Call to Arms! Need All Material on...

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-08 03:27pm

Creationism VS Evolution! From that crazy guy who offers money for proof of Evolution to all counters to Creationist Aurgments

You see Mr Bean was shocked to discover that not only had he let his knowledge on the subject slip but also that one, indeed of his close family had converted to the belief of YOUNG EARTH Creationists!

Thefore I need information, faqs, quotes, what have you, anything I can use to swing my family memeber back from the idiot side
To Arms Board Memebers, Give me everything you got!

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-08-08 04:38pm

You must act quickly, before the bullshit becomes entrenched in your friend's brain.

Here is by far the best site with what you are looking for: http://www.talkorigins.org

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-08 05:16pm

Everything! I must have it, From Wongs website to that guy offering money if anyone can prove evolution but infact he's asking to dis-prove the existance of God
More I must have more!

Mr. B · Post by **Mr. B** » 2002-08-08 05:32pm

http://www.atheists.org/bone.pit/index.html

http://atheism.about.com/msubmenu16.htm?once=true&

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2002-08-08 05:49pm

Mr Bean wrote:Everything! I must have it, From Wongs website to that guy offering money if anyone can prove evolution but infact he's asking to dis-prove the existance of God
More I must have more!

I think it's a waste of time. I've found that recent converts are virtually impossible to reason with.

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2002-08-08 06:09pm

One good book is Why People Believe Weird Things by Michael Shermer. It discusses several pseudoscientific claims but has a nice section concerning creationism, including how to deal with some creationist tactics. Another good one is Abusing Science- the Case Against Creationism by Philip Kitcher. It does a fine job of explaining how science works and why creationism is not science. A similar work is Scientists Confront Creationism, a collection of articles by several scientists. To me the most important thing to do when trying to save a fundamentalist is to teach him what science really says and how it works; why Darwin is a scientist and not a prophet, and what that means. Sadly, even many people who accept evolution do not know how it works.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-08-08 06:58pm

Righto. One of the biggest problems for science is pinheads who promote it and accept it but don't understand how it works (see Gothmog), so they treat it as an authoritarian system. Such people are easily converted to such forms of idiocy as creationism because they need only be converted from one set of authorities to another (and this new authority is supposedly omnipotent, rewarding his followers with eternal paradise!)

BTW, the idiot who offers a reward for proof of evolution has rigged his contest from the very beginning. Not only is it impossible to absolutely prove a theory (I cannot even absolutely prove to you that I exist!), but he defines evolution as part of his challenge, and his definition of evolution is wrong. In effect, he is challenging you to produce absolute proof of a grossly distorted strawman version of evolution: a challenge which is spurious on two counts.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-08-08 07:29pm

I'll second Why People Believe Weird Things. That book has an excelent section on evolution versus Creationism.

I consider Michael Shermer to be one of my personal heroes.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-08-08 09:48pm

But... but... I read this Chick Tract and was completely convinced that Creationism is true!

(Yeah, right...)

lgot · Post by **lgot** » 2002-08-09 01:28am

I think is a waste. One people only learn about other this if they really want, so putting up thousands and thousands of evidences will never be unable to beat faith if the person still close-minded.
And besides, Darwin's natural selection is a tricky teory. People did a lot of mistake reading it then and they still do not get all meaning of it yet.
Its disaprove the Christian god only because it clearly showed us humans are just one more animal, our inteligence or "soul" are just adapatations was the eggs or fruits. The earth was not made to us, the nature was not here to serve us. nothing of that. Its hard to swallow.
Creationism ,the whole "inteligent project" - not sure if its how is called this teory in english now - is a form of evolution teory that come up in the 19th century when the notion of evolution was over accepted even before Darwin's success (Darwin himself did not liked the word evolution, since its means getting better, which was not what he found out in a nature without superior species) when the church-cientist defenders like Owen had not how to refute the changing nature of our planet. So, making a duel between evolution and creationism is just a waste of time.

Meghel · Post by **Meghel** » 2002-08-09 02:59am

If your friend likes fantasy books, I would suggest taking some passages from The Science of Discworld, where this is handled in a joking, but clear way.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 94-4884940

Educational book.
http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/

Multiple links on the subject:
http://physics.syr.edu/courses/modules/ ... igins.html

Good luck,

Meghel

PS: what kind of creationism is it that the member of your family believes in?

If it is the "World is 6000 years old"-stuff, start him/her immediate conversion back to logic science and reality.

If it is the "God created the word and did it through evolution"-stuff, it is going to be more difficult for you. Besided, I am a Christian who believes in this creationism.

Rathark · Post by **Rathark** » 2002-08-09 04:21am

If it is the "God created the word and did it through evolution"-stuff, it is going to be more difficult for you. Besided, I am a Christian who believes in this creationism.

I agree with this theory, but I accept that it is still a matter of faith.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-08-09 05:40am

If it is the "World is 6000 years old"-stuff, start him/her immediate conversion back to logic science and reality.

Actually, ask him why God would want to deceive us. Is he just a big omnipotent prankster? Is he really so immature as to pull the wool over our eyes?

Then ask him this: "Don't you think God is powerful enough to create a universe that will survive for BILLIONS of years, instead of mere thousands? Don't you think God is wise and capable enough to create an infinitely intricate machine set into motion that, using protons, neutrons, neutrinos, quarks, etc. ultimately resulted in us?"

If they still deny it, simply say, "I pity you to believe in a God that is so limited."

If they take it, it's just a short skip from there to believing that God, if anything, is at best a passive presence to the universe, instead of some intruding, insecure bully who can't just let things proceed naturally. After all... why would God create nature just to violate it all the time?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-08-09 06:45am

I weep for you Bean.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-09 07:44am

I will struggle struggle on!
Oh and whos the crazy guy with the challenge to Prove Evolution except its not quite and offers money for it.

Still need his name somone linked him before but I've lost it

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2002-08-09 08:00am

The crazy fellow in question is David Hovind or "Dr. Dino".

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-09 09:17am

Links?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-09 02:56pm

One of the problems you will have, Mr. Bean, is that most of these Fundamentalist-types ask you a trick question. They ask you to show them THE PROOF that evolution took place. If you give them one piece of information, they will moronically rebut it. When you attack their rebutal by presenting another piece of evidence, they will proudly tell you that you did not show them THE PROOF. This is common among people who non-sensically believe in such theories. Many Holocaust-deniers ask for THE proof that the Holocaust took place. If you show them Auschwitz, or similar, they will come up with an idiotic explanation of what Auschwitz was there for (sometimes they even say that it was merely an internment camp, ala the Japanese ones in America during the time, and that no people were put to death there). When you show them the gas chambers, then, they will similarly pass them off and say that you have not shown them THE proof. Essentially, these people are looking for a golden bullet-- a piece of evidence that single handedly demonstrates conclusively that something happened one way and not another. That is usually not possible. These people refuse to accept multiple pieces of evidence, and they completely ignore Occam's Razor (and similar). They then confidentally claim that they have beaten lots of people in debates, when really all they have been able to do is weakly attack a single piece of evidence (presenting "reasonable doubt" in their minds). My guess is that that is what is going on here, Mr. Bean. If it is, I wouldn't even bother trying to debate them. Such people are usually so entrenched in their beliefs that they will ignore evidence and take the presentation of more facts as personal attacks.

BTW, this is actually surprisingly similar to DarkStar's typical debating policy. I would say that he was a Star Trek Fundamentalist (TM), but he clearly doesn't believe that what is seen on screen is always accurate.