Dune questions

[Ghost Rider]

A couple points the movie never touched upon.

1. Leto was not just a Duke but a man in command of an army nearly as good as the Sardukar, just not as large. They used the Weirding devices to sorta convey this message.

I remember a mention that a small group in Duke Leto's army was a touch better than the Sardukar, with the rest very close to them or just behind. Just that threat was enough for the emperor to want to destroy his house, because the Sardukar were supposed to be unmatched, totally elite, and having even a small army being able to challenge that would destroy the aura they had.

I know it was in the novel, and especially the latter novels note the Sardukar had literally been running on mystique more then actual ability.

As for the movie, I cannot for the life of me remember was the small army noted in the original or was it only shown in the director's cut.

[Chris OFarrell]

More critical then the 'small army' issue was that the Emperor realized that the Duke was in a position, through the Freeman, to change it from a small elite army, to a BIG elite army that would match his forces. Add to that the fact that in this scenario he would OWN the spice AND the Landsrad loved him and suddenly the Emperor saw 'Bad Things'.

The Freeman didn't really have advanced technology for a long time, at least until the senior Kynes hooked up with them and they used his position to 'infiltrate the system'. I mean Mulla pistols are just SPRING loaded pistols, glorified crossbows. It was Paul who brought them SAM's and all the other nice toys, plus modern military thinking, which had the Freeman steadily bringing Spice Production to a halt.

The funny thing is that the Baron didn't realize WHY the Emperor had the Atredies wiped out and the Strategic Threat of the Freeman. He just thought Shaddam was concerned about how popular the Duke was.

The Barons plan was to have Raban 'squeeze' the population -he didn't have a clue about the scale of the Freeman population either, just seeing the few major cities and towns as the population with a handful of Freeman 'bandits'- until they utterly hated him. Then Feyed would head on over, kill Raban and show a far more 'gentle' side, winning the populations heats and minds.

Then when the Baron found out about the true extent of the Freeman, he wanted to combine the plan to win the desert Freeman's trust as well.

Of course, it was an utterly worthless plan as the hate the Freeman had for the Harkonens was just amazing even WITHOUT Paul on planet. And WITH him on planet as their leader, well...

And as long as Paul controlled the spice, he was untouchable. Without Spice or a willingness to use computer technology, FTL travel is impossible. Without spice, the elite of the Empire all die. Without spice, the economy collapses even IF FTL travel can somehow be maintained. Without Spice, the Witches are fraked...

So yeah.

[Uraniun235]

Fremen. FREMEN. F-R-E-M-E-N.

As for the movie, I cannot for the life of me remember was the small army noted in the original or was it only shown in the director's cut.

I think they only noted that the new "weirding modules" would give Leto's forces a significant edge in any conflict. Part of Yueh's betrayal in the movie was the destruction of the weirding modules shortly before the Sardaukar assault.

[Typhonis 1]

One other thing not shown in the movie was the SCALE of the Harkonen assault. They had overwhelming numbers and Imperial Sadukar backing them up. Baron Harkonme spent enough oney that iot would take Rabban 50 years to pay him back using the spice export from Arrakis.


Thufur was commenting on the numbers in the book mentioning that for even an outpost they had droped a full legion on it.

[Bounty]

Thufur was commenting on the numbers in the book mentioning that for even an outpost they had droped a full legion on it.

Is that a Roman-style legion, 5-6000 men? And that's enough to defeat a force that can supposedly challenge the Emperor? Even with their surprise advantage, that sounds a bit... weak

[Ghost Rider]

Thufur was commenting on the numbers in the book mentioning that for even an outpost they had droped a full legion on it.

Is that a Roman-style legion, 5-6000 men? And that's enough to defeat a force that can supposedly challenge the Emperor? Even with their surprise advantage, that sounds a bit... weak

Sadly the only numbers we have any idea of is that a planet of 10 million Fremen is apparently a galactic army. The Duneverse level of forces is immensely small.

[Typhonis 1]

in the back of the book Herbert had dictionary. He stated that a standard legion was 50,000 men.

[Imperial Overlord]

Sadly the only numbers we have any idea of is that a planet of 10 million Fremen is apparently a galactic army. The Duneverse level of forces is immensely small.

