled with that data. The novelisation says the fleet stretches beyond eyesight, so a movie clip not showing the ships in question cannot establish they do not exist. All it establishes is they are not present within line-of-sight of the viewpoint and not within visual range. The novelisation provides us with the reconciliation handedly. Furthermore, if those clips firmly establish the ships belonging to the Rebel fleet, where are the other two ships of Home One's class later observed? Where are the Liberty analogues which can be seen after the Liberty itself is destroyed? This is literally Scooter territory. Its not present in the film so it cannot exist?

And who gives a shit how many Rebel ships there were at Endor? Even if the novelisation was in error about the ships present and afloat at the rendezvous point at Sullust, that still does not invalidate it's canonical statement that the entirety of the official Rebel civilian and military membership was deployed in the Endor operation. A smaller Rebel fleet constrains the size of the Rebellion even more, increasing its relative irrelevancy. The more irrelevant the Rebellion, the less meaningful citing its existence as a strike against Palpatine's statecraft. A smaller Endor fleet is better for my position, because it proves the biggest coherent opposition to Palpatine's rule was the statistical equivalent of a lunatic shooting up a post office or tossing a nailbomb at the Olympics.

[Surlethe]

The line of reasoning used to support "we don't see them" necessarily invokes Occam's Razor. In doing so, the reasoning quietly assumes that there is no evidence suggesting the existence of off-screen ships, making the argument neatly circular.

Nice try. But unfortunately, the "what we see is what we get" explanation is the one which requires the least number of variables to support it.

As I said, you are implicitly invoking Occam's Razor. This does nothing at all to rebut my point that you are begging the question; in fact, you are strengthening my position by behaving exactly as I predicted!

[Patrick Degan]

The line of reasoning used to support "we don't see them" necessarily invokes Occam's Razor. In doing so, the reasoning quietly assumes that there is no evidence suggesting the existence of off-screen ships, making the argument neatly circular.

Nice try. But unfortunately, the "what we see is what we get" explanation is the one which requires the least number of variables to support it. Particularly given how George Lucas took two shots at updating ROTJ and, for some reason, simply does not bother with altering the Endor spacebattle scenes to put in a larger number of ships in either Special Edition.

You're an imbecile. The existence of a beyond visual range Rebel fleet is canonical fact, and discarding that data requires a preponderance of evidence of equivalent value or evidence of higher value that cannot be reconciled with that data. The novelisation says the fleet stretches beyond eyesight, so a movie clip not showing the ships in question cannot establish they do not exist. All it establishes is they are not present within line-of-sight of the viewpoint and not within visual range. The novelisation provides us with the reconciliation handedly. Furthermore, if those clips firmly establish the ships belonging to the Rebel fleet, where are the other two ships of Home One's class later observed? Where are the Liberty analogues which can be seen after the Liberty itself is destroyed? This is literally Scooter territory. Its not present in the film so it cannot exist?

Your "data" consists of a single paragraph in the novelisation. Cute.

And who gives a shit how many Rebel ships there were at Endor? Even if the novelisation was in error about the ships present and afloat at the rendezvous point at Sullust, that still does not invalidate it's canonical statement that the entirety of the official Rebel civilian and military membership was deployed in the Endor operation. A smaller Rebel fleet constrains the size of the Rebellion even more, increasing its relative irrelevancy. The more irrelevant the Rebellion, the less meaningful citing its existence as a strike against Palpatine's statecraft. A smaller Endor fleet is better for my position, because it proves the biggest coherent opposition to Palpatine's rule was the statistical equivalent of a lunatic shooting up a post office or tossing a nailbomb at the Olympics.

In a word, bullshit. An opposition as small as you now allege would have been zero threat to the Empire (and if it really was that small, yet still proved enough to beat Palpatine, that doesn't speak much to his supposed "genius" that he could get beaten or even seriously inconvenienced by so small an opposition). Yet we have Mon Mothma speaking to the Empire having to spread its navy throughout the galaxy "in a vain attempt to engage us". It follows that there must have been sufficient forces to keep the Imperials out hunting for them, making enough demonstrations at widely spread-out locations to pull task forces out to the far reaches of the galaxy.

