The people who knew Palpatine status

[Havok]

You know, Darth Vader's first name IS Darth. It wouldn't take much of a rocket scientist to put two and two together. Even without knowing the Rule of Two. It wouldn't take more than a cursory look through some war history to at LEAST figure Vader for a Sith, and since he is Palpatine's right hand...

[wjs7744]

You know, Darth Vader's first name IS Darth. It wouldn't take much of a rocket scientist to put two and two together. Even without knowing the Rule of Two. It wouldn't take more than a cursory look through some war history to at LEAST figure Vader for a Sith, and since he is Palpatine's right hand...

I don't know about that. I mean, we know that 'Darth' is an honorific used by the Sith, but how common is this knowledge in universe? Like, when Obi-Wan calls him 'Darth' in ANH, is this just because Lucas hadn't decided on the details yet, or what? From the films, I can't think of him running into a Sith that actually used the title.

[Havok]

You know, Darth Vader's first name IS Darth. It wouldn't take much of a rocket scientist to put two and two together. Even without knowing the Rule of Two. It wouldn't take more than a cursory look through some war history to at LEAST figure Vader for a Sith, and since he is Palpatine's right hand...

I don't know about that. I mean, we know that 'Darth' is an honorific used by the Sith, but how common is this knowledge in universe? Like, when Obi-Wan calls him 'Darth' in ANH, is this just because Lucas hadn't decided on the details yet, or what? From the films, I can't think of him running into a Sith that actually used the title.

There are quite a few big wars the Republic fought that were against the Sith. Even the Jedi/Sith battles had to have some documentation. Any historian worth his salt would be able to figure it out. As for "Darth" when Obi Wan says it in ANH, it's said as an insult and a reminder by Obi Wan as to who Anakin once was. At least that is how I perceive it now, with the prequels in the books.

[TC Pilot]

Keep in mind, though, that the last time the Republic had ever fought the Sith was a thousand years prior. That's quite a long time for people to get worried over someone's name, of all things.

[wjs7744]

There are quite a few big wars the Republic fought that were against the Sith. Even the Jedi/Sith battles had to have some documentation. Any historian worth his salt would be able to figure it out. As for "Darth" when Obi Wan says it in ANH, it's said as an insult and a reminder by Obi Wan as to who Anakin once was. At least that is how I perceive it now, with the prequels in the books.

Well obviously historians who study the Sith will figure it out! What I'm saying is that it might not be common knowledge. The Jedi probably do know, although even that isn't a given, seeing as they haven't really interacted with them in centuries. Even then, the fact that Palpatine has a Sith Lord working for him doesn't automatically make him a Sith himself (though I can't think of any examples of Sith working for others, mind you).

[Havok]

TC Pilot
wjs7744
How familiar is the title Ceasar, or Kahn or Pharaoh?
Why, in a galaxy of TRILLIONS do you assume there isn't some simple equivalent of the internet or the History Channel or movies?

[TC Pilot]

I'm sure everyone thought Cesar Chavez was going to try to found a Second Empire with an army of migrant workers.

You're expecting people to come to the "sensible" conclusion that because a major Imperial official's first name is "Darth," he must be part of a millenia-dead religious cult and then assume that that must mean Palpatine (shouldn't he be called Darth, too, then?) is a Sith too.

Sure, some whacked-out conspiracy-theory nut-job might draw that kind of connection, but to think a man's name is proof he's a Sith Lord is... well, silly.

[The Spartan]

The Jedi probably do know, although even that isn't a given, seeing as they haven't really interacted with them in centuries.

While a normal person might not know what Darth means, Obi Wan would have studied Jedi history extensively as part of his training and would damn well know what it meant.

[Havok]

I'm sure everyone thought Cesar Chavez was going to try to found a Second Empire with an army of migrant workers.

Nice dodge on people NOT remembering thousand year old names/titles though.

You're expecting people to come to the "sensible" conclusion that because a major Imperial official's first name is "Darth," AND he uses a bright red lightsaber and chokes people with the Force, he must be part of a millenia-dead religious cult and then assume that that must mean Palpatine (shouldn't he be called Darth, too, then?) is a Sith too.

