Not a flip-flopper, a dirty Mormon

[Kodiak]

Vanderbilt poll explains why Romney's flip-flopper label sticks; Political scientist says anti-Mormon bias finds cover 1-18-2008

Bias against Mitt Romney’s religion is one of the reasons that the tag “flip-flopper” sticks with the former Massachusetts governor but not his Republican opponents, according to Vanderbilt political scientist John Geer. “There is no question that Romney has changed his positions on some issues, but so have some of the other candidates,” Geer said. “Why does the label stick to Romney but not his opponents? At least some of the answer lies in Romney’s Mormon beliefs.”

Geer and colleagues Brett Benson of Vanderbilt and Jennifer Merolla of Claremont Graduate University designed an Internet survey to assess bias against Mormons, how best to combat it and its potential impact on the nomination process and general election campaign.

“We find that of those who accuse Romney of flip-flopping, many admit it is Romney’s Mormonism and not his flip-flopping that is the real issue,” Benson said. “Our survey shows that 26 percent of those who accuse Romney of flip-flopping also indicate that Mormonism, not flip-flopping, is their problem with Romney.” Benson noted that the pattern is especially strong for conservative Evangelicals. According to the poll, 57 percent of them have a bias against Mormons.

The poll, which was conducted by Polimetrix, included an oversample of Southern Evangelicals that Geer said measured bias with far more precision than previous efforts. The survey shows that 50 percent of conservative Evangelicals evaluate a moderate Christian candidate more positively than a conservative Mormon candidate.

The study’s findings suggest that criticizing Romney for flip-flopping is an effective campaign strategy because it sticks with two different groups: those who are genuinely concerned about Romney’s shifts on certain issues and those who use the label as cover for the fact that they do not want to vote for a Mormon for president.

“As the campaign continues to unfold, these data become increasingly relevant as the Republicans choose a presidential nominee,” Geer said.

Are Americans really unable to come out and say what they really think about Romney? He's been asked at every step about his reaction to the reaction he gets from evangelicals about his faith, and every time he tries to give the straightest answer he can. I think it's interesting that Vanderbilt even thought to do this study in the first place, though I'm not sure of the implications. Do some people who think Obama is "Inexperienced" really mean they don't like blacks? Are people who say Clinton is "too deep into washington" really just not comfortable voting for a woman? As a people, have we become totally unable to say what we mean, or does society simply not allow it for sake of political correctness?

FUCKING DRESS YOUR GODDAMN LINK

[Anguirus]

Interesting. I'm not fond of Romney's Mormonism, but I'm also not fond of McCain's sucking up to fundies, and I only approve of Obama's vague platitudes because I think they will help him get elected in this aggressively religious country.

I find both Romney and McCain to be unapologetic flip-floppers. Romney, however, strikes me as much more of an opportunist, promising jobs in Michigan that he can't deliver, being liberal enough to win in MA, and apologizing for it to gain GOP street cred ever since. He did also lie blatantly about marching with MLK, and his choice to lie doesn't have a damn thing to do with his religion (the reason for it does, however).

So for what it's worth, I'd cut off my hand before I'd vote for Romney, no matter what religion he held.

[Anguirus]

Forgot to add this. I also think that Romney is suffering because of a largely successful campaign by other Repubs to compare him unfavorably to Kerry, "the other New England liberal flip-flopper." Whether that campaign is motivated by his religion I have no idea, but I'm inclined to doubt it,

[Kodiak]

Forgot to add this. I also think that Romney is suffering because of a largely successful campaign by other Repubs to compare him unfavorably to Kerry, "the other New England liberal flip-flopper." Whether that campaign is motivated by his religion I have no idea, but I'm inclined to doubt it,

I agree, they seem to be playing the same-old-record about Romney that they did about Kerry. I can't help but think that part of it might be animosity/uncertainty about Romney since he truly is a "Washington Outsider" and has so-far refused to play their games. I'm interested to see what a giuliani void (not that he took up much space anyhow) and more "hard-nosed" politics does come super-tuesday.

