Anonymous vs Scientology!

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Post by Rye »

Rogue 9 wrote:To my knowledge, no current Christian faction has such a laundry list of crimes to its name, hence why Scientology is being targeted by Anonymous as opposed to, say, the Vatican.
Yeah, I suppose letting people die of HIV that could've been avoided altogether by changing the line on condoms is somehow better than what scientology has done. I'd imagine more people have died in the past month from the church's evil stance on that issue than in the entirety of Scientology's history. I guess it could be argued that their intent is more benign, but if the direct and obvious consequences of your actions are more important than your intent.

Of course, there's also factions like the LRA, who in their desire to create a nation based on the 10 commandments routinely kidnap children, rape and torture them and then make them soldiers to achieve their own ends... shit, Scientology's got nothing on them.

That's not to say that a western man, a sci fi fan with a wife and kids and a stable income writing out a religious edict to shoot people to get an alien ghost off them, an edict he expected to be taken seriously in this society, day and age isn't "that" fucked up. I mean, with Hubbard's modern context, we can be sure that he was aware of enlightenment ideals, the sham of religion as a business and he was basically a modern man, unlike the primitive and superstitious authors of the bible. When we've got modern people like Hubbard demanding people be shot in his religion (or the Pope shooting his mouth off in suitably mendacious and archaic terms), I do find it more fucked up than the Bible telling me I shouldn't eat prawns.

Anyway, I would support similar actions to any organisational fronts to ideologies which inflict such misery on the world as the church of scientology, and I welcome actions that raise awareness to that end. It's all got to start somewhere.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

I don't think Hubbard was under any delusions of "clearing" people when he issued those edicts; that's pretty clearly an order to eliminate people who he thought could blow the lid off his entire scam operation.
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Post by Rye »

Uraniun235 wrote:I don't think Hubbard was under any delusions of "clearing" people when he issued those edicts; that's pretty clearly an order to eliminate people who he thought could blow the lid off his entire scam operation.
I'd agree.
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Post by Ariphaos »

CaptainChewbacca wrote: Exactly. Christians havn't sold indulgences since the middle ages, while Scientology gives people a price sheet for the 'fixed donation amounts' that various thetan levels cost. Even the Amish just shun you when you leave, but they don't picket outside your house and tell your neighbors you're a rapist pedophile.
I don't think Wong was particularly talking the Amish or Quakers. I have met evangelicals who participated in book burnings and when I argued that such movements generally led to burning people, I got "Well maybe they were right."

L Ron fucked up making Scientology separate from Christianity. I'm rather thankful for that.

Scientology has a lot of parallels with early Christianity/Mithraism and other mystery religions that evolved into modern catholicism. You had seven levels of initiation, each time learning a deeper secret. Plenty of harsh penalties, and plenty of ridicule by their fellow Romans.

Regardless, that other religions did such immoral crap in the past, or do today, doesn't forgive Scientology its behavior. It's a small enough evil that something can be done about it directly, without having to fight the inertia of one or two billion people with varying degrees of faith.

If something -does- come out of this, it can pave the way for a harsher stance against religious BS in general.
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Post by Darth Wong »

That's the thing; I make fun of Scientology too, because it's batshit insane, fucking stupid, and bad for society. But unlike Christians, I have a right to do that without inventing a giant double standard. Any Christian who makes fun of Scientology's bullshit is a fucking hypocrite.

Hell, just look at the Christian apologist bullshit in this thread, where people pointed out that Christians very rarely act on their more harmful beliefs. Hey genius, just how many people have been killed by Scientology, again? Oh yeah, it's only a handful. I guess the "most members don't do it" excuse only works for Christianity, not Scientology.

And yet, people have no trouble glossing over the massacre of a thousand Muslims by Christian militias in Lebanon in the 1980s at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, because "most" Christians don't do such things. Or the deaths by exorcism. Or all of the gay-bashing in America, which routinely included actual murder only a few decades ago.
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Post by Invictus ChiKen »

As soon as I figure out how I'm posting some pictures I took of an Anonymous information stand put up. It was in the testing field of "Star Fleet Academy" lol an RPG I am in.
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Post by Phantasee »

Random RL connection to online: Today I was walking through the Student's Union Building at the U of A, and I saw a table set up that said Scientology on the front (didn't read the whole thing), which had a couple guys in Oilers jerseys, and one of them was carrying a...shield. From 300.

