Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

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Post by Setzer »

Stuart wrote:
Setzer wrote:Where is the money for Russia's industrial buildup coming from? All the news I hear is about how pissy things are economically, though I probably don't have accurate info.
Print it, just like the United States and the rest of the world is doing. Boeing need a check for the F-22s they are delivering? Easy, write one and give it to them. This is a war economy; print money as and when needed, prevent inflation by strict wage and price controls and wait with grim resignation for the post-war ecomomic disaster. To give you some measure, the economic catastrophe that was enveloping the United States in 1946-50 was shaping up to be worse than the Great Depression; we got out of it by the skin of our teeth (and the Korean War).
I see... That's gonna be rough, no doubt. Still, survival is worth devaluing the dollar.

IIRC, Churchill was hoping for some kind of extended lend lease after WW2 was over, and I know Britain was kinda pinched economically for some time afterwards.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I very much look forward to the Siege of Dis. An old-testament style walled city, multilevel stone buildings and all, against massed artillery and airstrikes. Its gonna be like Fallujah BEFORE we started being nice.

Lieutenant: General! The heavy infantry has breached the main gates of the city!
General: I wonder when the last time was a man said that to a commanding officer...

Alternatively...
"You know what? I'm getting goddamn SICK AND TIRED OF THE NAPALM SMELL HERE!" :P
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

That NOS Guy wrote:Stuart, what about the sheer mental health issues here? I mean most people being tortured for centuries, if not millenia, have to be jibbering wrecks or mutes at this point.

Assuming humanity does eventually seize hell, I would assume having to rehabilite billions would be a centuries long task. Is this a problem you've looked at?
The biochemistry of the new bodies may be totally different, since the purpose of Hell is to torture people forever. Or, to put it bluntly, the neural pathways of people in hell may be much less "plastic", or able to learn. They're immortal, but they have much more difficulty absorbing new ideas than normal people. The side-effect of this is that it likely preserves their personality even in situations of extreme torture. So, they may all actually be broadly mentally intact. Now, horrible traumatic experiences will render them broadly dysfunctional, but not completely jibbering wrecks or mutes if such is the case.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

I'd think we hit the rest of the Demon world with nukes to totally destroy it, and as for Dis, lay a line of airbursts along one side where the prevailing winds will carry the fallout away from Hell. "Breach the shield wall with atomics!" to quote Dune.
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In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
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Post by Aranfan »

Hi, I registered to comment on this story. It's great, but I'm wondering what the Jew's response to the Message was. I mean, we've been keeping our end of the bargain for how many thousands of years? And then God reneges? I know I'd be pissed.


Also, I'm wondering what the followers of the other major religions think of the Message.
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Post by That NOS Guy »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: The biochemistry of the new bodies may be totally different, since the purpose of Hell is to torture people forever. Or, to put it bluntly, the neural pathways of people in hell may be much less "plastic", or able to learn. They're immortal, but they have much more difficulty absorbing new ideas than normal people. The side-effect of this is that it likely preserves their personality even in situations of extreme torture. So, they may all actually be broadly mentally intact. Now, horrible traumatic experiences will render them broadly dysfunctional, but not completely jibbering wrecks or mutes if such is the case.
That's certaintly one way to get around taking over the largest insane aslyum in all of creation. Excuse me if I'm reading this incorrectly, but wouldn't having billions of people who are effectively learning impaired and socially dysfunctional be yet another massive social problem in and of itself?
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

That NOS Guy wrote:
That's certaintly one way to get around taking over the largest insane aslyum in all of creation. Excuse me if I'm reading this incorrectly, but wouldn't having billions of people who are effectively learning impaired and socially dysfunctional be yet another massive social problem in and of itself?
They're not learning impaired so much as highly limited in their adaptability. In short, Jade, should she survive to escape, may go on to a perfectly excellent career as a civilian helicopter pilot and function as a normal part of our society--but she'd be completely unable to, say, go back to a university and get a degree in biology.

Now, there's one obvious way around this--cybernetics. We're at a point where we can get brains to talk to computers already. The cure for that kind of brain structure would be cybernetic implants which can engage in "flash learning" of concepts. Then the killed and rescued soldiers of our army would be able to change careers like normal people simply by saving up enough money to get the appropriate uploads.
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Post by Sidewinder »

I wonder: is reincarnation a possibility in the story's universe? Will the reincarnation of Vlad Dracula (Vlad the Impaler) be able to provide intel on the geography of Hell, etc.?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by GuppyShark »

"I can say, and I am responsible for what I am saying, that they have started to commit suicide under the walls of Dis. We will encourage them to commit more suicides quickly."
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