Sure, some whacked-out conspiracy-theory nut-job might draw that kind of connection, but to think a man's name is proof he's a Sith Lord is... well, silly.

There, fixed that for you. I didn't say it was a "sensible" conclusion that the general public would come too, I said that any historian worth his salt would be able to figure out what a "Darth" was. And that any interested person would probably also be able to surmise it as well. (The reference to the internet and history channel)

[wjs7744]

TC Pilot
wjs7744
How familiar is the title Ceasar, or Kahn or Pharaoh?
Why, in a galaxy of TRILLIONS do you assume there isn't some simple equivalent of the internet or the History Channel or movies?

Because we aren't talking about the head of state here, we're talking about the everyday honorific equivalent of 'Mr'. Do you know what the ancient Egyptian equivalent of 'Mr' was? (If by some freak coincidence you happen to be a student of ancient Egyptian lore, before you rattle of a smart-arse response consider that if only scholars in the relevant field know, that is basically a concession)

While a normal person might not know what Darth means, Obi Wan would have studied Jedi history extensively as part of his training and would damn well know what it meant.

True, although I wouldnt be too sure of that. IIRC, in TPM Qui-Gon wasn't even sure if Maul was a Sith or not. We really don't know how prominantly history figures in the Jedi training.

I'm not saying that it's certain that people were in the dark, but it's hardly a given either.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You act like Imperial Faux Noise features Lord Vader Force-choking evil doers and dicing people with his red blade. The veracity of his power could not be that great if the Imperial Navy's man on the fucking Death Star dismissed it out of hand before getting the shit choked out of him.

[Havok]

TC Pilot
wjs7744
How familiar is the title Ceasar, or Kahn or Pharaoh?
Why, in a galaxy of TRILLIONS do you assume there isn't some simple equivalent of the internet or the History Channel or movies?

Because we aren't talking about the head of state here, we're talking about the everyday honorific equivalent of 'Mr'. Do you know what the ancient Egyptian equivalent of 'Mr' was? (If by some freak coincidence you happen to be a student of ancient Egyptian lore, before you rattle of a smart-arse response consider that if only scholars in the relevant field know, that is basically a concession)

What the hell are you talking about? Since when is "Darth" the same as "Mr."? Even, when the Sith were at their HEIGHT of power "Darth" was considered a very HIGH title. So much so that it was, IIRC, no longer allowed to be used before Bane brought it back, because just claiming the title divided up the Sith ranks. Further more, you helped my point. No one remembers what a two thousand year old common title is, but they DAMN well remember the title of a person that brought war to the world... or a galaxy.

While a normal person might not know what Darth means, Obi Wan would have studied Jedi history extensively as part of his training and would damn well know what it meant.

True, although I wouldnt be too sure of that. IIRC, in TPM Qui-Gon wasn't even sure if Maul was a Sith or not. We really don't know how prominantly history figures in the Jedi training.

I'm not saying that it's certain that people were in the dark, but it's hardly a given either.

Jeebus. You do know the difference between not knowing WHAT a Sith Lord is and not knowing WHO is a Sith Lord don't you?

[Havok]

You act like Imperial Faux Noise features Lord Vader Force-choking evil doers and dicing people with his red blade. The veracity of his power could not be that great if the Imperial Navy's man on the fucking Death Star dismissed it out of hand before getting the shit choked out of him.

Believe what you see, not what you hear. Seeing is believing. etc.
"Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerers ways Lord Vader. You sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes or given you clairvoyance enough to find the-"

They were quite aware of Vader's "power", but just did not believe in it. He changed their minds quickly, as we see throughout the rest of the movies.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You act like Imperial Faux Noise features Lord Vader Force-choking evil doers and dicing people with his red blade. The veracity of his power could not be that great if the Imperial Navy's man on the fucking Death Star dismissed it out of hand before getting the shit choked out of him.

Believe what you see, not what you hear. Seeing is believing. etc.
"Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerers ways Lord Vader. You sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes or given you clairvoyance enough to find the-"

They were quite aware of Vader's "power", but just did not believe in it. He changed their minds quickly, as we see throughout the rest of the movies.