And what about the Mon Calamari? Don't they count as part of the Rebellion? They managed to actually push the Imperials off their homeworld and supplied the Alliance with its capital ships. Was the entire planetary population in the fleet at Endor as well?

[atg]

Your "data" consists of a single paragraph in the novelisation. Cute.

Whether its a paragraph, a chapter, or a single word it is still part of canon and therefore must be accepted.

In a word, bullshit. An opposition as small as you now allege would have been zero threat to the Empire (and if it really was that small, yet still proved enough to beat Palpatine, that doesn't speak much to his supposed "genius" that he could get beaten or even seriously inconvenienced by so small an opposition).

The rebels didn't defeat Palpatine, Darth Vader did. It was also quite clearly established by Thrawn in Heir to the Empire that the loss of Palpatines battle meditation completely borked the skills and determination of the Imperial fleet. It is established in the same novel that the Imperials could have easily won the battle if that didn't happen.

Yet we have Mon Mothma speaking to the Empire having to spread its navy throughout the galaxy "in a vain attempt to engage us". It follows that there must have been sufficient forces to keep the Imperials out hunting for them, making enough demonstrations at widely spread-out locations to pull task forces out to the far reaches of the galaxy.

And Mon Mothma's information in this regard is accurate? Don't forget the Endor was a trap. Palpatine wanted the rebels to attack, and would have given the fleet orders to give the impression to the rebels that everything was OK for their attack. Remember that Vader and Palpatine knew that the rebels were massing at Sullust, Palpatine decided to leave them alone knowing they were going to fall right into his trap. Mon Mothma and the Rebels assumed that if the Imperial fleet was 'spread out' that meant that nothing would be around defending the Death Star.
Mon Mothma calls it a 'vain' attempt to engage the rebels, would this not imply that there was nothing out where they were searching to engage?

The only mistake that Palpatine made throughout the whole Endor scenario was not realising that Vader could turn against Palpatine over Luke, and considering that Vader had virtually been Palpatine's slave for the previous 20 years that isn't that much of a misread of Vader on Palpatines behalf.

[TC Pilot]

Your "data" consists of a single paragraph in the novelisation. Cute.

Good lord you're a dumbass.

What's your "data"? A baseless, incoherent argument that requires you to be so fucking dense that you need to rewrite the established canon policy and dismiss and outright ignore every piece of evidence and canon that disagrees with you (which is everything, since you've been completely wrong from the start)?

In a word, bullshit. An opposition as small as you now allege would have been zero threat to the Empire (and if it really was that small, yet still proved enough to beat Palpatine, that doesn't speak much to his supposed "genius" that he could get beaten or even seriously inconvenienced by so small an opposition).

Did you actually watch Episode VI, by any chance? Because it was Darth Vader that threw Palpatine down the reactor shaft, not the Rebel Alliance. At best, the Rebels destroyed the Death Star and a handful of Star Destroyers. Inconsequential blows delivered by an inconsequential force. The Emperor was all that really mattered in the long-run. He was what held the innumerable competing interests together, he was what kept the galaxy unified, and he was the heart and soul of the Empire.

Keep in mind, also, that the Rebel fleet was absolutely decimated from the battle. A quarter of the fleet had been destroyed outright, and only another quarter was actually fit enough to fight, according to the Truce at Bakura sourcebook (meaning a minimum 75% casualty rate). If it were not for Lord Vader's betrayal, Endor would have been a crushing Rebel defeat.

Yet we have Mon Mothma speaking to the Empire having to spread its navy throughout the galaxy "in a vain attempt to engage us".

You do realize the Empire knew about the Rebel plan for months and led them unwittingly into a trap, right?

It follows that there must have been sufficient forces to keep the Imperials out hunting for them, making enough demonstrations at widely spread-out locations to pull task forces out to the far reaches of the galaxy.