[Knife]

Are Americans really unable to come out and say what they really think about Romney? He's been asked at every step about his reaction to the reaction he gets from evangelicals about his faith, and every time he tries to give the straightest answer he can. I think it's interesting that Vanderbilt even thought to do this study in the first place, though I'm not sure of the implications. Do some people who think Obama is "Inexperienced" really mean they don't like blacks? Are people who say Clinton is "too deep into washington" really just not comfortable voting for a woman? As a people, have we become totally unable to say what we mean, or does society simply not allow it for sake of political correctness?

Honestly I think you have both. You do have quite a few bigots out there who will hate him just because of the crazy cult he's in. But on the other hand, like Kerry before him with the whole 'reporting for duty' bit; Romney stuck his weird ass cult life out there as street cred for those bible thumpers as if that would win them over to his side. Romney wold have probably done a lot better (not that he's doing that bad) if he'd just kept the holy bit at a mininum and pounded the fiscal/business conservative part of his appeal.

[Darth Wong]

The "flip-flopper" label is a joke (people do sometimes change their minds over time; it doesn't mean they're dishonest), but Romney's changes of heart seem more damning than Kerry's changes of heart. Romney has changed his mind on things in such a way that he must be lying, because he now claims that he always felt that abortion was murder, yet his past conduct is totally inconsistent with this claim.

[Keevan_Colton]

Flip flopping is one thing, I rather like the idea of a leader that is big enough to admit when they were wrong about something in the past. It's the lying about it bit that's the real nail in Mr Romney's coffin from my perspective.

Add in the fact that he follows the words of a man with a hat on his face who was a renowned con man, it's almost as bad as the folk who follow the teachings of a shitty sci-fi author...honestly, the angels wouldnt let anyone else read the stuff...that's without even getting into the whole mark of cain bullshit


How fucking gulliable do you have to be to go in for this shit?

I sometimes marvel that as a species we havent wiped each other out yet thanks to our general high regard for bullshit and imaginary friends. In fact, I'd like to take this chance to announce the formation of PAIN, People Against Imaginary Nonsense. If you cant back it up with some kind of empirical evidence then you will be subject to pain...simple enough I think...

[Alyrium Denryle]

I will be honest and up front. For me, the fact that he is mormon is an issue for me. And not just because he takes political stances against my interests based upon his faith (at least in the GOP race he has... what his stances were prior to that I dont give a shit)

I do not want a mormon in office. I do not want someone who thinks that native americans are related to jews despite genetic work to the contrary, I do not want someone in office who thinks that the place of women in the afterlife is to serve their husbands. I dont want someone who believes that the garden of eden was in the midwest or is absolutely gullible enough to think that a long time con artist actually found some sort of message from god, and actually follows the teachings of this man who raped prebuescant girls and stole other men's wives...

Lets forget the little fact that they have this wonderful tendency to create a de-facto theocracy and engage in HUGE levels of nepotism wherever they gain power.

[Molyneux]

You do have quite a few bigots out there who will hate him just because of the crazy cult he's in.

How the fuck does disliking him as a candidate because of his (insane) religion make someone a bigot?

[CaptainChewbacca]

You do have quite a few bigots out there who will hate him just because of the crazy cult he's in.

How the fuck does disliking him as a candidate because of his (insane) religion make someone a bigot?

AHEM

big·ot (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Fact is, Romney is (in my view) far less religious or devout than someone like Huckabee. I know if I had to choose between the two, I'd choose the mormon.

[Karza]

You do have quite a few bigots out there who will hate him just because of the crazy cult he's in.

How the fuck does disliking him as a candidate because of his (insane) religion make someone a bigot?

I think Knife meant some people dislike Romney because they think he's got the wrong sky-pixie, not because his faith marks him out as a lunatic.

[Knife]

You do have quite a few bigots out there who will hate him just because of the crazy cult he's in.

How the fuck does disliking him as a candidate because of his (insane) religion make someone a bigot?

Because on bunch of fundie morons hating another bunch of fundie morons based on subjective bullshit like religion is still bigotry. Huckabee got his big bounce from such asshats.

[Flagg]

He's a flip-flopper and a dirty Mormon.

The flip-flopper label fits this douchebag to a tee. What issue that would get him elected in Massachusetts, yet prevent him from winning the GOP nomination hasn't he flip-flopped on?

