Animatrix' "The Second Renaissance" pt. 2 question

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Post by Ryushikaze »

lance wrote:I have recently decided that "Bio-electrical energy" really means "soul power". It makes some sense that way.
It makes more sense that all the information given to the humans by the machines was a deliberate falsehood, designed to keep them reacting in the appropriate fashion.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that 'dark skies' never happened, and that the machines keep the sky cover above the city artificially for the effect. Costly, inefficient and stupid? Yes, but a stupidity that could exist.
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Post by Molyneux »

lance wrote:I have recently decided that "Bio-electrical energy" really means "soul power". It makes some sense that way.
Wouldn't that make the AIs a race of mechanical Metroids?
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Post by Oskuro »

Darth Wong wrote:The guy actually thinks the "man as electrical generator" idea makes sense "from a sci-fi perspective?" Is he a raving imbecile, or just a hopeless fanboy? His big stunning revelation is that the people in the Matrix are cyborgs because of their implants. Wow, what a genius.
I agree (it's a cyberpunk fansite, after all). I re-read the essay after posting the link, and it is indeed weaker than I remembered... I probably got spoilt by all those "rules of logic" used around here :roll:

Still, I think the angle is interesting in that it does away with all the mythical stuff, and presents a somewhat plausible interpretation of the plot (and I stress the somewhat). Of course, when re-reading the essay, all the Wachowski brothers wanking made me cringe... not to mention the myriad non-sequiteurs he uses to justify his interpretations... Yeah, hopeless fanboy indeed. I'd rather have the mootrix, I like cows.
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Post by That NOS Guy »

lance wrote:I have recently decided that "Bio-electrical energy" really means "soul power". It makes some sense that way.
James Brown alone could power worlds if that were the case.
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Post by Darth Wong »

I love the way Matrix apologists never ask why the Matrix actually has a built-in mechanism for unplugging humans and then releasing them unharmed into the environment rather than harvesting their biomass to sustain the other pod-humans. As if this makes sense if the Matrix is indeed a malevolent oppressor of humans. And nobody in the "resistance" ever questions why this mechanism exists, either.
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Post by Molyneux »

Darth Wong wrote:I love the way Matrix apologists never ask why the Matrix actually has a built-in mechanism for unplugging humans and then releasing them unharmed into the environment rather than harvesting their biomass to sustain the other pod-humans. As if this makes sense if the Matrix is indeed a malevolent oppressor of humans. And nobody in the "resistance" ever questions why this mechanism exists, either.
I figured it was a shunt into some kind of disposal/recycling system for dead humans; your version makes about as much sense, though.
The robots loved the humans so much, they gave them a free waterslide! :D
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Post by Darth Wong »

Molyneux wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I love the way Matrix apologists never ask why the Matrix actually has a built-in mechanism for unplugging humans and then releasing them unharmed into the environment rather than harvesting their biomass to sustain the other pod-humans. As if this makes sense if the Matrix is indeed a malevolent oppressor of humans. And nobody in the "resistance" ever questions why this mechanism exists, either.
I figured it was a shunt into some kind of disposal/recycling system for dead humans
If it's a recycling system, why would it dump people outside the facility into an unsecured pool of stagnant water? If it's a simple "throw out the trash" disposal system, why would it be so wasteful given that it is already established that they recycle human biomass, and why would it be too stupid to be able to detect whether a person is alive or dead?
; your version makes about as much sense, though.
The robots loved the humans so much, they gave them a free waterslide! :D
Or they actually feel that the people who wish to be free should be allowed to go their own way, as long as they don't build ships which interfere with the machine's systems and potentially cause much more trouble? Lots of other interpretations were possible before they made those shitty-ass sequels.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

I thought they hacked the system to allow Neo to be redirected to a convenient pool of water near their airship. That makes more sense to me than the location being where all useless bodies go after expiring.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I thought they hacked the system to allow Neo to be redirected to a convenient pool of water near their airship. That makes more sense to me than the location being where all useless bodies go after expiring.
I've worked in plenty of factories, and I've never seen one where the internal conveyor system had a built-in system for dumping merchandise into the street behind the plant. You can't "hack into it" and make this happen if some idiot didn't design the "dump merchandise out back" subsystem in the first place.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Then I guess the machines just suck at designing their plants and/or really don't need the humans in the way mentioned and so are benefactors, not oppressors.
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Post by Starglider »