Yeah, and if it had been broadcasted broadly such that anyone would know it was legit, or that the university history profs knew, the powerful in the Empire certainly would.

Seeing is believing might be clever if I was arguing Vader did not have Force powers. What is important here is that someone who should've been in the know according to your outlook was willing to wager his life if he was wrong.

[wjs7744]

What the hell are you talking about? Since when is "Darth" the same as "Mr."? Even, when the Sith were at their HEIGHT of power "Darth" was considered a very HIGH title. So much so that it was, IIRC, no longer allowed to be used before Bane brought it back, because just claiming the title divided up the Sith ranks. Further more, you helped my point. No one remembers what a two thousand year old common title is, but they DAMN well remember the title of a person that brought war to the world... or a galaxy.

My argument on this point was based off the film, when the first thing that Palpatine does upon taking Anakin as an apprentice is give him the title 'Darth'. This tells me that it's the standard title for Sith. Of course, seeing as we are arguing about the historical use of the title rather than the way Palpy used it, and I haven't read any books from that period, you may be right on this. This still only affects what people may have though of Vader, seeing as Palpatine calls himself "Emporer" rather than "Darth". (BTW, Palpatine was the one who plunged the galaxy into war, not Vader... just so you know)

True, although I wouldnt be too sure of that. IIRC, in TPM Qui-Gon wasn't even sure if Maul was a Sith or not. We really don't know how prominantly history figures in the Jedi training.

I'm not saying that it's certain that people were in the dark, but it's hardly a given either.

Jeebus. You do know the difference between not knowing WHAT a Sith Lord is and not knowing WHO is a Sith Lord don't you?

Of course. And seeing as your argument rests on the idea that "force-using guy with red lightsaber" = "sith", my argument stands. Qui-Gon wasn't sure if a force using guy with a red lightsaber was a Sith, yet you expect it to be common knowledge? Remember that we ARE talking about who was a Sith Lord.

[Havok]

You act like Imperial Faux Noise features Lord Vader Force-choking evil doers and dicing people with his red blade. The veracity of his power could not be that great if the Imperial Navy's man on the fucking Death Star dismissed it out of hand before getting the shit choked out of him.

Believe what you see, not what you hear. Seeing is believing. etc.
"Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerers ways Lord Vader. You sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes or given you clairvoyance enough to find the-"

They were quite aware of Vader's "power", but just did not believe in it. He changed their minds quickly, as we see throughout the rest of the movies.

Yeah, and if it had been broadcasted broadly such that anyone would know it was legit, or that the university history profs knew, the powerful in the Empire certainly would.

Seeing is believing might be clever if I was arguing Vader did not have Force powers. What is important here is that someone who should've been in the know according to your outlook was willing to wager his life if he was wrong.

The powerful did know. Tarkin knew that Vader's power was real and others of his rank and stature. And it isn't about us knowing, but the people in universe. Just because some idiot General didn't "know" means what exactly? He certainly had heard, even though he chose not to believe it.
The same guy who also didn't believe the rebels could destroy the DS by the way. Apparently he was willing to wager his life quite a bit.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The powerful did know. Tarkin knew that Vader's power was real and others of his rank and stature. And it isn't about us knowing, but the people in universe.

Tarkin did not know that Vader was a Sith Lord; and thought it odd he believed in and used the Force, as well as a lightsaber, although both Jedi and Sith were supposed to be extinct. His suspicions do not equal everyone being sure that it was so.

I already said this. Have you been paying attention at all?

Just because some idiot General didn't "know" means what exactly?

This "idiot General" was actually Admiral Motti, who was at the very least Tarkin's naval chief of staff for the Death Star (that silly Imperial siege craft accounting for the material investment of tens of millions of Star Destroyers and the firepower of many more) and possibly his overall naval forces CinC for the Oversector Outer, which included nearly all of the Outer Rim Territories.

What a lightweight.

He certainly had heard, even though he chose not to believe it. The same guy who also didn't believe the rebels could destroy the DS by the way. Apparently he was willing to wager his life quite a bit.