:wtf:

I'm assuming they're Anonymous trying to recruit people for their protest of the local chapter, but still. A shield?
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Darth Wong wrote:That's the thing; I make fun of Scientology too, because it's batshit insane, fucking stupid, and bad for society. But unlike Christians, I have a right to do that without inventing a giant double standard. Any Christian who makes fun of Scientology's bullshit is a fucking hypocrite.

Hell, just look at the Christian apologist bullshit in this thread, where people pointed out that Christians very rarely act on their more harmful beliefs. Hey genius, just how many people have been killed by Scientology, again? Oh yeah, it's only a handful. I guess the "most members don't do it" excuse only works for Christianity, not Scientology.

And yet, people have no trouble glossing over the massacre of a thousand Muslims by Christian militias in Lebanon in the 1980s at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, because "most" Christians don't do such things. Or the deaths by exorcism. Or all of the gay-bashing in America, which routinely included actual murder only a few decades ago.
So only atheists get to oppose murder now?

Look, I'm not going to gloss over the Lebanese terrorists (yes, I apply that word to them, because they fit it to a T), or gay-bashing, or any other atrocities committed by Christians, and you good and goddamned well know that; I just saw no need to talk about it in a thread that has nothing to do with those subjects.

You'd be right if this were about making fun of believing in their space-opera dogma, absolutely correct. But it isn't. It's more analogous to opposing organized crime. If Scientology just went around believing in Xenu and body-thetans, I'd be content to leave them alone, and so would this whole movement, but they're not.

And if, at the end of the day, you call me a hypocrite for that, well, maybe you're right. But it doesn't really matter to me; I'm going to be out on the streets protesting on February 10, and if that's hypocritical, then I'm a hypocrite, but at least I'm working for the good.
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Post by Flagg »

Rogue 9 wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:That's the thing; I make fun of Scientology too, because it's batshit insane, fucking stupid, and bad for society. But unlike Christians, I have a right to do that without inventing a giant double standard. Any Christian who makes fun of Scientology's bullshit is a fucking hypocrite.

Hell, just look at the Christian apologist bullshit in this thread, where people pointed out that Christians very rarely act on their more harmful beliefs. Hey genius, just how many people have been killed by Scientology, again? Oh yeah, it's only a handful. I guess the "most members don't do it" excuse only works for Christianity, not Scientology.

And yet, people have no trouble glossing over the massacre of a thousand Muslims by Christian militias in Lebanon in the 1980s at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, because "most" Christians don't do such things. Or the deaths by exorcism. Or all of the gay-bashing in America, which routinely included actual murder only a few decades ago.
So only atheists get to oppose murder now?

Look, I'm not going to gloss over the Lebanese terrorists (yes, I apply that word to them, because they fit it to a T), or gay-bashing, or any other atrocities committed by Christians, and you good and goddamned well know that; I just saw no need to talk about it in a thread that has nothing to do with those subjects.

You'd be right if this were about making fun of believing in their space-opera dogma, absolutely correct. But it isn't. It's more analogous to opposing organized crime. If Scientology just went around believing in Xenu and body-thetans, I'd be content to leave them alone, and so would this whole movement, but they're not.

And if, at the end of the day, you call me a hypocrite for that, well, maybe you're right. But it doesn't really matter to me; I'm going to be out on the streets protesting on February 10, and if that's hypocritical, then I'm a hypocrite, but at least I'm working for the good.
But only against the easy targets!

Because taking on truly dangerous organizations that are culturally and politically entrenched within numerous countries across the globe just doesn't get the kind of results that make you go home happy thinking you taught those stupid fuckers a lesson, am I right? Going after the small ostracized cult that everyone thinks is fucking weird is so much braver too, isn't it? And really, who do these nutty fuckers think they are? Telling bullshit stories that are only decades old. No, you need centuries at least before you'll turn a blind eye.
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Post by Ariphaos »

Flagg wrote:But only against the easy targets!
...are you seriously claiming that Scientology is an easy target?
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Post by Gandalf »

Xeriar wrote:
Flagg wrote:But only against the easy targets!
...are you seriously claiming that Scientology is an easy target?
It is.

