The Top Ten Things Enviornmentalists Need to Learn (blog)

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The Top Ten Things Enviornmentalists Need to Learn (blog)

Post by Zixinus »

http://depletedcranium.com/?p=368
This came out a lot longer than I expected. However, this is also what is becoming an increasingly large portion of this website. Maintaining the environment is a critical issue especially as evidence of accelerated global warming mounts and as energy becomes more of an issue than it has in recent past. Unfortunately, many of those who claim to be working for enviornmental improvements lack an understanding of a few basic concepts which are absolutely critical to accomplishing anything.

I often find myself in arguments over economics versus environmentalism. This becomes a very difficult situation because the immediate accusation is that I care only about money and need to realize that sacrifices must be made for the good of the planet. I am also told that wind or solar is the answer and the costs and reduction of energy output is acceptable. These ideas that it is okay or honorable to make such sacrifices are overly simplistic and lack a true understanding of the forces at work. To use a phrase I have come to like, they are “Not even wrong.”

Thus, the top ten list…



10. Go after pollution sources with the highest cost/benefit ratio, not those which are most noticeable – If you are attempting to make a difference in the world, you should start with the largest problems with the simplest solutions and the least cost in remedying.

For example, underground coal fires produce as much CO2 as all the light cars and trucks in North America and most of those in Europe. The cost of developing a method of fighting such fires and implementing it is likely very low compared to the benefit especially in the context of the amount of effort which has gone into reducing the pollution from cars and trucks.

Similarly, aviation accounts only a small portion of CO2 emissions and there are no apparent alternatives to hydrocarbon fuels for aircraft which do not result in huge tradeoffs. The funds spent on attempting to develop and deploy hydrogen fueled aircraft or some other alternative are very high and there would be tradeoffs in the capabilities and economics of operation. Therefore, it is not wise to invest much effort or funds in such a pursuit.

9. It is always best and often vital to utilize existing infrastructure and capabilities when implementing new methods or technologies. - Any concept for producing more environmentally friendly systems must deal with the realities of the currently deployed infrastructure and the existing manufacturing and maintenance capabilities in place. Those which utilize these assets to the fullest will be the most successful and any which require retooling or major upgrades MUST be capable of doing so in an incremental manner which uses established capabilities wherever possible.

This is important in the context of things like transportation. It is entirely unreasonable to expect that there will be widely deployed hydrogen filling stations or other support facilities in the foreseeable future. Even if the ultimate goal is to establish such facilities, it is necessary that any technologies being implemented must be capable of compatibility with what currently exists in the midterm. For example, plug in hybrids which may be a stepping stone toward future electric-based vehicles but work well with existing technology.

Similarly, it is better to work with manufacturing, refining and distribution technologies that are already available as well as the existing skills of workers. It is better to deploy clean synthetic hydrocarbons, for example, than ethanol on a wide scale because ethanol cannot be pumped through existing petroleum pipelines due to it’s tendency to bind with water.

8. “Natural” “Organic” and “Bio” do not mean “good.” - Some of the most toxic substances known are natural. Furthermore there are times when using an artificial or engineered solution to a problem is far better than using a traditional low-tech or natural approach. Using synthetic substances, engineered approaches and technology can often improve the efficiency of an activity and therefore reduce the need for resources and the overall impact.

For example: a farm which utilizes insecticides and artificial fertilizers to grow a given amount of crops on ten acres may be far better for the local ecosystem than a farm which uses organic methods but requires twice the land be cleared. A common organic farming method for pest control is to import predator insects like lady bugs, however, importing large numbers of these insects may be considerably more disturbing to the local food chain and ecosystem than using a measured amount of an artificial pesticide.

”Nature” was not designed to provide mankind with food, energy and other needs in the most efficient, reliable and sustainable manner. Therefore, engineered or artificial approaches may have better overall outcomes.

7. Plans for the future should not be made on the most optimistic predictions and should consider the most pessimistic reasonable predictions – If you are formulating a plan for providing energy you cannot base it on the assumption that there will be an overall decrease in energy usage. Rather, one must assume that energy needs will continue to grow as they always have, if not faster.