Having heard rumors is not the same thing as seeing and knowing; and certainly does not mean that it should be well-confirmed knowledge amongst most, especially university history professors who are not in the know of the Imperial ruling class.

Do you really not get this?

[Havok]

My argument on this point was based off the film, when the first thing that Palpatine does upon taking Anakin as an apprentice is give him the title 'Darth'. This tells me that it's the standard title for Sith. Of course, seeing as we are arguing about the historical use of the title rather than the way Palpy used it, and I haven't read any books from that period, you may be right on this. This still only affects what people may have though of Vader, seeing as Palpatine calls himself "Emporer" rather than "Darth".

Darth is the "common" title for a Sith Lord. And the way Palpatine uses it or historically, it carries the same weight. It is the title of the leader of the Sith, in it's ancient form, or the title of the two Sith in Bane's Order. It is still very unique and certainly not common.

(BTW, Palpatine was the one who plunged the galaxy into war, not Vader... just so you know)

Yes, thank you. I was referring to the Sith of the past.

True, although I wouldnt be too sure of that. IIRC, in TPM Qui-Gon wasn't even sure if Maul was a Sith or not. We really don't know how prominantly history figures in the Jedi training.

I'm not saying that it's certain that people were in the dark, but it's hardly a given either.

Jeebus. You do know the difference between not knowing WHAT a Sith Lord is and not knowing WHO is a Sith Lord don't you?

Of course. And seeing as your argument rests on the idea that "force-using guy with red lightsaber" = "sith", my argument stands. Qui-Gon wasn't sure if a force using guy with a red lightsaber was a Sith, yet you expect it to be common knowledge? Remember that we ARE talking about who was a Sith Lord.

Actually, Qui-Gon was sure that he was a Sith Lord. The rest of the council didn't believe him. And no, my argument rests on the idea that "Force-using guy with red lightsaber who goes by DARTH" = "Sith". Maul's name at the time of his first encounter with Qui-Gon was unknown, but if he had said: "Hi, I am Darth Maul." It would not have been a question.
And again, no. We are talking about who knew Palpatine was a Sith Lord, not "who" was a Sith Lord.

HOWEVER, I am going to concede my argument, because after some reading, Vader is for the most part referred to as Lord and not Darth. The only time, outside of the Jedi, that I can remember or find where someone calls him Darth is Leia on the Tantive IV in ANH.

[TC Pilot]

Nice dodge on people NOT remembering thousand year old names/titles though.

What are you talking about? I never said the galaxy at large forgot that a millenia-old sect of religious schismatics used "Darth" as a title. I said that it would be stupid to equate the actions of a millenia-old sect of religious schismatics with a guy who has the same name.

There, fixed that for you. I didn't say it was a "sensible" conclusion that the general public would come too, I said that any historian worth his salt would be able to figure out what a "Darth" was.

And I quote....

You know, Darth Vader's first name IS Darth. It wouldn't take much of a rocket scientist to put two and two together. Even without knowing the Rule of Two. It wouldn't take more than a cursory look through some war history to at LEAST figure Vader for a Sith, and since he is Palpatine's right hand...

"Darth" isn't his title, it's his first name. That's why he's called "Lord Vader," "My Lord," etc. and his daughter is called "Lady Vader" by his vassals. A man's name that happens to correspond to a historically prominent ancient religion's ruling title, and then concluding based on that he too is a part of that cult, and then concluding that it must mean the Emperor too is of that cult, is absurd.

And that any interested person would probably also be able to surmise it as well. (The reference to the internet and history channel)

Yes, I know you said that. I also said that kind of thinking is ridiculous.

[Havok]

The powerful did know. Tarkin knew that Vader's power was real and others of his rank and stature. And it isn't about us knowing, but the people in universe.

Tarkin did not know that Vader was a Sith Lord; and thought it odd he believed in and used the Force, as well as a lightsaber, although both Jedi and Sith were supposed to be extinct. His suspicions do not equal everyone being sure that it was so.

I already said this. Have you been paying attention at all?

I'm not saying Tarkin knew he was a Sith Lord, I'm saying Tarkin knew his power was real, as you pointed out.