Nine out of ten people will easily see through the bullshit of Scientology. How many see through Christianity so easily?
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Post by Flagg »

Xeriar wrote:
Flagg wrote:But only against the easy targets!
...are you seriously claiming that Scientology is an easy target?
It's a fuckload of alot easier than taking on Christianity, Judaism or Islam (in most countries). Especially where PR is concerned. Or are you gonna tell me that there'd be as big of an uproar if someone tore up a picture of L. Ron Hubbard on national TV as there was when JPII got that treatment? Or that if someone drew a cartoon of Hubbard on a boat with a bunch of little kids running around on deck there would be people setting fire to embassies in entire regions?

Face it, the only threat anyone faces from Scientology is being sued. Which is a pain in the ass, but at the end of the day almost everyone still thinks they're a fucking joke. I don't see governments trying to shut down other blatantly false religions like Mormonism. Do you?
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Lawsuits can ruin a person's life, Flagg. I'm not going to equate Scientology's legal bullshittery with the Spanish Inquisition, but it's not appropriate to just handwave it away as a mere inconvenience either.

Also, of course it's an easier target. It's a feasible target. Going after something like the Catholic Church would be tilting at windmills. Hell, I'm skeptical that even the Church of Scientology will be destroyed by this; they'll probably go on.
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Post by SilverWingedSeraph »

Flagg wrote:It's a fuckload of alot easier than taking on Christianity, Judaism or Islam (in most countries). Especially where PR is concerned. Or are you gonna tell me that there'd be as big of an uproar if someone tore up a picture of L. Ron Hubbard on national TV as there was when JPII got that treatment? Or that if someone drew a cartoon of Hubbard on a boat with a bunch of little kids running around on deck there would be people setting fire to embassies in entire regions?

Face it, the only threat anyone faces from Scientology is being sued. Which is a pain in the ass, but at the end of the day almost everyone still thinks they're a fucking joke. I don't see governments trying to shut down other blatantly false religions like Mormonism. Do you?
Scientology is a cult. The Church itself does far worse than simply suing people. I take it you've never heard of Paulette Cooper. I agree that taking on Christianity or Judaism or Islam would be better. But it would be fucking impossible. With Scientology, we at least have a chance to take the fuckers down before they become as large and as powerful.

Scientology kills people. Mormonism at least is harmless for the most part, except for the goddamn people who come to my door trying to push their religion on me, but if I politely tell them I'm not interested, they leave. Scientology ruins peoples lives. It encourages its followers to give more and more money on "audits" and the like, until they have nothing left. It prevents severely mentally ill members from getting psychiatric help, sometimes resulting in their death. The religion itself is mostly harmless and rather silly. The CHURCH of Scientology is an evil, powerhungry cult who have no problem with defaming their critics, suing them, getting them up on fabricated criminal charges, and so on.

Nothing anyone's said about Christianity is wrong, in my belief. But Scientology is not as harmless as you're implying. Trying to take down any major Christian church in this matter would be practically impossible. At least with Scientology, it's somewhat feasible.
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Post by GuppyShark »

Their stated goal is merely to remove them from the Internet, so any additional damage would be bonus.
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Post by Flagg »

Uraniun235 wrote:Lawsuits can ruin a person's life, Flagg. I'm not going to equate Scientology's legal bullshittery with the Spanish Inquisition, but it's not appropriate to just handwave it away as a mere inconvenience either.
Yeah, so can getting on the wrong side of a Muslim or a Southern Baptist church.
Also, of course it's an easier target. It's a feasible target. Going after something like the Catholic Church would be tilting at windmills. Hell, I'm skeptical that even the Church of Scientology will be destroyed by this; they'll probably go on.
I'm sure they'll go on. Nothing legitimizes a religion better than some good old fashioned government persecution.

And yes, it's not quite feasible to go after the Catholics, but that's not the point. The point is that people are going after the Scientologists as if they are this great new evil that holds these fucked up weird and stupid beliefs, as opposed to a "real" religion, when they're really no worse than these other organizations that people never seem to go after unless there is money involved, and even then make sure they distance themselves from any criticisms of their actual beliefs.