Similarly, no plans for the future should ever be based on the assumption that it will be possible to do something better/faster/cheaper than it can now based on future technologies. One cannot, for example, create say “We’ll just have to develop a more efficient solar cell that is ten times cheaper than what we have now.” There is no guarantee that such research and development in such an area will be fruitful.

”Hope for the best but prepare for the worst” is generally the best policy. Any statement like “Well we won’t need to plan for that because in ten years we’ll be at the point where we’ll only need half as much oil” should be viewed with extreme skepticism.

6. Simply attacking an environmentally damaging activity is not effective unless a better alternative of similar or better economics and usefulness is presented – Protesting a coal fired power plant is, in and of itself, useless, because the plant is necessary to provide electricity. It is even worse to oppose coal, oil and hydroelectric because those are all major sources of electricity. If one wants to phase out something like coal there must be an alternative presented. It is always more effective to promote the alternative than to oppose what exists. If the alternative is accepted, the existing activity being opposed will go away on its own.

It is important that the alternative be reasonable, not speculative and capable of replacing what exists with minimal sacrifice in general. Any alternative which provides additional non-environmental benefits, such as cheaper energy, improved capabilities or better performance (in the case of a vehicle) will aid greatly in promoting the alternative. If such benefits can be presented the likelihood of success is extremely high.

5. Taxation, price increases and caps on energy are inherently regressive and cause great damage. – Regressive means that it has a greater impact on the lower classes than the upper classes and also effects upward mobility and general quality of life. Increasing the price of energy does not mean simply mandating a price or taxing it directly. Any measures which limit energy production will cause an increase in price due to market forces. This includes carbon taxation and carbon capping without providing a variable alternative. Mandating the use of energy technologies which are limited in output or are expensive will likewise increase prices.

High priced energy is a huge burden on the lower classes to a degree much higher than the upper class. Energy is a fundamental expense to living, both directly in the form of heating, transportation and electricity and also indirectly in how it effects production of all goods and services. The price makes up a much larger proportion of the spending of those with less. Thus, an increase in the price of energy DOES NOT make all people conserve energy in an equal manner nor does it prevent frivolous use of energy.

Joe billionaire still fuels up his yatch and barely notices that he spent five dollars a gallon on marine diesel instead of two, but poor families go cold because they cannot afford heating oil at twice the price. In the end, those with the money to adopt cleaner and more efficient technology and with the excesses which can be cut are the least likely to do so. The more likely outcome of higher energy prices is a move to alternative energy sources which offer a lower cost, even if doing so results in more pollution instead of less. An example would be the wood burning stove boom during the 1970’s oil crisis or waste oil burners.

This increases the class divide, as any shortage of such an important commodity will. It causes more poverty and limits upward mobility. The overall reduction in quality of life effects nearly all sectors including health and any burden on the economic system will only make government social programs more burdened.



4. It is unreasonable to expect the general public will accept major reductions in living standards or comfort and convenience. Simply put, it won’t happen – There is no point in debating the ethics of driving a big car and taking vacations versus making sacrifices to sustain the environment, because history shows that the public has a very limited tolerance for any measures which directly effect their comfort, convenience and other wants. Therefore, if you want people to drive a car which is environmentally friendly, it must not be a glorified golfcart. It cannot lack air conditioning and be small, slow and lacking in capacity. People will not accept that kind of sacrifice in general.

Because they will not move to environmentally friendly options voluntarily, the next thing which generally is proposed is to mandate very strict limitations on the use of anything from incandescent light bulbs to air conditioners to big engines. The problem is that this will not generally be accepted if there is not an equally viable alternative. People will either skirt the regulations or they will put pressure on politicians to change them. In a democracy, the politicians will always be forced to bow to the will of the people on any matter which is universally disliked.

(They want their damn bread and circus and you’d be a fool to try to talk them into living without them.)

