Catholic nuns and monks decline

[R_H] · Post by **[R_H]** » 2008-02-05 07:56am

The Vatican has reported a further dramatic fall in the number of Roman Catholic monks and nuns worldwide.

Newly published statistics showed that the number of men and women belonging to religious orders fell by 10% to just under a million between 2005 and 2006.

During the pontificate of the late Pope John Paul II, the number of Catholic nuns worldwide declined by a quarter.

The downward trend accelerated despite a steady increase in the membership of the Catholic Church to more than 1.1bn.

However, correspondents say even this failed to keep pace with the overall increase in world population.

Dramatic fall

On the back page of its official newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican published on Monday new statistics revealing that between 2005 and 2006 the number "members of the consecrated life" fell by just under 10%.

The number of members, predominantly women, some engaged only in constant prayer, others working as teachers, health workers and missionaries, fell 94,790 to 945,210. Of the total, 753,400 members were women, while 191,810 were men, including 136,171 priests and 532 permanent deacons.

The figures were published next to a report of Pope Benedict XVI's meeting with nuns, monks and priests from many countries gathered in St Peter's Basilica in Rome last weekend.

The BBC's David Willey in the Italian capital says the accelerating downward trend must have caused concern to the Pope.

The Roman Catholic Church has an aging and diminishing number of parish and diocesan clergy and this latest fall is quite dramatic, our correspondent says.

The number of Catholic nuns worldwide declined by about a quarter during the reign of Pope John Paul, and this further drop shows that new recruits are failing to replace those nuns who die, or decide to abandon their vows, he adds.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2008-02-05 09:32am

Sounds like they need to downsize.

Seriously, this is simply the invetiable side effect of a thousand years of expansion, spawning hundreds of cathedrals, monestarys and cloisters.

They've had a good long run, but the church is filled with bloat and has a hard time attracting new recruits, between the scandels and the fact it's simply not that attractive to this or future generations to go off and live in a giant stone building and pray alot.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-02-05 09:40am

Do you hear that, Pope Benedict? That is the sound of inevitability...

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2008-02-05 10:05am

How much larger would the decline be if the church actually aggressively rooted out gays and pedophiles? And No, this does not mean I view gays and pedophiles in the same light, it just points out that the church has turned a blind eye to these two groups as I believe it would further severely impact on their numbers and expose a seamy underbelly to church life they'd rather not think about or acknowledge.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-02-05 10:06am

Do you think the pedophile population inside the Church is so significant that rooting them out would have a significant effect on the decline?

Post by **Surlethe** » 2008-02-05 10:07am

Stravo wrote:How much larger would the decline be if the church actually aggressively rooted out gays and pedophiles? And No, this does not mean I view gays and pedophiles in the same light, it just points out that the church has turned a blind eye to these two groups as I believe it would further severely impact on their numbers and expose a seamy underbelly to church life they'd rather not think about or acknowledge.

Pedophiles, I'm not sure how many there are, but AFAIK the church has no official problem with gay people who don't have sex, including in the priesthood.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-02-05 10:27am

Stravo wrote:How much larger would the decline be if the church actually aggressively rooted out gays and pedophiles? And No, this does not mean I view gays and pedophiles in the same light, it just points out that the church has turned a blind eye to these two groups as I believe it would further severely impact on their numbers and expose a seamy underbelly to church life they'd rather not think about or acknowledge.

Honestly, the whole Catholic Church seems subtly pedophilic to me anyway. The whole tradition of having fresh-faced pre-pubescent altar boys following the priests around and doing their bidding just reeks of the ancient Roman and Greek tradition of having a young male manservant to serve older wealthy men.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2008-02-05 01:22pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:How much larger would the decline be if the church actually aggressively rooted out gays and pedophiles? And No, this does not mean I view gays and pedophiles in the same light, it just points out that the church has turned a blind eye to these two groups as I believe it would further severely impact on their numbers and expose a seamy underbelly to church life they'd rather not think about or acknowledge.
Honestly, the whole Catholic Church seems subtly pedophilic to me anyway. The whole tradition of having fresh-faced pre-pubescent altar boys following the priests around and doing their bidding just reeks of the ancient Roman and Greek tradition of having a young male manservant to serve older wealthy men.

...which makes even more disturbing sense when you reflect on where the Church got its start.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2008-02-05 01:28pm

Well, what do you expect? That damn printing press took away one of the monk's most important jobs. Its been going down hill since.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2008-02-05 02:28pm

Surlethe wrote:
Stravo wrote:How much larger would the decline be if the church actually aggressively rooted out gays and pedophiles? And No, this does not mean I view gays and pedophiles in the same light, it just points out that the church has turned a blind eye to these two groups as I believe it would further severely impact on their numbers and expose a seamy underbelly to church life they'd rather not think about or acknowledge.
Pedophiles, I'm not sure how many there are, but AFAIK the church has no official problem with gay people who don't have sex, including in the priesthood.