That NOS Guy wrote:That's certaintly one way to get around taking over the largest insane aslyum in all of creation. Excuse me if I'm reading this incorrectly, but wouldn't having billions of people who are effectively learning impaired and socially dysfunctional be yet another massive social problem in and of itself?
Not as much. Remember, they're already dead, so they don't need food, water, or healthcare to keep themselves going. I imagine rehabilitation will take time, but once we've conquered hell we have all of eternity to fix them.
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Post by Beowulf »

Darth Smiley wrote:Perhaps, but remember that you risk giving the demons weapons while you are at it. Not a chance I'd be willing to take.
Weapons require training. Which demons will have to make up on the fly. Also, the vast majority of demons appear to be larger than humans, which means they probably couldn't get their fingers into the trigger guard to accurately fire them. Lastly, even hundreds of thousands of rifles in the hands of the demons won't really change the advantage that humans have.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Sidewinder wrote:I wonder: is reincarnation a possibility in the story's universe? Will the reincarnation of Vlad Dracula (Vlad the Impaler) be able to provide intel on the geography of Hell, etc.?
Everyone is reincarnated, in Hell.

My question is if psychers can open portals into hell. I had a roommate (Craziest person you could imagine--I should tell you stories about her, Stu. She was also transexual and simply weird. If you want a semi-stable person in regular contact with Hell, call her kitten, have her come from the Shenandoah valley in Virginia, and she weighs about 95lbs soaking wet at 5'5" and has blonde hair dyed red) who was probably schizophrenic but borderline enough that she could work hard at a job and could pay the rent on time (I'd gone through a string of bad roommates back in those days, and my instincts told me that however weird she was, kitten would do that. And she did, too, which was all I cared about).

Anyhow, she claimed to be regular contact with Hell, and described that "the best place in Hell is sort of like a wrecked inner city where it's 30 F outside and frosty and everyone is standing around a burning oil drum for warmth, eating cheeseburgers they found in trashcans". She was intensely afraid of mirrors at night, saying they showed that she had no soul. But she had developed a highly functional world-order, such that her last psychiatrist had said she was the "most functional lunatic I've ever tried to help". She'd probably just walk into the Randi centre unannounced and offer to help.

Anyway, she claimed that she could talk with Hell, of course, and if you can communication, you can almost certainly open portals as well. Certainly people claim to be able to summon creatures for Hell, and kitten loved summoning. So if anyone is able to do it, if schizo's really are in contact with Hell, she probably could. Drag demons out for interrogation, or even allow, say, insertion of SEAL teams.... (I would like to see the look on a SEAL commander's face when he's told he needs to prep one of his teams for being teleported to Hell by a schizophrenic tranny).
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Quick question: Who voted against declaring war on hell? Was it a certain congresswoman from San Francisco?
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Post by Stuart »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:My question is if psychers can open portals into hell. I had a roommate (Craziest person you could imagine--I should tell you stories about her, Stu. She was also transexual and simply weird. If you want a semi-stable person in regular contact with Hell, call her kitten, have her come from the Shenandoah valley in Virginia, and she weighs about 95lbs soaking wet at 5'5" and has blonde hair dyed red) who was probably schizophrenic but borderline enough that she could work hard at a job and could pay the rent on time (I'd gone through a string of bad roommates back in those days, and my instincts told me that however weird she was, kitten would do that. And she did, too, which was all I cared about).
Your Grace, those stories I would like to hear. The whole portal business is quite complex but I will say that its much easier to open portals downwards (with the energy gradient) than upwards (against the energy gradient) which is also why its much harder for fell to close a portal than open one. Also, the energy required to open or close a portal is directly proportional to the cube of the area of said portal - which makes a big portal very hard indeed to close.
(I would like to see the look on a SEAL commander's face when he's told he needs to prep one of his teams for being teleported to Hell by a schizophrenic tranny).
Now that line is a real inspiration........
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Though I already emailed you about it, Stuart, I'd be happy to write a few scenes about the American Military program dedicated to getting our forces INTO hell. 8)

The Department of Intelligence and Military Operations (Netherworld), or DIMO(N) would be a fun place to take a closer look at.
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Post by Kodiak »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Though I already emailed you about it, Stuart, I'd be happy to write a few scenes about the American Military program dedicated to getting our forces INTO hell. 8)

The Department of Intelligence and Military Operations (Netherworld), or DIMO(N) would be a fun place to take a closer look at.
Sounds like the "Bureau of Paranormal Research" in Hellboy, but I like the idea. Sounds like a good place to get our "special" resources together. 1 part think-tank, 2 parts awesome.
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Post by Sean Mulligan »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Quick question: Who voted against declaring war on hell? Was it a certain congresswoman from San Francisco?
What makes you think she would oppose the war/ She hasn't done anything to end the war in Iraq. Besides, I think it was a senator who voted no.
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Post by Kodiak »