3. Depending on continuous heavy subsidies is not sustainable. – Subsidies exist for a reason and are not always a completely bad thing. They are designed to do things like maintain a strategic capability which is not normally profitable or to stimulate a sector which is important to a country and might now develop on it’s own.

However, when it comes to energy and development, a subsidy cannot be a tow-line, but only a jump start. In other words, it must be for the purpose of establishing a capability which will have value and returns on the initial expenditure. Paying to keep something going for years when it has shown disappointing results is a complete waste. It is not economically sustainable and has low benefit.

It also should be pointed out that “creating jobs” is not an economic benefit if those jobs are entirely based on expenditures which do not result in a tangible payback and rely on direct funding to exist. “Creating 1000 jobs” is not a good thing if the way they were created is by paying 1000 people to do something useless. The sustainability and overall effect must be considered.

2. Every little bit does not help. – There is absolutely no point in perusing technologies or methods which do not have the potential for actually making an ecological difference, especially if doing so will expend funds, energy or other resources without any significant return. Even in cases where there is little overall investment, simply harping on the most insignificant overall issues will at least draw attention away from what credible solutions exist.

In the end, it is not really going to matter if there is .00001% les Co2 in the air in a century. Those technologies which have limited potential are best abandoned to cut losses as soon as it becomes apparent how limited they are. Campaigns against things like iPhones are idiotic, considering the massive discharges of waste by other parts of the electronics industry and other industries in general. Putting a solar panel on your roof might make you feel good but that’s about all it does. Saying “someone has to start” or “if everyone would do it” or “every bit helps” does not count for much when you know that everyone *will not* do it and “every little bit” helps a very very little bit.

1. Sacrificing the needs of an economy for the environment will destroy both. - This is overall and far and away one thing which environmentalists seem to entirely lack any understanding of. There are a lot of claims that sacrifices must be made economically or that “the price of damaging the environment cannot be measured in dollars. We need to consider that cheap power has hidden costs to earth.”

The major problem with this is that the economic health of a society effects nearly all aspects of the society. For example, during times of recession, crime rates tend to rise, health generally deteriorates, general public moral is far less. The effects are far reaching both broadly and individually. When the economy does well, more people have good paying jobs with benefits. More people have healthcare coverage and those who do not are generally more able to pay for healthcare. More people go to college and education in general improves. There are more funds for donation to charities and the government has far more of a taxbase from which to spend.

The impact on the environment is also effected by this for several reasons. It has been said that “environmentalism is a luxury” and this is actually true in many circumstances. In a poor country cars blow out more exhaust because owners are not as prone to good upkeep of the engine and exhaust system. Recycling does not exist in such countries because the funds are not available and the demand for more raw materials is lacking, thus making it less financially motivating to recover materials.

In general, people become far less concerned with the environment when they see that their own lives and the lives of those close to them are not very good. A person does not buy highly efficient lightbulbs or a hybrid car in such circumstances. If they cannot afford oil to keep warm, they will not insulate their home but rather are more likely to start cutting down trees for fuel. They may even buy a simple stove and start to burn garbage for fuel.

An economy is not healthy when it is stagnant. It must not only be growing to be healthy, but to be prosperous it should have the highest possible growth rate while maintaining sustainable funds and keeping inflation in relative check. Only under such circumstances will the government and private organizations have the funds and the ability to tackle environmental issues. The flip side of this is that it means an increase in consumption and in consumerism in general. This equates to more potential for environmental impact.

The key, in the end, is to find ways to keep a robust and healthy economy while promoting good environmental policy. Doing so will increase standards of living, decrease poverty, increase environmentally positive projects and benefit all aspects of life and ecology.
I have to read it more then once, but I think this little blog entry sums up many problems with rabid environmentalist approach in today's politics.