The church's position on gay priests is that as long as they're not engaging in gay sex then they're OK. However, in a documentary on pedophile priests I saw awhile back an ex-seminarian was talking about a "gay mafia" in the Church where there are groups of sexually active gay priests and he claims that the church is afraid to crack down on these sexually active gay priests because the number of priests would take another plunge simultaneously saying something about the current priestly population.

Invictus ChiKen · Post by **Invictus ChiKen** » 2008-02-05 04:10pm

Trust me, Benedict is getting ready to kick out the gays in those positions and bar them from service.

Ironically I'm lead to understand Buddhist have no trouble getting new monks. Of course they do more than sit around praying all day, they travel the world teaching Buddhism and supervising the construction of temples and such.

Plus your not necessarily in it for life and in some cases can even have sex and marry (Some Tibetan Buddhist Groups).

FSTargetDrone · Post by **FSTargetDrone** » 2008-02-05 04:57pm

If the end result is its withering away to the point where it is no longer relevant and influential on the world because of a decline in priests and nuns, I truly hope the Roman Catholic Church maintains its highly restrictive attitudes towards not letting priests marry and its second-class treatment of women. Let it strangle itself into oblivion.

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2008-02-05 08:33pm

Perhaps we can look at this as an example of evolution in action: the genes which cause people to be more likely to become monks and nuns invariably get tied up in people who are celibate, and are thus getting bred out of the population.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2008-02-05 09:39pm

Stravo wrote:
Surlethe wrote:
Stravo wrote:How much larger would the decline be if the church actually aggressively rooted out gays and pedophiles? And No, this does not mean I view gays and pedophiles in the same light, it just points out that the church has turned a blind eye to these two groups as I believe it would further severely impact on their numbers and expose a seamy underbelly to church life they'd rather not think about or acknowledge.
Pedophiles, I'm not sure how many there are, but AFAIK the church has no official problem with gay people who don't have sex, including in the priesthood.
The church's position on gay priests is that as long as they're not engaging in gay sex then they're OK. However, in a documentary on pedophile priests I saw awhile back an ex-seminarian was talking about a "gay mafia" in the Church where there are groups of sexually active gay priests and he claims that the church is afraid to crack down on these sexually active gay priests because the number of priests would take another plunge simultaneously saying something about the current priestly population.

I actually know a priest who I strongly suspect may be gay...Massive gaydar blip... he has fruit flies... the church he runs is probably the most gay friendly catholic church the world has ever seen....

TithonusSyndrome · Post by **TithonusSyndrome** » 2008-02-06 12:43am

This is no surprise whatsoever. In the past five years I've come home to see my parents and accompanied them to Christmas mass, I've never seen one new Canadian priest among the Filipinos and Kenyans the Church transfered to that diocese. Their popularity is in decline in the first world and they know it, so they're mining their power base for reinforcements.

Kanastrous · Post by **Kanastrous** » 2008-02-06 02:26pm

All said and done, though, if the RCC has any utility as a counterbalance to a net increase in the number of Muslims, I'd prefer to see it survive...at least, until Islam hits the skids, which at this rate will probably be quite a while.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2008-02-06 02:36pm

In all honesty, I wonder about the emotional stability of a person who's a product of a modern Western society who wants to become a monk or nun.

I could imagine someone in a third world shithole seeking someplace that guarantees room and board, but a young person from London, Denver, Amsterdam?

FSTargetDrone · Post by **FSTargetDrone** » 2008-02-06 03:01pm

Frank Hipper wrote:In all honesty, I wonder about the emotional stability of a person who's a product of a modern Western society who wants to become a monk or nun.

I could imagine someone in a third world shithole seeking someplace that guarantees room and board, but a young person from London, Denver, Amsterdam?

Let's see, you have to pledge obedience, chastity, poverty for your entire life. No chance of marriage.

Better still, if you are a woman, you will never be able to reach the same levels of advancement of your male counterparts.

No, it's not at all hard to understand why so few people find such a life appealing. Those that do, who knows. But I think you're right about wondering why anyone does, at least from the first world.

Raesene · Post by **Raesene** » 2008-02-06 04:02pm

FSTargetdrone wrote:Let's see, you have to pledge obedience, chastity, poverty for your entire life. No chance of marriage.

Better still, if you are a woman, you will never be able to reach the same levels of advancement of your male counterparts.

I saw a documentary a few weeks ago about nuns who take care of a hospital in Austria.
The average age was definitely above 60, the hospital itself is part of a holding and mostly run by lay personnel (and following modern standard medical practices).

One of the nuns interviewed when asked about her reason why she joined answered very honestly, in my opinion. She entered a short time after WW2 after fleeing from the Sudetenland because of the security and stability the order could provide. Older nuns said that they didn't want to become housewives but have the opportunity to perform respected jobs like nurses, teachers or manage something within the convent.

So for some women (and with regard to some posts above, perhaps also men), entering a religious order could have been an escape from the role the society would have them fulfil - precursors to the dropouts ("Aussteiger" in german) who leave their jobs/families to hike the Himalaya or sail the world because they can't stand 'it' anymore.