You really are a full-blown retard. The Battle of Endor was a trap. Lord Vader knew the Rebel fleet's precise location. The game TIE Fighter has an entire campaign tasking the player to destroy as many Rebels as possible so that they would have to commit their entire force to Endor.

RotJ novelization and TIE Fighter trump your inane bullshit any day.

[Surlethe]

Your "data" consists of a single paragraph in the novelisation. Cute.

A datum which you refuse to incorporate into your model. Have you changed your canon policy sufficiently away from that of Dr Saxton, which you and I both cited? If so, why do you expect us to use it?

And who gives a shit how many Rebel ships there were at Endor? Even if the novelisation was in error about the ships present and afloat at the rendezvous point at Sullust, that still does not invalidate it's canonical statement that the entirety of the official Rebel civilian and military membership was deployed in the Endor operation. A smaller Rebel fleet constrains the size of the Rebellion even more, increasing its relative irrelevancy. The more irrelevant the Rebellion, the less meaningful citing its existence as a strike against Palpatine's statecraft. A smaller Endor fleet is better for my position, because it proves the biggest coherent opposition to Palpatine's rule was the statistical equivalent of a lunatic shooting up a post office or tossing a nailbomb at the Olympics.

In a word, bullshit. An opposition as small as you now allege would have been zero threat to the Empire (and if it really was that small, yet still proved enough to beat Palpatine, that doesn't speak much to his supposed "genius" that he could get beaten or even seriously inconvenienced by so small an opposition). Yet we have Mon Mothma speaking to the Empire having to spread its navy throughout the galaxy "in a vain attempt to engage us". It follows that there must have been sufficient forces to keep the Imperials out hunting for them, making enough demonstrations at widely spread-out locations to pull task forces out to the far reaches of the galaxy.

There are multiple explanations for this statement which do not require contradicting established canon. Here are a couple:

• Mon Mothma was acting on false information. This is most straightforward, since we known that the Emperor was feeding the rebellion false information.
• The Imperial fleet was spread through the galaxy in a public demonstration to make the populace think the rebels were more of a threat than they actually were.
• The Imperial fleet was spread through the galaxy to maintain a uniform presence to pre-empt acts of terrorism, much like a sort of military police force.

Given an explanation which does not require us to dismiss canon, it is preferable to one which does.

In fact, let us consider for a moment as an auxiliary point Mon Mothma's statement: "With the Imperial Fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us, it [the Death Star II] is relatively unprotected." A quick exegesis focuses on the word "vain": if there really are significant rebel forces elsewhere demonstrating, is the Imperial fleet's attempt to engage them in vain?

[Havok]

Your "data" consists of a single paragraph in the novelisation. Cute.

A datum which you refuse to incorporate into your model. Have you changed your canon policy sufficiently away from that of Dr Saxton, which you and I both cited? If so, why do you expect us to use it?

And who gives a shit how many Rebel ships there were at Endor? Even if the novelisation was in error about the ships present and afloat at the rendezvous point at Sullust, that still does not invalidate it's canonical statement that the entirety of the official Rebel civilian and military membership was deployed in the Endor operation. A smaller Rebel fleet constrains the size of the Rebellion even more, increasing its relative irrelevancy. The more irrelevant the Rebellion, the less meaningful citing its existence as a strike against Palpatine's statecraft. A smaller Endor fleet is better for my position, because it proves the biggest coherent opposition to Palpatine's rule was the statistical equivalent of a lunatic shooting up a post office or tossing a nailbomb at the Olympics.

In a word, bullshit. An opposition as small as you now allege would have been zero threat to the Empire (and if it really was that small, yet still proved enough to beat Palpatine, that doesn't speak much to his supposed "genius" that he could get beaten or even seriously inconvenienced by so small an opposition). Yet we have Mon Mothma speaking to the Empire having to spread its navy throughout the galaxy "in a vain attempt to engage us". It follows that there must have been sufficient forces to keep the Imperials out hunting for them, making enough demonstrations at widely spread-out locations to pull task forces out to the far reaches of the galaxy.