God damn, did that sounded smart of what? :P
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Good points, even if his grammar sucks in places. Generally what I try and highlight in similar discussions, though the stonewalling people tend to have perfected on this issue or simple "I'll get right on that, buddy. It's important to me... right after I finish doing this" faux commitment gets old.
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

From i've read of organic farming, it's a bit more complex than they let on. I have to get the citation from the textbook used in my class, but they provided a study that covered a ten-year period of production of multiple organic vs traditional farms, and the result was that the traditional farms produced a larger bounty in the short-term, but on average not in the long-term over the total ten year period, each farm having similar conditions other than the methods used.

What they also discovered was that for each acre of land on the organic farm, there was significantly more wildlife and plant diversity compared to the traditional farms, less environmental damage to the land used.

It's true that organic farming required more land, but given what people need, they indicated it wasn't terribly greater. I will have to give you the link to the study and the page for your own reference, as this is always confused me.

You also need to be careful when people use terms like organic, as many organic farms don't actually follow the guidelines and do whatever they want, meeting only a few of the categories so they can slap a label on it.

I am going home this weekend, so I can get it when I get home. For now, though, the book was "The Ethics of What We Eat."
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Interesting salient points about the economy. Well, most of the piece could be condensed as "It's the economy, Stupid. With what are you going to save if there ain't money to do something about it?". That aside, realistic assessments of technology is also important, as he says.

Also, the "every little bit helps" nonsense really is something that has got be said. It happens to apply to a lot of things as well.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

It is unreasonable to expect the general public will accept major reductions in living standards or comfort and convenience.
Indeed. So what does that mean? Only one thing - people will learn that the hardest way possible. Sorry. You can't pretend ochlocracy and mob rule are a viable excuse for the current patterns of consumption and production. So if environmental crisis hits seriously, I won't feel sorry for fucktards who drive in SUVs and "put pressure on politicians" to maintain that. Fuck them hard. Pardon this humble, reasonable environmentalist, but I don't have compassion for complacent, stupid fools who pave the way to their own destruction and out of short-sightedness and greed ignore the collective damage to their habitat.

It's unreasonable to expect the public to act rationally, but I think we have to move away from pondering to the "public opinion" on every matter which is even beyond Joe Average's tiny understanding. Anyway, else we'd have serious damage done no matter how "smart" environmentalists are.
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Post by TheKwas »

10-Good
9-Good
8-Good
7- Much too simplistic. There are valid economic tool for determining technological advances to a certain degree, and including such information is always a plus in any economic model.
6- What if you're alternative is less consumption?
5- Bullshit. Yes, obviously any tax will, one way or another, affect the poor, and enviromental taxes moreso, but that alone isn't an argument against them. Taxes play a central role in forcing industries to move towards new technologies, because if there isn't significant motivation, they will never bother with alternative technology and we can't just sit around and let Peak Oil do all our work for us. He mentions that the 70's Oil Crisis led to more wood stoves, but he fails to mentioned that the 70s is the main reason we rarely see the huge cares that dominated in the 50's and 60s. Car industries were forced to move to smaller cars, which is why Japanese cars ended up being so successful in North American markets.

What government can do to reduce the poor's burden is decrease other, non-carbon taxes on the poor and allocate them to the rich. Viola, we have the same tax structure as before, but we now have created incentives for enviromentally friendly technology.

4- ok, whatever, not gonna argue this one too much, although there counter examples that can be observed. Indeed, much of East Asia's economic development came due to their culture of self-sacrifice.

3- Good
2-This is point 4 again.
1-Obviously valid.
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Post by Zixinus »

7- Much too simplistic. There are valid economic tool for determining technological advances to a certain degree, and including such information is always a plus in any economic model.
However how certain are these technological advances and how much can they truly be relied on?

For example, you can point to a graph that shows that in the last 20 years you can put much more chips on a board then before. However, there may be technical limitations about just how much chips you can put on a board, cooling for example. Electronics produce heat, and if you cram too much chips on a board, they will have too little surface area versus how much heat is produced (yes, yes, I'm sure this is counted on in design, but look at new graphics cards for example: originally they were a mere extensions, now they need a powered cooling system), thus there will be a point where getting rid of heat might be a problem (that or increase the size, which has other problems).