Darth Wong wrote:If it's a recycling system, why would it dump people outside the facility into an unsecured pool of stagnant water?
I dimly recall rationalising this (when I first saw 'The Matrix') as a cleaning system; every so often the tubes would be flushed with water to remove slimey gunk accumulation, the crap getting washed out into that pool. The humans would have engaged the 'send body to recycling plant' program to get Neo into the tubes, then quickly switched it to the 'flush tubes with water' program to get him to come out into the wastewater pool.

Of course that wasn't a great rationalisation to start with and it was rendered unnecessary by the relevelation in the sequels that the machines were deliberately allowing (at least some) humans to escape.
Lots of other interpretations were possible before they made those shitty-ass sequels.
True, but any sane interpetation requires that the machines are keeping the humans around due to some deep seated 'preserve some vestige of humanity' goal (or 'don't exterminate humanity' restriction), as there really is no practical use for thousands of humans in tubes that couldn't be met much better some other way.
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Post by NecronLord »

Of course, a sane interpretation is a waste of time, because the writers, in this case, are just deeply stupid.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Starglider wrote:I dimly recall rationalising this (when I first saw 'The Matrix') as a cleaning system; every so often the tubes would be flushed with water to remove slimey gunk accumulation, the crap getting washed out into that pool. The humans would have engaged the 'send body to recycling plant' program to get Neo into the tubes, then quickly switched it to the 'flush tubes with water' program to get him to come out into the wastewater pool.
Except that in a real factory, there is no reason to build waste-water drainage which can inadvertently dump such large objects, especially when you need those objects for other purposes. Even the enormous sewer systems of modern cities (which handle vastly more fluid than any such periodic cleaning system would require) are designed so people can't accidentally fall in; something as simple as a grate prevents that. Once again, after working in plenty of factories which had to dump plenty of waste material on a daily basis, I never saw any factory where you would make a drainage system capable of handling such unnecessarily large solid objects.
Of course that wasn't a great rationalisation to start with and it was rendered unnecessary by the relevelation in the sequels that the machines were deliberately allowing (at least some) humans to escape.
Well, one is really left with the only two explanations being A) absolutely incomprehensible machine stupidity or B) deliberate permissiveness. But the Wachowski brothers oddly missed the appeal of their own movie, such as it was. The Matrix only worked as a dream; as a story which did not really hold up to literal scrutiny. It only worked as a dream-like allegory for the way in which we are all anesthetized in real-life by the media-generated information in which we surround ourselves. At the end of the first movie, I could totally imagine Neo suddenly waking up in his cubicle, and it wouldn't be out of character with the rest of the movie at all.

Once those Wachowski imbeciles thought that the story was profound in and of itself, they went right off the rails. The story simply doesn't hold up to further scrutiny, or any attempt to create a logical backstory. In fact, it only works as long as one is not sure whether any of it is real, which is why so many people were hoping in vain that there would be some major twist at the end.
Lots of other interpretations were possible before they made those shitty-ass sequels.
True, but any sane interpetation requires that the machines are keeping the humans around due to some deep seated 'preserve some vestige of humanity' goal (or 'don't exterminate humanity' restriction), as there really is no practical use for thousands of humans in tubes that couldn't be met much better some other way.
Agreed. Excepting, of course, the interpretation that the entire thing is a simulation, or that the "real world" is a simulation within a simulation.
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Post by Starglider »

Darth Wong wrote:Except that in a real factory, there is no reason to build waste-water drainage which can inadvertently dump such large objects, especially when you need those objects for other purposes.
True. I couldn't think of any rationalisation at all for the vast electrical arcs crackling between the 'power station' towers; they're simultaneously a huge, pointless waste of energy and a massive safety hazard.
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J. Parish probably gave the best commentary on 'The Matrix' series.
Thumbnail Theatre: The Matrix wrote:Neo: Hello, this is Neo. I know you think this is the end, but in fact, we still have two really lousy sequels to go. I apologize in advance.
Thumbnail Theatre: The Matrix: Reloaded wrote:Oracle: And I apologize for being unable to speak to you in anything but trite, cryptic aphorisms, but that would require the writers to sit down and actually flesh out the plot rather than make things up as they go along. Candy?