There are multiple explanations for this statement which do not require contradicting established canon. Here are a couple:

• Mon Mothma was acting on false information. This is most straightforward, since we known that the Emperor was feeding the rebellion false information.
• The Imperial fleet was spread through the galaxy in a public demonstration to make the populace think the rebels were more of a threat than they actually were.
• The Imperial fleet was spread through the galaxy to maintain a uniform presence to pre-empt acts of terrorism, much like a sort of military police force.

Given an explanation which does not require us to dismiss canon, it is preferable to one which does.

In fact, let us consider for a moment as an auxiliary point Mon Mothma's statement: "With the Imperial Fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us, it [the Death Star II] is relatively unprotected." A quick exegesis focuses on the word "vain": if there really are significant rebel forces elsewhere demonstrating, is the Imperial fleet's attempt to engage them in vain?

Isn't it established in ANH that the Empire is trying to engage the rebels in vain though? Tarkin and Vader can't find them. Even with their figure head captured, the rebels were one step ahead of the Empire. Hell, if it wasn't for Han being an arrogant ass, they STILL wouldn't have found Yavin IV. And you could even argue that THAT was a rebel trap.
In TESB, they only find Hoth with random luck, and if it weren't for Vader, they would have never even gone there. The Empire had to resort to hiring bounty hunters just to get ONE ship of rebels. The rebels just keep escaping them or they just can't ever quite get a bead on them.

[wjs7744]

Isn't it established in ANH that the Empire is trying to engage the rebels in vain though? Tarkin and Vader can't find them. Even with their figure head captured, the rebels were one step ahead of the Empire. Hell, if it wasn't for Han being an arrogant ass, they STILL wouldn't have found Yavin IV. And you could even argue that THAT was a rebel trap.
In TESB, they only find Hoth with random luck, and if it weren't for Vader, they would have never even gone there. The Empire had to resort to hiring bounty hunters just to get ONE ship of rebels. The rebels just keep escaping them or they just can't ever quite get a bead on them.

It's kind of ironic that do demonstrate how vain the Empire's efforts are, you pick two Rebel bases that they destroyed. As for Leia being head of the Rebellion, what gave you that idea? I thought it was made quite clear in all three films that she wasn't. Hoth wasn't found by accident, it was found by probe droids. What, did you think that they launched half a dozen of them and just happened to find the Rebels? It's not as if any of this, even if true, has any impact whatsoever on the topic at hand anyway, we've been drawn off into one of Degan's red herrings. The difficulty of eliminating guerilla fighters has been well known for centuries, and the fact that the Empire eliminated two major Rebel strongholds in as many months in a galaxy of billions of worlds speaks rather well of their military.

[Dooey Jo]

Hoth wasn't found by accident, it was found by probe droids. What, did you think that they launched half a dozen of them and just happened to find the Rebels?

I don't know if you've watched the film recently, but admiral Ozzel specifically states they have thousands of probe droids out searching for the rebels.

It's not as if any of this, even if true, has any impact whatsoever on the topic at hand anyway, we've been drawn off into one of Degan's red herrings. The difficulty of eliminating guerilla fighters has been well known for centuries, and the fact that the Empire eliminated two major Rebel strongholds in as many months in a galaxy of billions of worlds speaks rather well of their military.

What? Months? Try years...

[Illuminatus Primus]

They obviously have more than thousands; such a tactic would have no chance of success otherwise. Not to mention that Ozzel's comment means to impress upon Piett the sheer quantity of droids and therefore the relatively unlikeliness that this one's message is correct.

[Havok]

It's kind of ironic that do demonstrate how vain the Empire's efforts are, you pick two Rebel bases that they destroyed.

Well, I cited 3 bases actually, one was abandoned (Dantooine), and two were successfully defended long enough to evacuate. (Yavin IV and Hoth)

As for Leia being head of the Rebellion, what gave you that idea? I thought it was made quite clear in all three films that she wasn't.