Just because some idiot General didn't "know" means what exactly?

This "idiot General" was actually Admiral Motti, who was at the very least Tarkin's naval chief of staff for the Death Star (that silly Imperial siege craft accounting for the material investment of tens of millions of Star Destroyers and the firepower of many more) and possibly his overall naval forces CinC for the Oversector Outer, which included nearly all of the Outer Rim Territories.

What a lightweight.

Oh no! I got Motti and Tagge's ranks confused. Are you going to be OK? That still changes nothing to the fact that he at the very least had heard of Vader's "sorcerers way" and the fact the he just didn't believe in them or the stories about them.
And what is your point of touting his rank? To show that he was even a bigger idiot for not listening to the cautions of his fellow General?

He certainly had heard, even though he chose not to believe it. The same guy who also didn't believe the rebels could destroy the DS by the way. Apparently he was willing to wager his life quite a bit.

Having heard rumors is not the same thing as seeing and knowing;

Didn't I already say that?

You act like Imperial Faux Noise features Lord Vader Force-choking evil doers and dicing people with his red blade. The veracity of his power could not be that great if the Imperial Navy's man on the fucking Death Star dismissed it out of hand before getting the shit choked out of him.

Believe what you see, not what you hear. Seeing is believing. etc.
"Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerers ways Lord Vader. You sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes or given you clairvoyance enough to find the-"

They were quite aware of Vader's "power", but just did not believe in it. He changed their minds quickly, as we see throughout the rest of the movies.

and certainly does not mean that it should be well-confirmed knowledge amongst most, especially university history professors who are not in the know of the Imperial ruling class.

Do you really not get this?

I get it just fine. What you don't get is that any war history buff that hears the name DARTH* attached to Vader, and sees a LIGHTSABER on his fucking belt and has a cousin who heard about this one guy in the military that roomed with a guy Vader choked by magic, if he has a quarter of a brain, can figure out what Darth means.

BTW, Tarkin and Motti both refer to Vader as "The Dark Lord of the Sith" in Death Star. Just sayin'.

*But like I said... I concede my points.

[Havok]

Nice dodge on people NOT remembering thousand year old names/titles though.

What are you talking about? I never said the galaxy at large forgot that a millenia-old sect of religious schismatics used "Darth" as a title. I said that it would be stupid to equate the actions of a millenia-old sect of religious schismatics with a guy who has the same name.

Why? Those "schismatics" had tried to take control of the galaxy on several occasions. And now, you have a guy with the same name, title or not, as the right hand man of the guy who just took control of the galaxy. Who, by the way, just happens to carry a lightsaber on his belt. Also, your example of Cesar Chavez is flawed, as Caesar is not viewed in a negative light, and some might even view it positively. It would be more like a kid getting named Fuhrer. Not gonna happen.

There, fixed that for you. I didn't say it was a "sensible" conclusion that the general public would come too, I said that any historian worth his salt would be able to figure out what a "Darth" was.

And I quote....

You know, Darth Vader's first name IS Darth. It wouldn't take much of a rocket scientist to put two and two together. Even without knowing the Rule of Two. It wouldn't take more than a cursory look through some war history to at LEAST figure Vader for a Sith, and since he is Palpatine's right hand...

You got me there.

"Darth" isn't his title, it's his first name. That's why he's called "Lord Vader," "My Lord," etc. and his daughter is called "Lady Vader" by his vassals. A man's name that happens to correspond to a historically prominent ancient religion's ruling title, and then concluding based on that he too is a part of that cult, and then concluding that it must mean the Emperor too is of that cult, is absurd.

I'm sorry... Darth is his first name? When did that happen? Darth is a title. Bane himself said so in his book... or maybe the comic, but it was one of them.

And that any interested person would probably also be able to surmise it as well. (The reference to the internet and history channel)

Yes, I know you said that. I also said that kind of thinking is ridiculous.

Why? Are people in the SW universe stupid? Do they not have history books? Some form of accessible data storage? Entertainment? The Sith aren't just an obscure footnote in history. They brought war to the galaxy several times. Darth is a name strongly connected with that history.