Sean Mulligan wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Quick question: Who voted against declaring war on hell? Was it a certain congresswoman from San Francisco?
What makes you think she would oppose the war/ She hasn't done anything to end the war in Iraq. Besides, I think it was a senator who voted no.
Yeah, I figured it was a certain Senator from New York. Someone who would sympathize with Fiends from Hell
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Well, I guess that ended her primary run early, then.
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Post by Starglider »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: They're not learning impaired so much as highly limited in their adaptability. In short, Jade, should she survive to escape, may go on to a perfectly excellent career as a civilian helicopter pilot and function as a normal part of our society--but she'd be completely unable to, say, go back to a university and get a degree in biology.
If you completely removed neural plasticity people in hell would have no long term memory at all. That's actually a good idea from the demon's point of view; every torture would be fresh, they'd never go insane but they'd never become acclimatised to it either, because every 10 minutes would seem like the first 10 minutes since you arrived. This would be very effective at preventing escapees doing anything but wander about in a daze too.

Clearly the demons haven't done this though, presumably because they lack the capability. The other extreme is fixing the patterns that were there when the person entered hell but otherwise leaving plasticity. That would mean everyone can remember their final years on earth (and skills from that time) perfectly, and keep mostly the same personality for millenia. However their ability to remember what happened in hell 50 years ago would only be as good as a 70-year old human's ability to remember things that happened when they were 20. Of course if they've been tortured the whole time it'll all blur together anyway.

I like this option. It's simple, it makes encountering historical figures fun, it saddles the earth humans with a slightly less severe care problem. Locking down neurons such that they can remember what happened yesterday but not learn new skills or go insane is rather more complicated neurologically, and if the demons had that level of finesse you have to wonder why they didn't just block long term memory writes altogether.
Now, there's one obvious way around this--cybernetics. We're at a point where we can get brains to talk to computers already. The cure for that kind of brain structure would be cybernetic implants which can engage in "flash learning" of concepts. Then the killed and rescued soldiers of our army would be able to change careers like normal people simply by saving up enough money to get the appropriate uploads.
That's a very advanced application, much harder than simply reading out and inserting memories which is already much harder than exporting and importing sensory streams. Frankly we'd have uploading and all manner of other transhumanist goodies well before we had this. I very much doubt it's going to be relevant within the timeframe covered by the story.
I'd think we hit the rest of the Demon world with nukes to totally destroy it, and as for Dis, lay a line of airbursts along one side where the prevailing winds will carry the fallout away from Hell. "Breach the shield wall with atomics!" to quote Dune.
Is complete genocide actually necessary or justifiable here? We don't know if all the demons are inherently evil or just indoctrinated by an evil regieme (though it's true that many of them may be bioengineered to have an unpleasant outlook). There have been past human civilisations which would cheerfully do the same to creatures they could rationalise as nonpersons, inferior beings. Nuking Dis is probably reasonable, but is exterminating all life on the plane really justifiable given the minimal threat the demon remenants are likely to present at that point?

Furthermore we don't know if Satan actually has complete domination of this realm. Clearly he controls Hell itself, its surroundings and its spiritual-energy-supplies. But we don't know how big the overall plane or planet (it's not currently clear if this is a planet or not) is. There could be rebel communities existing far from hell, too much trouble to conquer due to distance, concealment or even defences. Whether they're morally any better is unknown, but even if they aren't they might be worth allying with in the short term.

Futhermore we know Hell has a peer of sorts - Heaven - we don't know if they're different locations in the same kind of space or in different 'planes' altogether, but there could potentially be more of the same 'nations' that just haven't interacted with humanity yet. If that's true to the total destruction of the demons by weapons of unprecedented power could start drawing even more attention to humanity, probably of the wrong sort.
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Though I already emailed you about it, Stuart, I'd be happy to write a few scenes about the American Military program dedicated to getting our forces INTO hell.
Damn, I wish this had started six months back when I had plenty of free time. As it is I'm feeling guilty enough checking this thread a few times a day.
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Post by MKSheppard »

We’ve issued a conditional ultimatum to Heaven as well. Unless they open the gates and surrender those who closed them for trial within 72 hours, a state of war will exist there as well.
Why do I have this mental image from "Enemy Ace: War in Heaven"

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The guy saying it is Hans von Hammer, a comic analogue of the Red Baron; who survived to fly in WWII, albeit as a much older leader.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Starglider wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote: They're not learning impaired so much as highly limited in their adaptability. In short, Jade, should she survive to escape, may go on to a perfectly excellent career as a civilian helicopter pilot and function as a normal part of our society--but she'd be completely unable to, say, go back to a university and get a degree in biology.
If you completely removed neural plasticity people in hell would have no long term memory at all. That's actually a good idea from the demon's point of view; every torture would be fresh, they'd never go insane but they'd never become acclimatised to it either, because every 10 minutes would seem like the first 10 minutes since you arrived. This would be very effective at preventing escapees doing anything but wander about in a daze too.