Nothing. I said FIGURE head. Not leader.

Hoth wasn't found by accident, it was found by probe droids. What, did you think that they launched half a dozen of them and just happened to find the Rebels?

That is exactly what happened... "We have THOUSANDS of probe droids searching the galaxy! I want proof not leads" Thousands, not 12. Luck.

It's not as if any of this, even if true, has any impact whatsoever on the topic at hand anyway, we've been drawn off into one of Degan's red herrings. The difficulty of eliminating guerilla fighters has been well known for centuries, and the fact that the Empire eliminated two major Rebel strongholds in as many months in a galaxy of billions of worlds speaks rather well of their military.

I'm not even trying to get in on Degan's side in this. I was just merely commenting that the "vain effort to engage" the rebellion comment made by Mon Mothma holds water. The two bases that the Empire did manage to engage the rebellion at, were found by luck and a smugglers arrogance. (Remember that Leia KNEW they were being tracked and told Han as much and the rebels CHOSE to make a stand against the Empire and the DS. They could have been gone or at least evacuating before the DS arrived.) If it wasn't for these two incidents the Empire might have just been chasing the rebels around until ROTJ or a similar scenario.

[Havok]

They obviously have more than thousands; such a tactic would have no chance of success otherwise. Not to mention that Ozzel's comment means to impress upon Piett the sheer quantity of droids and therefore the relatively unlikeliness that this one's message is correct.

The shooting script actually calls for Ozzel to say millions IIRC. Damn... Even the actors try to minimize.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Let's examine. The Death Star only failed to immolate Yavin IV because of a freak technological flaw and the miracle-feat of Luke Skywalker (there was actually heavy jamming that prevented the accurate use of targeting computers; without the Force or pure chance no one could score the hit; in the end, it almost hardly a real flaw). The Rebels were a dead door-nail, the only major feat of the early war was accomplished by Skywalker. Second, Hoth - Hoth would have been another Imperial victory if Ozzel had brought the fleet out of lightspeed far enough away. Without a lucky break, the Rebels are fucked. And in Endor, the Rebels are fucked without a lucky break from a Ewok distraction and a good stroke of real tactical innovation from Chewie capturing the walker. They are still fucked even without the shield; Thrawn says that the TIEs deployed had the advantage on the core run force, but Palpatine's death wrecked their fighting ability. They Rebels are still fucked without a series of total freak-lucky break killing the Executor throwing the momentum to their end. Even then, they probably might have been fucked if Pelleaon had not illegally ordered a retreat and a large portion of the fleet followed along. The Original Trilogy shows some tiny openings by Imperial arrogance and occasional incompetence, but definitely never enough such that the Rebels had any chance whatsoever without the Skywalkers and a shitload of luck.

The Skywalkers brought down the Empire and Palpatine, not the Rebellion.

Furthermore, its quite possible for their to be tiny opposition which can score disproportionate pain and also not be indicative of systemic mismanagement or an unstable state. Terrorism is a great example. And as said, the only major victories were scored by Skywalkers and luck, not by the Rebels in of themselves.

[Havok]

Let's examine. The Death Star only failed to immolate Yavin IV because of a freak technological flaw and the miracle-feat of Luke Skywalker (there was actually heavy jamming that prevented the accurate use of targeting computers; without the Force or pure chance no one could score the hit; in the end, it almost hardly a real flaw). The Rebels were a dead door-nail, the only major feat of the early war was accomplished by Skywalker. Second, Hoth - Hoth would have been another Imperial victory if Ozzel had brought the fleet out of lightspeed far enough away. Without a lucky break, the Rebels are fucked. And in Endor, the Rebels are fucked without a lucky break from a Ewok distraction and a good stroke of real tactical innovation from Chewie capturing the walker. They are still fucked even without the shield; Thrawn says that the TIEs deployed had the advantage on the core run force, but Palpatine's death wrecked their fighting ability. They Rebels are still fucked without a series of total freak-lucky break killing the Executor throwing the momentum to their end. Even then, they probably might have been fucked if Pelleaon had not illegally ordered a retreat and a large portion of the fleet followed along. The Original Trilogy shows some tiny openings by Imperial arrogance and occasional incompetence, but definitely never enough such that the Rebels had any chance whatsoever without the Skywalkers and a shitload of luck.