[TC Pilot]

Why? Those "schismatics" had tried to take control of the galaxy on several occasions. And now, you have a guy with the same name, title or not, as the right hand man of the guy who just took control of the galaxy. Who, by the way, just happens to carry a lightsaber on his belt.

A thousand years ago, Scandanavia was dominated by the Vikings. No one expects hordes of Scandanavians to swoop south and pillage and rape with savage impunity. Same for the Mongols. Same for the Arabs.

Also, your example of Cesar Chavez is flawed, as Caesar is not viewed in a negative light, and some might even view it positively. It would be more like a kid getting named Fuhrer. Not gonna happen.

What difference does it make it "Darth" is positive or negative? Do you seriously think a thousand years from now, "Fuhrer" will be as powerful a memory as it is barely sixty years after World War II? Hell, even now, if a kid was unfortunate enough to be named "Fuhrer," no sane individual would see it as Hitler Redux, just a kid with stupid parents.

I'm sorry... Darth is his first name? When did that happen?

If "Darth" isn't part of his name, what is his name? Just "Vader"? "Anakin Vader"?

Darth is a title. Bane himself said so in his book... or maybe the comic, but it was one of them.

I should have clarified that it's his name as far as the galaxy's concerned.

Why? Are people in the SW universe stupid? Do they not have history books? Some form of accessible data storage? Entertainment? The Sith aren't just an obscure footnote in history. They brought war to the galaxy several times.

One could easily argue they are stupid. The Empire in many cases rewrote history, claiming, for instance, that Mon Calamari was only discovered after the formation of the Empire.

Darth is a name strongly connected with that history.

Of course it is. It's also incredibly stupid to think Joe Nobody is going to see "Darth Vader," and think "Galaxy-conquering Sith Lord from a thousand years ago!". Why should anyone in their right mind be worried that a guy is named after some long-dead evildoers? Maybe on one of those fifty million Imperial worlds with quadrillions of beings, someone thought "Darth" sounded like a good name. Or maybe he's an evil mage from a religious cult.

Just remember, this is a thousand years we're talking about.

[Lord Revan]

the thing that Lord Bane's (aka Darth Bane's (as he didn't want to use the lord title)) orginal plan was to hide the Sith in half truths and rumors, officially the Sith lords had been dead since 10 years after the Ruusan reformation when the last of them was killed after killing 5 jedi (though that wasn't the actual Sith lord but rather a weak force sensitive driven mad by the use of dark side powers on him, the jedi just drew the wrong conclution (as was intended))

so do we know that even those who knew what the honorific Darth meant belived that Vader was an actual Sith lord.

EDIT:fixed the amount of Jedi killed by Darth Bane and Darth Zannah (and whose deaths were used to frame Darovit (Zannah's cousin) as the sole surviving dark lord) and fixed a typo

[Oskuro]

The way I see it, a force user does not have to be a Jedi or a Sith, as those are organizations not names for force-user types. So, probably, those who know of Vader's power justify it as simply "he's a force user", but do not understand him as a member of the Sith "institution".

Furthermore, during TPM and AotC it is evident that the Sith as a group is something regarded as legendary and obscure, even by the Jedi, who belive them to be extinct, and, to avoid exposing their weakness, the Jedi (as stated by Yoda in AotC) decided not to make public the existence of the Sith Lords.

All this might lead to the conclusion that the concept of the Sith as a present-day organization might not be so common, and as such it's easier for both Vader and Palpatine to hide it (Pretty much like the Viking Raiders analogy presented before on this thread).

I was under the impression that, by painting the Jedi as traitors (in RotS), the Sith might actually be seen in a less negative light, and also,
Vader was probably exalted as the only Jedi truly loyal to the Republic (Empire), and the "hero" who helped defeat the Jedi Council plot, wich would justify his powers in the eyes of the public.


All in all, even if people recogniced Vader as a Sith, they need not be aware of the "rule of two" and assume Palpatine is a Sith too. In fact, the impression I got the first time I watched the original trilogy wa that the Emperor was NOT a major force-user, just a very manipulative and knowledgable leader... That is, until he unleashed his force-lightning.