The concept of sci-fi debating

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Darth Wong
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The concept of sci-fi debating

Post by Darth Wong »

Every now and then, somebody comes along to say that you shouldn't go frame-by-frame, or you shouldn't perform calculations, etc. I've heard many justifications for these arguments, such as:
  1. "The author doesn't know anything about science" (note that this is a red herring; if the author fucks up his science, we still must accept that this is the universe he created, no matter how stupid it is)
  2. "The effects were not meant to scrutinized so closely" (not only would this only reduce perceived accuracy, which doesn't mean much for order-of-magnitude calculations, but it is actually false in many cases; modern FX people often do work on such a minute level of detail that you won't notice half of their work until you do go frame-by-frame).
  3. "The shows are fictional" (I'm not sure why this means they can be analyzed in an unscientific manner but not a scientific one).
  4. "The shows are not meant to be realistic" (Again, note how the person somehow assumes that this slams the door on scientific approaches while leaving it open for unscientific approaches; if a show is not realistic, how does that make it OK to analyze it anyway, but without the benefit of a rational, objective method?)
I would like to present the "running man" analogy for how sci-fi analysis works. It goes like this: Dave and Pete are arguing about whether character A from one show is a faster runner than character B in another show.

Dave starts by saying that A can outrun some other guy in A's show. Pete points out that B can outrun some other guy in B's show. They quickly realize that they will come to an impasse. Dave starts talking about how A spent a lot of time training as a runner. Pete points out that B has very strong-looking leg muscles, and is probably a natural sprinter. Dave points out that some other character on A's show once said something about how A can probably outrun his car. B smacks him and says he's obviously being an idiot and interpreting obvious hyperbole as precise data.

Sooner or later, they realize that the only way to resolve the dispute is to watch the shows and (gasp!) perform some computations. Now, the equation is an extremely simple one from elementary kinematics: velocity = distance / time. But nevertheless, they must find scenes which can be roughly scaled, determine distances and times, and then use a calculator to figure out how fast each man runs. Only in this manner can a winner be determined.

So how is the above scenario different from sci-fi analysis? Answer: it isn't. All of the whining about calculations could be equally applied to this scenario. But of course, people wouldn't say it because it seems absurd. After all, the equation "velocity = distance / time" is obvious and valid, so it can most certainly be applied, right? What people need to realize is that many other scientific equations are equally valid, and the analogy applies.
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Post by Captain tycho »

Hmm... this would be good on your website.
Very good. :D As usual.
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Post by Shinova »

Sci-fi Debating 101 :)
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Post by neoolong »

I thought something like this was already on your page Mike?
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Post by SPOOFE »

I agree with you, Mr. Wong... nice name for the analogy, too.

But you have to keep in mind... people who say things like "it isn't real" are people who are either big fans of the show but really hate debating, or are just casual fans of the show and wouldn't debate anyway.

The only reason I - and, I imagine, many other people here - bother with Vs. debates is because I consider debate in and of itself to be an amusing excercise. It's mere serendipity that I also happen to be a fan of science fiction. Vs. debates give me fun debating over "pointless" subjects.

Here's a challenge to give to anyone who ever says "You shouldn't use such-and-such" method: Ask them to offer an alternative method that A: isn't subjective, and B: doesn't require one author/producer/whatever to make commentary on a sci-fi series that he/she has no authority in.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Yes, I don't know any other forum with the possible exception of SB that I could calculate the firepower of the Eclipses superlaser.
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Post by Darth Wong »

But that's the point, isn't it? When you look at a running man onscreen, it is only NATURAL to use an elementary kinematics equation to figure out how fast he can run. You might even perform a rough calculation in your head, without consciously thinking about it. But when someone performs the logical follow-through on this method, all of a sudden he's over-analyzing, being a "geek", etc.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Post by Master of Ossus »

Darth Wong wrote:But that's the point, isn't it? When you look at a running man onscreen, it is only NATURAL to use an elementary kinematics equation to figure out how fast he can run. You might even perform a rough calculation in your head, without consciously thinking about it. But when someone performs the logical follow-through on this method, all of a sudden he's over-analyzing, being a "geek", etc.
That is the point.

Incidentally, I debate because I like debating, and I happen to also enjoy Star Wars, Star Trek, and Babylon 5, so these debates are perfect for me.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

[Darkstar]Velocity equals distance over time? What kind of unscientific warsies bullshit is that?[/Darkstar]
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Post by Zoink »

I think it is completely reasonable to look at Star Trek or Star Wars from simply a thematic perspective, from what the author’s intent was....
However:

SUCH PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE ON THIS FORUM BECAUSE ITS WASN'T THE "INTENT" OF EITHER AUTHOR TO HAVE THE OTHER SPACE FRANCHISE’S SHIPS IN BATTLE!
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Post by neoolong »

Zoink wrote:I think it is completely reasonable to look at Star Trek or Star Wars from simply a thematic perspective, from what the author’s intent was....
However:

SUCH PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE ON THIS FORUM BECAUSE ITS WASN'T THE "INTENT" OF EITHER AUTHOR TO HAVE THE OTHER SPACE FRANCHISE’S SHIPS IN BATTLE!
Actually, I think that you can debate the relative strengths of the themes shown in both. It is more of a English paper type of debate, but it is still valid. However, that type of debate doesn't involve whether a shuttle could destroy an X-Wing.

And the aforementioned can have a place here, it just isn't a debate involving physics and battles.
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