Neo: No thanks, old lady dude. I need some time to think, and maybe a protracted sequence laden with cartoonish violence to help clear my head.

Smith: Hello, Mr. Anderson. Here's the violence you requested.

Neo: No way, dude. I totally killed you in the last movie.

Smith: Why, yes, you did. But the guiding philosophy behind this sequel is that anything which was cool in the first movie should be rehashed to the point of tedium, even if it's never properly explained.

Neo: That would explain why there are now a hundred of you, I guess.
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Darth Wong wrote:If it's a recycling system, why would it dump people outside the facility into an unsecured pool of stagnant water? If it's a simple "throw out the trash" disposal system, why would it be so wasteful given that it is already established that they recycle human biomass, and why would it be too stupid to be able to detect whether a person is alive or dead?
When I watched it, I assumed that the pool was a vat intended to digest dead people. Morpheus et al then hacked the system and made it think Neo was dead. Of course, this means very poor network and physical security, but hey, they can hack into the Matrix wirelessly, so what the hell?
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Post by RogueIce »

Darth Wong wrote:
Molyneux wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I love the way Matrix apologists never ask why the Matrix actually has a built-in mechanism for unplugging humans and then releasing them unharmed into the environment rather than harvesting their biomass to sustain the other pod-humans. As if this makes sense if the Matrix is indeed a malevolent oppressor of humans. And nobody in the "resistance" ever questions why this mechanism exists, either.
I figured it was a shunt into some kind of disposal/recycling system for dead humans
If it's a recycling system, why would it dump people outside the facility into an unsecured pool of stagnant water? If it's a simple "throw out the trash" disposal system, why would it be so wasteful given that it is already established that they recycle human biomass, and why would it be too stupid to be able to detect whether a person is alive or dead?
; your version makes about as much sense, though.
The robots loved the humans so much, they gave them a free waterslide! :D
Or they actually feel that the people who wish to be free should be allowed to go their own way, as long as they don't build ships which interfere with the machine's systems and potentially cause much more trouble? Lots of other interpretations were possible before they made those shitty-ass sequels.
That makes sense. Wasn't there some robot that came along and saw Neo sitting up in his pod? If they're so evil and out to Kill All Humans, why didn't that thing just kill him? I got the impression it was that caretaker or whatever it was that activiated the flushing system, which would make sense in a "well gee, he woke up, lemme check him out...oh he's alive, I guess we'll dump him".

I suppose then they figure they'll send him to the water and he can live on his own in the wastelands if he wants to. And at least he'll survive his dunking. Which is why they dumped him butt naked into a pool of water instead of doing something more gentle in getting rid of him. Or something.

Unless you want to say they use dumb "logic" to say 'human wake up, it is waste, dump as all waste' or something. Yeah...

Incidently, how evil were the Agents in the first movie, outside of Smith mindfucking Morpheus? I'd say you could assume the Agents are just in place to deal with those who figure it out and exploit the nature of the Matrix or something, rather than being there solely to deal with Zion terrorists (although they do that, too). I guess sort of like the "there is no spoon" kid who I'm guessing was not one of the "pirate signal" people. Or at least such was the original mission of the Agents, before Zion became an issue.
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Post by 2000AD »

RogueIce wrote: That makes sense. Wasn't there some robot that came along and saw Neo sitting up in his pod? If they're so evil and out to Kill All Humans, why didn't that thing just kill him? I got the impression it was that caretaker or whatever it was that activiated the flushing system, which would make sense in a "well gee, he woke up, lemme check him out...oh he's alive, I guess we'll dump him".