Although, I think this point is about relying on optimistic predictions, versus relying on pessimistic predictions.
6- What if you're alternative is less consumption?
Consumption of what exactly?
What government can do to reduce the poor's burden is decrease other, non-carbon taxes on the poor and allocate them to the rich. Viola, we have the same tax structure as before, but we now have created incentives for enviromentally friendly technology.
I find that this statement is somehow too simplistic. Somehow, I don't think that its that simple. For example, how do you determine who's poor and who's rich?
He mentions that the 70's Oil Crisis led to more wood stoves, but he fails to mentioned that the 70s is the main reason we rarely see the huge cares that dominated in the 50's and 60s. Car industries were forced to move to smaller cars, which is why Japanese cars ended up being so successful in North American markets.
Which had nothing to do with taxation. It merely had to do with market forces. The rich could afford more expensive gas/fuel. The poor could not, and switched to cars that are more efficient with gas/fuel.
Indeed, much of East Asia's economic development came due to their culture of self-sacrifice.
Are we talking about East Asian countries where the poor would work for far less then what is expected in Western countries and where obedience to the government is rooted into culture? Good work ethics and smart management are not the same as self-sacrifice.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

10. Go after pollution sources with the highest cost/benefit ratio, not those which are most noticeable
This should be changed to "cost-benefit Ratio Over Time"
For example, underground coal fires produce as much CO2 as all the light cars and trucks in North America and most of those in Europe. The cost of developing a method of fighting such fires and implementing it is likely very low compared to the benefit especially in the context of the amount of effort which has gone into reducing the pollution from cars and trucks.
And this bullshit argument is why. Over a short period of time, an underground coal-fire may well produce more CO2, but that is acute, cars and trucks are chronic. They produce a steady amount over the course of the year and as a result contribute massively to our annual emissions. Such that we SHOULD invest very very heavily in reducing our emissions.
9. It is always best and often vital to utilize existing infrastructure and capabilities when implementing new methods or technologies.
True. Though emphasis should be on the "if possible" part
8. “Natural” “Organic” and “Bio” do not mean “good.”
Agreed. Though in the case of pesticides and the like, then better option is to genetically engineer our food crops.
7. Plans for the future should not be made on the most optimistic predictions and should consider the most pessimistic reasonable predictions
Agreed, pessimism is your friend.
6. Simply attacking an environmentally damaging activity is not effective unless a better alternative of similar or better economics and usefulness is presented
This I will not agree with. Why? because sometimes it is better to reduce consumption than allow a practice to continue because no alternative presently exists. Additionally, the status quo, even if it is technically inferior to an alternative can persist due to the influence of its promoters (or the alternative's detractors). For example: Nuclear power and solar energy are clearly advantageous to our current methods of generating power (solar is location specific though...) However due to lobbying groups, it will not be adopted on a large scale in the near future.

If AI live in the right area (and i plan to) i can build solar panels on my roof and sell power back to the grid. It is amazing to me that this this not been adopted in Arizona... ARIZONA of all places. Why? because until very recently HOAs prohibited them because they are an "eyesore"

Instead, we generate power using hydroelectric stations, which are not sustainable given our drought conditions, and also destroy every ecosystem downstream.
5. Taxation, price increases and caps on energy are inherently regressive and cause great damage.
Which means we should use tax incentives. But also recognize that it isbnecessary to increase prices, or allow prices to increase via market forces (read: gas prices or the price of water in a fucking desert)

why? Because the only way a corporation will get something done, or sufficient demand for new energy, or sustainable water sources will be generated such that tax penalties do not need to be used is through the use of higher prices for these commodities. If we keep gas prices reasonable through the use of our petroleum reserves or ANWR drilling, then alternatives to hydrocarbon fuels will not be seen as needed.
4. It is unreasonable to expect the general public will accept major reductions in living standards or comfort and convenience. Simply put, it won’t happen
Thankfully this does not need to happen save for little cosmetic things like the cool "vroom" sound cars make when you rev the engine.
3. Depending on continuous heavy subsidies is not sustainable.
True but they are good in the interim.
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Post by TheKwas »

Consumption of what exactly?
Products with large ecofootprints of course.
I find that this statement is somehow too simplistic. Somehow, I don't think that its that simple. For example, how do you determine who's poor and who's rich?
Obviously the economists and lawyers have to work through the web of existing laws and regulations to recreate the structure without loops, plus there's the political capital issues, but the basic principal really is that simple. If you're worried about the poor being taxed too much in one area, lessen the burdern in another area.