So when people want props for "taking on" Scientology, they get a big fucking "meh" from me. It's like going after NAMBLA or the Klan. It's a simple, politically correct, and ultimately safe stand to take.

About the only people I really credit for going after them are Matt Stone and Trey Parker, who did it long after skewering other, equally stupid religions.
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Post by SilverWingedSeraph »

They've clearly gone beyond that point, with the protests and the like. I've heard that they're attempting to make the Church of Scientology lose its tax-exempt status. They're also helping to educate people on just what sort of fucked up stuff the Church of Scientology has done. Works for me.
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Flagg wrote:It's a fuckload of alot easier than taking on Christianity, Judaism or Islam (in most countries). Especially where PR is concerned. Or are you gonna tell me that there'd be as big of an uproar if someone tore up a picture of L. Ron Hubbard on national TV as there was when JPII got that treatment?
Miss O'Connor is still alive and healthy, yes? She still has a career, yes? Likewise, Christopher Hitchens got positively rave reviews. Taking on Christianity in the English-speaking world seems pretty safe, actually. In the US it's losing popularity at a bit under 1% per year, which, IMO, is not a bad pace.

Now look up "The Bridge". Or Bob Minton:

"Ken, you have to help me, they've got me this time. If you don't drop the case Monday morning, the blood and death of my daughters, my wife and myself will be on your hands."

The people who are fighting Scientology are risking their livelihoods for the sake of others.
Or that if someone drew a cartoon of Hubbard on a boat with a bunch of little kids running around on deck there would be people setting fire to embassies in entire regions?
No, since that wouldn't hurt the blasphemer, not does it really disparage Scientology.
Face it, the only threat anyone faces from Scientology is being sued.
You are a lying little shit.
Which is a pain in the ass, but at the end of the day almost everyone still thinks they're a fucking joke.
Their beliefs are a joke. The crap they pull is not, at least, not in my opinion. You may find their actions funny. Of course, if you do, you really are a worthless piece of shit.
I don't see governments trying to shut down other blatantly false religions like Mormonism. Do you?
Ah yes, let's go after a different cult just because it's bigger, even though it would receive less support and gain less momentum. Rather than take a 50% chance at saving a few thousand lives, let's take a 0% chance at saving a few.

It never occurs to you that this might get people to look more critically at religion, tax exempt status, and the free pass religion gets in a lot of countries.

Because you're an idiot.
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Post by Surlethe »

GuppyShark wrote:Their stated goal is merely to remove them from the Internet, so any additional damage would be bonus.
Actually, the stated goal is to dismantle the CoS. See the Anonymous message to Scientology on Youtube.
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Post by GuppyShark »

Yeah, sorry.

I really dropped the ball on that.
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Post by brianeyci »

Uraniun235 wrote:I don't think Hubbard was under any delusions of "clearing" people when he issued those edicts; that's pretty clearly an order to eliminate people who he thought could blow the lid off his entire scam operation.
Yeah obviously not... his entire scam was obviously to make money and he'd be aware of it.

The scary part is there'd be some people who'd believe it, and kill thinking they're really doing their victims a favor. Someone should make a Sea Org vs SS vs Catholic War Priests fanfic. I wouldn't know who to root for, Tom Cruise or Himmler or the Spanish inquisition guy.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Adolf Hitler sending Tom Cruise (with an eyepatch) to the firing squad would make an excellent movie. Oh wait :D

Mang, it'd be so cool if the Anonymouses protest would have them all wearing Guy Fawkes masks. Just like that...other movie!
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Post by Sephirius »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Adolf Hitler sending Tom Cruise (with an eyepatch) to the firing squad would make an excellent movie. Oh wait :D

Mang, it'd be so cool if the Anonymouses protest would have them all wearing Guy Fawkes masks. Just like that...other movie!
I have my Guy Fawkes Mask ready to go
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Flagg wrote:I'm sure they'll go on. Nothing legitimizes a religion better than some good old fashioned government persecution.
Whoa, hold the phone. What part of any of this says "government persecution" to you? :wtf:
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