I suppose then they figure they'll send him to the water and he can live on his own in the wastelands if he wants to. And at least he'll survive his dunking. Which is why they dumped him butt naked into a pool of water instead of doing something more gentle in getting rid of him. Or something.
It probably would have killed him as a big point was made about how atrophied his muscles were. He could barely stay afloat for the minute or so before they picked him up.
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2000AD wrote:It probably would have killed him as a big point was made about how atrophied his muscles were. He could barely stay afloat for the minute or so before they picked him up.
Whoops, forgot about that. Huh. So then why would they dump them in that pool, unless they simply see humans who wake up as waste to be disposed of, and don't really care what happens to them after that (which would probably explain how they got their ship right next to the Matrix farm building, for some reason, even though it'd be suicide to go to the Machine City).
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Post by Darth Wong »

Of course, the fact that an adult could sit up under his own power with abdominal muscles that had never been used in his entire life was eleven different kinds of stupid all on its own ...
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The very fact that he looked like a moderately normally developed young adult to begin with was.
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Post by Oskuro »

That's because all interpretations of the Matrix are WRONG!

The movie is actually an infomercial for subliminal muscle training! Get fit while you sleep!



And, seriously, the first time I saw the movie, I kept wondering why the tubes Neo slides down didn't have grinders, as real life waste disposal has.
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Post by Gandalf »

Darth Wong wrote:Of course, the fact that an adult could sit up under his own power with abdominal muscles that had never been used in his entire life was eleven different kinds of stupid all on its own ...
While we're here, why weren't all of the white people in Zion really pale? These people would have never seen the sun. Does Zion have tanning booths? Who told people about the health benefits of the sun?

You know what would have made life easy for the machines? Instead of an early 21st century world, make the world into the 12th century. People wouldn't dare break away from normalcy for fear of being burnt at the stake or something.
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Post by brianeyci »

I think Mike's idea would really work if the final scene was Neo and Morpheus coming to the realization they've killed so many... and the machines have killed none, not a single one. Agents taking over people or AI's is not a problem -- it's software, they could just be taken temporarily offline like sleep and put back in. Or if they can't be put back in, relocated to any one of a hundred worlds the machines have going on for different kinds of people.

Then Smith comes out and his whole rant about humans being like a virus, like locusts, consuming and consuming and destroying everything makes sense as Smith shows them the past. When Neo demands to see the outside, Smith shows him it and it's not a devastated wasteland or even abandoned cities. These are all long gone millenia ago, and only sand remains. An entire planet full of sand and sun, and solar panels everywhere.

Then you figure out Morpheus was wrong about every-fucking-thing. The machines don't need the humans to live -- they've got more than enough sun. The humans need the machines. Then Smith gives Neo a choice about whether he wants to repeat the past. Neo, Morpheus and Trinity argue for awhile about the implications of releasing millions of people in the middle of a sandy nothingness and they finally agree, The Matrix is the only way to go. Smith takes something out of his pocket, and it's the pills from the start. Weaving tilts his head as the trio swallow the blue pill to return to their eternal bliss.
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Post by NecronLord »

brianeyci wrote:I think Mike's idea would really work if the final scene was Neo and Morpheus coming to the realization they've killed so many... and the machines have killed none, not a single one. Agents taking over people or AI's is not a problem -- it's software, they could just be taken temporarily offline like sleep and put back in. Or if they can't be put back in, relocated to any one of a hundred worlds the machines have going on for different kinds of people.

Then Smith comes out and his whole rant about humans being like a virus, like locusts, consuming and consuming and destroying everything makes sense as Smith shows them the past. When Neo demands to see the outside, Smith shows him it and it's not a devastated wasteland or even abandoned cities. These are all long gone millenia ago, and only sand remains. An entire planet full of sand and sun, and solar panels everywhere.

Then you figure out Morpheus was wrong about every-fucking-thing. The machines don't need the humans to live -- they've got more than enough sun. The humans need the machines. Then Smith gives Neo a choice about whether he wants to repeat the past. Neo, Morpheus and Trinity argue for awhile about the implications of releasing millions of people in the middle of a sandy nothingness and they finally agree, The Matrix is the only way to go. Smith takes something out of his pocket, and it's the pills from the start. Weaving tilts his head as the trio swallow the blue pill to return to their eternal bliss.
You know... That would have actually been pretty good.

You'd have to utterly re-write the sequels, mind you, but still.

Of course, I'm quite fond of the 'asteroid impact/other' wipes out the world. Machines put humans in storage... until what? Regeneration of the bio-sphere? They find some means of terraforming the Earth or some other world?
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