The label didn't fit Kerry because he changed his mind on something when it became appropriate to do so based on objective evidence. It was also a fucking farce as Bush flip-flopped on just about every one of his campaign issues.

And how is it bigotry not to vote for someone based on their religious beliefs? Mormons believe in some fucking stupid shit. If you believe in fucking stupid shit, then you're fucking stupid. If you're fucking stupid, then you have no business running a Burger King, let alone holding any public office.

[Surlethe]

And how is it bigotry not to vote for someone based on their religious beliefs? Mormons believe in some fucking stupid shit. If you believe in fucking stupid shit, then you're fucking stupid. If you're fucking stupid, then you have no business running a Burger King, let alone holding any public office.

Who gives a shit if Romney believes in some stupid stuff, as long as it doesn't inform his policies or decision-making?

Edited to change from a general claim to a specific claim.

[Flagg]

And how is it bigotry not to vote for someone based on their religious beliefs? Mormons believe in some fucking stupid shit. If you believe in fucking stupid shit, then you're fucking stupid. If you're fucking stupid, then you have no business running a Burger King, let alone holding any public office.

Who gives a shit if Romney believes in some stupid stuff, as long as it doesn't inform his policies or decision-making?

Edited to change from a general claim to a specific claim.

It clearly does, as he's anti-choice and has said that you can't have freedom without religion.

[Kodiak]

And how is it bigotry not to vote for someone based on their religious beliefs? Mormons believe in some fucking stupid shit. If you believe in fucking stupid shit, then you're fucking stupid. If you're fucking stupid, then you have no business running a Burger King, let alone holding any public office.

Who gives a shit if Romney believes in some stupid stuff, as long as it doesn't inform his policies or decision-making?

Edited to change from a general claim to a specific claim.

My point exactly. That's one of the reasons he's getting blasted about being pro-life/pro-choice; He himself, is pro-life, but as governor had to recognize that enforcing that belief on his pro-choice constituents would be irresponsible. As long as he can make policy and keep his beliefs separate from his presidential mandates, I say it should make a difference.

[Darth Wong]

And how is it bigotry not to vote for someone based on their religious beliefs? Mormons believe in some fucking stupid shit. If you believe in fucking stupid shit, then you're fucking stupid. If you're fucking stupid, then you have no business running a Burger King, let alone holding any public office.

Who gives a shit if Romney believes in some stupid stuff, as long as it doesn't inform his policies or decision-making?

I imagine the gay people who he doesn't want to have equal rights would care, because those beliefs DO seem to influence his policies. It's just that they only influence his policies in a way that he thinks will gain him political points.

And more to the point, Romney himself seems to care, because he keeps mentioning God in his speeches.

[Darth Wong]

My point exactly. That's one of the reasons he's getting blasted about being pro-life/pro-choice; He himself, is pro-life, but as governor had to recognize that enforcing that belief on his pro-choice constituents would be irresponsible. As long as he can make policy and keep his beliefs separate from his presidential mandates, I say it should make a difference.

So where the fuck does he get off making factual statements about a one-day old fetus being a person, then? The fact is that if he honestly thinks that's true, then he has an obligation to protect those lives. He's got to be lying one way or another. Either he recognizes that this "life begins at conception" nonsense is nothing more than a fairy-tale belief that he chooses to have and should not actually state as fact, or he believes it's actual fact and he does nothing because he doesn't think that he has the right to stop people from murdering babies.

[Flagg]

And how is it bigotry not to vote for someone based on their religious beliefs? Mormons believe in some fucking stupid shit. If you believe in fucking stupid shit, then you're fucking stupid. If you're fucking stupid, then you have no business running a Burger King, let alone holding any public office.

Who gives a shit if Romney believes in some stupid stuff, as long as it doesn't inform his policies or decision-making?

Edited to change from a general claim to a specific claim.

My point exactly. That's one of the reasons he's getting blasted about being pro-life/pro-choice; He himself, is pro-life, but as governor had to recognize that enforcing that belief on his pro-choice constituents would be irresponsible. As long as he can make policy and keep his beliefs separate from his presidential mandates, I say it should make a difference.

So he's willing to sacrifice his personal beliefs for political expediency? How very Mormon of him.