Not to mention that standard combat is knife fighting and kung-fu.

[Ghost Rider]

Sadly the only numbers we have any idea of is that a planet of 10 million Fremen is apparently a galactic army. The Duneverse level of forces is immensely small.

Not to mention that standard combat is knife fighting and kung-fu.

Oy jeebus, yes. I truly despise that particular. I can accept that if all that hokey training makes good for something like wanked out samurai nonsense but it's literally standard training for the militaries throughout as something more important then a fucking gun.

They make literally moments of the Sardukar, Fremen, Feyd, Paul, and everyone else is good with a knife as a military frontline weapon.

[Stravo]

To be fair to Herbert on why knife fighting and martial artist like fighting was so prevalent let's remember that personal shields had been in use for generations and these shields made people completely invulnerable to conventional weapons and if you used LAS weapons on shielded people they went up like little baby nukes so the technology forced a return to melee combat ("the slow blade penetrates the shield") etc. Shields did not play a big part in Dune because the setting made shields useless (they attract the worm and that's when certain atmospheric effects of the deep desert let them work, etc) so their effect on warfare was only inferred by the fighting styles used.

Everyone who was anyone had their own personal force shield belt and so just using gunpowder or explosive weapons was unheard of because they were rendered useless by the extensive use of shields and energy weapons blew you and the target up as well as a good chunk of real estate. Remember how Baron HArkonen made a big deal that he was using artillery in his assault on the Atreides on Arrakis, it had been virtually unheard of before that due to the use of shields.

Think of it this way, a form of Kevlar is created that makes people virtually immune to bullets but vulnerable to knife and stabbing wounds. You see a return of swords and bayonets in combat with the gun rarely used at all. It's the same sort of effect.

Plausible? I certainly suspended belief enough to enjoy the setting and the books. I give him credit for at least he trying to justify the use of melee weapons in his advanced sci fi universe instead of making it so by writer fiat.

[Ghost Rider]

To be fair to Herbert on why knife fighting and martial artist like fighting was so prevalent let's remember that personal shields had been in use for generations and these shields made people completely invulnerable to conventional weapons and if you used LAS weapons on shielded people they went up like little baby nukes so the technology forced a return to melee combat ("the slow blade penetrates the shield") etc. Shields did not play a big part in Dune because the setting made shields useless (they attract the worm and that's when certain atmospheric effects of the deep desert let them work, etc) so their effect on warfare was only inferred by the fighting styles used.

Everyone who was anyone had their own personal force shield belt and so just using gunpowder or explosive weapons was unheard of because they were rendered useless by the extensive use of shields and energy weapons blew you and the target up as well as a good chunk of real estate. Remember how Baron HArkonen made a big deal that he was using artillery in his assault on the Atreides on Arrakis, it had been virtually unheard of before that due to the use of shields.

Think of it this way, a form of Kevlar is created that makes people virtually immune to bullets but vulnerable to knife and stabbing wounds. You see a return of swords and bayonets in combat with the gun rarely used at all. It's the same sort of effect.

Plausible? I certainly suspended belief enough to enjoy the setting and the books. I give him credit for at least he trying to justify the use of melee weapons in his advanced sci fi universe instead of making it so by writer fiat.

While I disliked the whole shield = supreme defense he used, what I did enjoy is how little he gave to military and armies. He never made it the crux of the story but instead it was something to move the characters along. His vision of dukes, kings, and such would use armies to succeed others when political gambling failed. Take for instance the Sardukar. As a military it's filled with a number of holes, but they are there to go "This is why the Emperor is supreme.". He has no notions of demonstrating as a modern force, just it's the best in the Duneverse.

In that Herbert did succeed because he only gave very vague notions of anything military beyond a couple guns, maybe a notion of heavier weapons in the form of atomics and finally...yes starships can rain death if need be. My dislike of his military and galactic forces is something that more or less pops up because of how small they were, but beyond that...he crafted a story around politics with a military plot in the very far background.

That part I do and still enjoy of the books.