The Skywalkers brought down the Empire and Palpatine, not the Rebellion.

Furthermore, its quite possible for their to be tiny opposition which can score disproportionate pain and also not be indicative of systemic mismanagement or an unstable state. Terrorism is a great example. And as said, the only major victories were scored by Skywalkers and luck, not by the Rebels in of themselves.

I agree with all that. Like I said, the Empire just got lucky as well, when it came to the couple of times they found the rebels.

[wjs7744]

I don't know if you've watched the film recently, but admiral Ozzel specifically states they have thousands of probe droids out searching for the rebels.

I know, I was pointing out that they didn't just stumble across them, they went looking for them and they found them. The idea that luck played a part in that requires that they only searched a few worlds, but we certainly know that there were more droids than the half dozen we saw on screen.

What? Months? Try years...

I'm not too sure on that, I think the Battle of Endor was 4ABY, but I thought that more time passed between ANH and TESB than between TESB and RoTJ. That would seem to indicate about a year at most. Although like I said, I'm not too sure about the timeline. Even if it was a couple of years, though, it's still quite an impressive record.

Nothing. I said FIGURE head. Not leader.

Oops, I misread that. Not exactly sure what you meant though, considering the connotations of the term 'figurehead'.

I'm not even trying to get in on Degan's side in this. I was just merely commenting that the "vain effort to engage" the rebellion comment made by Mon Mothma holds water. The two bases that the Empire did manage to engage the rebellion at, were found by luck and a smugglers arrogance. (Remember that Leia KNEW they were being tracked and told Han as much and the rebels CHOSE to make a stand against the Empire and the DS. They could have been gone or at least evacuating before the DS arrived.) If it wasn't for these two incidents the Empire might have just been chasing the rebels around until ROTJ or a similar scenario.

I am not denying that Imperial Rebel-hunting operations in sectors of the galaxy with no Rebels are a pointless endeavor, simply that the Empire's whole campain against the Rebellion was far from in vain. I also don't believe that Hoth was found by luck, or that evacuation was a viable option at Yavin, but those are really other issues.

[Havok]

wjs7744
Even with millions of probe droids searching, there are still thousands of unknown or forgotten worlds the rebels could have been hiding on. And how long would it take a probe droid to survey an entire planet? They may have been using a systematic approach, but they still got lucky. What if the wampa doesn't bum rush Luke, and he sees and destroys the probe droid before it gets a chance to scan the power generators?

[Surlethe]

Isn't it established in ANH that the Empire is trying to engage the rebels in vain though? Tarkin and Vader can't find them. Even with their figure head captured, the rebels were one step ahead of the Empire. Hell, if it wasn't for Han being an arrogant ass, they STILL wouldn't have found Yavin IV. And you could even argue that THAT was a rebel trap.

The point is that just because the Empire is trying to engage the rebels doesn't mean there are rebels there for them to engage, as Mr Degan would like to think.

In TESB, they only find Hoth with random luck, and if it weren't for Vader, they would have never even gone there. The Empire had to resort to hiring bounty hunters just to get ONE ship of rebels. The rebels just keep escaping them or they just can't ever quite get a bead on them.

It's because the rebellion is so small; the Imperial fleet could quite easily be spread throughout the galaxy shadowboxing, trying to locate and engage the rebel gathering, while all the rebels are nonetheless gathered at Sullust.

It strikes me now that the Imperial navy knew the rebels were gathering at Sullust -- Vader asks the Emperor this -- so this indicates more strongly that Mon Mothma is repeating misinformation.