As for who's rich and who's poor, there's plenty of definitions and distinctions for that in both existing government regulations and laws and economic literature. If there's a real need to redefine existing brackets, do a quick study to see who is affected by a potential carbon tax in what way and slice up the population accordingly. If a certain bracket gains 20% of extra tax-relief relative to another bracket, re-adjust the other taxes to compensate.

As for the actual bracket configuring, there's numerous tools that one can use to group a population according to variance.
Which had nothing to do with taxation. It merely had to do with market forces. The rich could afford more expensive gas/fuel. The poor could not, and switched to cars that are more efficient with gas/fuel.
It doesn't matter what caused it, because it will have the same effect: Fuel prices will go up. The poor can't afford the fuel and switch to a more efficient car. The rich don't give a shit to the same extent.
Are we talking about East Asian countries where the poor would work for far less then what is expected in Western countries and where obedience to the government is rooted into culture? Good work ethics and smart management are not the same as self-sacrifice.
Are you denying that investment/saving rates of >30% require significant self-sacrifice?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Like many people who talk often about economics, he ignores empiricism in favour of dogma (economics is the new religion). For example, he claims that fuel taxes are unacceptable because they would severely harm the poor. However, virtually all of the other western countries have much higher fuel taxes than America, and their poor are doing better than the poor in America, as measured by infant mortality rates. After all, those fuel taxes can pay for things like ... oh, I dunno, social programs, health care, better public education, etc.
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Post by Zixinus »

After all, those fuel taxes can pay for things like ... oh, I dunno, social programs, health care, better public education, etc.
Doesn't that have more to do how money is spent rather then where it comes from? It isn't like the USA can barely keep itself up and is piss poor.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Zixinus wrote:
After all, those fuel taxes can pay for things like ... oh, I dunno, social programs, health care, better public education, etc.
Doesn't that have more to do how money is spent rather then where it comes from? It isn't like the USA can barely keep itself up and is piss poor.
It has to do with the fact that his generalized anti-tax argument is bullshit. The most important factor in the living standard of the poor is social handouts (yes, I'm going to call them handouts and defend them anyway), not tax cuts.
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Post by Darth Servo »

Darth Wong wrote:Like many people who talk often about economics, he ignores empiricism in favour of dogma (economics is the new religion). For example, he claims that fuel taxes are unacceptable because they would severely harm the poor. However, virtually all of the other western countries have much higher fuel taxes than America, and their poor are doing better than the poor in America, as measured by infant mortality rates. After all, those fuel taxes can pay for things like ... oh, I dunno, social programs, health care, better public education, etc.
Its worse than that. People seem to worship one single aspect of economics. My idiot libertarian brother for example acts like supply and demand is the ONLY economic principle out there and bases his entire world view on it. He completely ignores OTHER economic factors like diminishing marginal return.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

They also ignore the fact that people are not actually rationally self interested. We just like to think we are. We do a lot of things that are not actually in our best interests based upon biases and preconceived notions all the time.
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Post by Junghalli »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:They also ignore the fact that people are not actually rationally self interested. We just like to think we are. We do a lot of things that are not actually in our best interests based upon biases and preconceived notions all the time.
Not to mention that our self-interest tends to be of a very short-sighted variety. Energy producers fighting attempts to wean our civilization of oil is a good example; if something has short-term positive consequences and negative consequences that aren't immediately obvious we tend to ignore them.
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