[Imperial Overlord]

Dune's strength is clearly the plotting and the politics. The "shields make me invulnerable to ranged attack" idea has been dissected before, I won't bother doing it again. His military is ludicrous and not spending much time on it was a good decision. Shields and a universe with suicide conditioning and lasguns that make shields go nukey don't mix (even without the CoM turning insides to jelly bit). Even as a teenager I was wondering why the Harkonnens didn't just equip a suicide agent with a lasgun and blow up the Atreides house shield.

[Nephtys]

I remember something about a Lasgun on a timing mechanism aimed at the shield. I forgot what context it was in, but I think it was ruled out because such was particularly watched for by interstellar convention. Sorta lame, considering how easy it would be to make 'accidents' happen.

Of course, when the military part of dune became more prominent (the HORRIBLE Brian Herbert/KJA books), everything got so much worse. We don't need to hear about battleships shooting cannonballs at each other, or giant robots fighting like the T-1000 or that garbage...

[Ghost Rider]

I remember something about a Lasgun on a timing mechanism aimed at the shield. I forgot what context it was in, but I think it was ruled out because such was particularly watched for by interstellar convention. Sorta lame, considering how easy it would be to make 'accidents' happen.

If I remember that was when Duncan used it as a trap against some Sardukar in the first Dune book. The real problem is that is appears to be an atomic explosion, and thus is skirting the whole Great Convention rules.

Of course, when the military part of dune became more prominent (the HORRIBLE Brian Herbert/KJA books), everything got so much worse. We don't need to hear about battleships shooting cannonballs at each other, or giant robots fighting like the T-1000 or that garbage...

Oy, I do remember reading...I think it was Hosue Atredies? at some grocery store because I wondered how bad, and it made me laugh truly how bad. Honestly the fact that series has fans makes me realize people will indeed buy anything.

[Stravo]

By no means do I think Dune's technical aspects should be taken as very well done or accurate but for me it gave me a comfortable enough cushion for my SOD on the setting. Like GR what I found most fascinating about the books is the character studies and political infighting and intrigue. The setting added that extra flavor that just made the whole story hum.

One of those aspects that I found fascinating was the treatment of religion and the whole human experience and how it can be easily tooled to manipulate the masses. For my young prepubescent mind reading it was one of those triggers to make me question that good old religious indoctrination. And as a parallel to oil and the current world well its been more than visionary in some of its portrayals.

[Sea Skimmer]

Think of it this way, a form of Kevlar is created that makes people virtually immune to bullets but vulnerable to knife and stabbing wounds. You see a return of swords and bayonets in combat with the gun rarely used at all. It's the same sort of effect.

Except if that actually happened we’d think up a billion and a half ways of creating mechanized stabbing and battering weapons and have them in production within the week. Heck just hitting people with an offroad truck fitted with an array of razor blades would work great. Meanwhile for the infantry the ultimate weapon would not then be fucking knifes, but rather a good long pike which lets you do the exact same thing from 15ft away. A square of pikemen, the dominate weapon in Europe for some time, would be more or less invincible.

Plausible? I certainly suspended belief enough to enjoy the setting and the books. I give him credit for at least he trying to justify the use of melee weapons in his advanced sci fi universe instead of making it so by writer fiat.

He should have limited the knife nonsense to personal combat between nobles; all sorts of stupid traditions are passed down by nobility. For actually fighting wars it just all amounts to a huge pile of stupid which was probably obvious to him even when he wrote it.

[Bounty]

I assume the knife-fighting armies are a book thing? In the movie, the battles are WWI-style "charge with rifles" stuff. I didn't see any personal shields on the soldiers, or even the officers, just on the noblemen.

[Uraniun235]

Yeah, Lynch went with more conventional "dudes with pew-pew guns" in part because he didn't want it to turn out a kung-fu movie.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Specifically they thought depicting the Weirding Way how it was described with the book wouldn't look good on screen, that it would end up like a phony sped-up kung fu fight.

Both of the mini-series ended up handling it fine, but they couldn't really pull stuff like that off back in 1984.

"My name is a killing word."

[Axiomatic]

I thought that the knives were used instead of pikes because you needed REALLY fine control of the blade. I mean, you couldn't just stab a guy with your knife, because the shield's definition of "too fast" is really damn wide. You could defeat a squad of pikemen just by running into their pikes and they'd probably have to run backwards if they wanted the speed difference to be slow enough for their pikes to penetrate your shield.