Clearly the demons haven't done this though, presumably because they lack the capability. The other extreme is fixing the patterns that were there when the person entered hell but otherwise leaving plasticity. That would mean everyone can remember their final years on earth (and skills from that time) perfectly, and keep mostly the same personality for millenia. However their ability to remember what happened in hell 50 years ago would only be as good as a 70-year old human's ability to remember things that happened when they were 20. Of course if they've been tortured the whole time it'll all blur together anyway.

I like this option. It's simple, it makes encountering historical figures fun, it saddles the earth humans with a slightly less severe care problem. Locking down neurons such that they can remember what happened yesterday but not learn new skills or go insane is rather more complicated neurologically, and if the demons had that level of finesse you have to wonder why they didn't just block long term memory writes altogether.
Now, there's one obvious way around this--cybernetics. We're at a point where we can get brains to talk to computers already. The cure for that kind of brain structure would be cybernetic implants which can engage in "flash learning" of concepts. Then the killed and rescued soldiers of our army would be able to change careers like normal people simply by saving up enough money to get the appropriate uploads.
That's a very advanced application, much harder than simply reading out and inserting memories which is already much harder than exporting and importing sensory streams. Frankly we'd have uploading and all manner of other transhumanist goodies well before we had this. I very much doubt it's going to be relevant within the timeframe covered by the story.
I'd think we hit the rest of the Demon world with nukes to totally destroy it, and as for Dis, lay a line of airbursts along one side where the prevailing winds will carry the fallout away from Hell. "Breach the shield wall with atomics!" to quote Dune.
Is complete genocide actually necessary or justifiable here? We don't know if all the demons are inherently evil or just indoctrinated by an evil regieme (though it's true that many of them may be bioengineered to have an unpleasant outlook). There have been past human civilisations which would cheerfully do the same to creatures they could rationalise as nonpersons, inferior beings. Nuking Dis is probably reasonable, but is exterminating all life on the plane really justifiable given the minimal threat the demon remenants are likely to present at that point?

Furthermore we don't know if Satan actually has complete domination of this realm. Clearly he controls Hell itself, its surroundings and its spiritual-energy-supplies. But we don't know how big the overall plane or planet (it's not currently clear if this is a planet or not) is. There could be rebel communities existing far from hell, too much trouble to conquer due to distance, concealment or even defences. Whether they're morally any better is unknown, but even if they aren't they might be worth allying with in the short term.

Futhermore we know Hell has a peer of sorts - Heaven - we don't know if they're different locations in the same kind of space or in different 'planes' altogether, but there could potentially be more of the same 'nations' that just haven't interacted with humanity yet. If that's true to the total destruction of the demons by weapons of unprecedented power could start drawing even more attention to humanity, probably of the wrong sort.
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Though I already emailed you about it, Stuart, I'd be happy to write a few scenes about the American Military program dedicated to getting our forces INTO hell.
Damn, I wish this had started six months back when I had plenty of free time. As it is I'm feeling guilty enough checking this thread a few times a day.

I meant a total laydown with all the nukes we can bring to bear, probably half the world arsenals, which would not be a genocide. Also, probably at least 75% of Dis would be left intact for safety reasons. And so a government is left to surrender to us.
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Post by Starglider »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: I meant a total laydown with all the nukes we can bring to bear, probably half the world arsenals, which would not be a genocide.
This isn't an industrial nation state. There isn't going to be much in the way of targets out there other than population centres (which may or may not be highly dispersed). On the plus side (for the demons) they're probably made out of basalt, built to last for millenia and relatively hard against airblast compared to human buildings (primitive and modern). I would not be surprised if the demons were a lot more resistant to radiation than humans (though perhaps not as resistant as the hell-reincarnated humans are).

Regardless, I read 'totally destroy' as 'nuke everywhere we can see things moving and keep nuking them until nothing moves any more'. This is OTT and probably morally indefensible even for hellspawn, so I'm glad you're not advocating that.
And so a government is left to surrender to us.
Plus there's the fact that killing every one is just not as satisfying as forcing them to kneel before you. We wouldn't want to miss out on a televised show trial of Satan and his lords after all.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Plus there's the fact that killing every one is just not as satisfying as forcing them to kneel before you. We wouldn't want to miss out on a televised show trial of Satan and his lords after all.
Not smart. Hell has the best lawyers.
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Post by Starglider »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
We wouldn't want to miss out on a televised show trial of Satan and his lords after all.
Not smart. Hell has the best lawyers.
That's why it will be a HAB-style show trial.
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