[Lord Woodlouse]

I thought that the knives were used instead of pikes because you needed REALLY fine control of the blade. I mean, you couldn't just stab a guy with your knife, because the shield's definition of "too fast" is really damn wide. You could defeat a squad of pikemen just by running into their pikes and they'd probably have to run backwards if they wanted the speed difference to be slow enough for their pikes to penetrate your shield.

Quite so. It's not just about the speed of penetration, it's the speed they come at you to defend themselves. Formations would be pretty impractical for that mode of fighting, I would imagine. To devise an advanced weapon to fight that shield you'd probably need some advanced computers, which they're all itchy about in the Duneverse.

[Steel]

Ok how about this then.

The shiled it solid when hit by an object travelling at "high" speed.

Therefore if you throw something at someone that is designed to latch on and then has an appendage to stab slowly through the shield, as now that the relative velocity issue is fixed that can be done. If the shield does something funny when you try to stick to it, just make the device big enough to encircle the torso, so theres a robotic bear hug going on.

Think something like a robotic facehugger, except with a knife instade of a facefucking tentacle.

Even a bear trap with a slow penetrating clockwork powered blade could be an effective weapon! No need for any computers in the setup either.

[Il Saggiatore]

The shiled it solid when hit by an object travelling at "high" speed.

Therefore if you throw something at someone that is designed to latch on and then has an appendage to stab slowly through the shield, as now that the relative velocity issue is fixed that can be done.

In the movie Duncan was killed by a special bullet: when it got stuck in the shield, it started drilling its way through it until it hit Duncan in the forehead.

[Mayabird]

I thought that the knives were used instead of pikes because you needed REALLY fine control of the blade. I mean, you couldn't just stab a guy with your knife, because the shield's definition of "too fast" is really damn wide. You could defeat a squad of pikemen just by running into their pikes and they'd probably have to run backwards if they wanted the speed difference to be slow enough for their pikes to penetrate your shield.

Quite so. It's not just about the speed of penetration, it's the speed they come at you to defend themselves. Formations would be pretty impractical for that mode of fighting, I would imagine. To devise an advanced weapon to fight that shield you'd probably need some advanced computers, which they're all itchy about in the Duneverse.

There was a scene in the book where Paul was dueling with a Fremen boy. Because Paul is so used to fighting against opponents with a shield, he's just the slightest bit too slow to make a killing move on several occasions because that's what he would have had to do to penetrate the shield. His mother notes that as she watches the battle.

Basically, the shields are designed by the author in such a way that only knife and sword fighting works against them, but only in certain ways. Does it make sense? Not really. That's just the way it's written.

[Chris OFarrell]

I thought that the knives were used instead of pikes because you needed REALLY fine control of the blade. I mean, you couldn't just stab a guy with your knife, because the shield's definition of "too fast" is really damn wide. You could defeat a squad of pikemen just by running into their pikes and they'd probably have to run backwards if they wanted the speed difference to be slow enough for their pikes to penetrate your shield.

Quite so. It's not just about the speed of penetration, it's the speed they come at you to defend themselves. Formations would be pretty impractical for that mode of fighting, I would imagine. To devise an advanced weapon to fight that shield you'd probably need some advanced computers, which they're all itchy about in the Duneverse.

There was a scene in the book where Paul was dueling with a Fremen boy. Because Paul is so used to fighting against opponents with a shield, he's just the slightest bit too slow to make a killing move on several occasions because that's what he would have had to do to penetrate the shield. His mother notes that as she watches the battle.

Basically, the shields are designed by the author in such a way that only knife and sword fighting works against them, but only in certain ways. Does it make sense? Not really. That's just the way it's written.

Jamis wasn't a boy, he was a full blown Freman warrior

That said, Paul fought with a great deal of shield training 'inbuilt' into his reactions, which in the way he dodged meant he was moving at an angle that would have a shield deflecting the blow. His offensive strikes also were slow enough because of the necessity of punching through a shield that he continually missed chance after chance after chance when he had him at his mercy.

It doesn't really make much sense to me, as if a Freman could dodge away from the slow blade time after time, how would two shielded fighters manage to attack each other then?