Die Windpower, Die!

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Admiral Valdemar
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Die Windpower, Die!

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Say goodbye to the ambitious wind turbine craze. Guess that means solar for the UK. Oh, wait... :P
The Times wrote:Wind farms `a threat to national security’

Magnus Linklater and Dominic Kennedy


Ambitious plans to meet up to a third of Britain’s energy needs from offshore wind farms are in jeopardy because the Ministry of Defence objects that the turbines interfere with its radar.

The MoD has lodged last-minute objections to at least four onshore wind farms in the line of sight of its stations on the east coast because they make it impossible to spot aircraft, The Times has learnt. The same objections are likely to apply to wind turbines in the North Sea, part of the massive renewable energy project announced by John Hutton, the Energy Secretary, barely two months ago. They would be directly in line with the three principal radar defence stations, Brizlee Wood, Saxton Wold and Trimingham on the Northumberland, Yorkshire and Norfolk coasts.

Giving evidence to a planning inquiry last October, a senior MoD expert said that the turbines create a hole in radar coverage so that aircraft flying overhead are not detectable. In written evidence, Squadron Leader Chris Breedon said: “This obscuration occurs regardless of the height of the aircraft, of the radar and of the turbine.” He described the discovery as alarming.

The findings were the result of trials carried out in 2004 and 2005 but the MoD appears to have toughened its stance more recently. It now objects to almost all wind farms in the line of sight of its radar stations.

The change of policy has prompted fury among developers, who had previously been told that there were no defence implications. They have now written a letter of protest to Mr Hutton and Des Browne, the Defence Secretary, pointing out that millions of pounds of investment are at risk.

The MoD says that Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff, has given a firm direction that radar surveillance capability must not be degraded. It denied that it would make automatic objections, saying: “All wind farm applications are assessed on a site-by-site basis. The MoD is committed to government targets for renewable energy and whenever possible we seek to work with wind farm developers to find a mutually acceptable solution.”

It did, however, add: “We look at whether turbines will be in line of sight, ie, if the radar can see the turbine. If it can, we know there will be an effect as we have evidence from trials. We decide whether line-of-site effect is manageable or not.”

Squadron Leader Breedon said that not only did the turbines create a radar hole directly over a wind farm but there was also a shadow beyond them that prevented low-flying aircraft being detected. He said: “The MoD trial results were alarming as they confirmed a greater impact than that previously thought. This in turn required a more robust approach to wind turbine assessments.”

The British Wind Energy Association said: “This is a very real issue for us, but we are now working with government. We are hopeful of seeing progress on this soon so that we can reach the ambitious 2020 targets for renewable power in the UK.”

The Department for Business Enterprise and Regulatory Reform has described the MoD’s protests as holding objections. It has created an Aviation Working Group bringing together the wind energy industry, MoD and Civil Aviation Authority to agree guidelines to solve conflicts.
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Post by FSTargetDrone »

So, all you need to do is merely build an extensive and expensive ring of sea-based radar towers situated such that the turbines are in between the land and the radar towers.

Or just dust off some of your old Maunsell Sea Forts and stick the radars on there.

Or something. Make stealth turbine blades on top of the Sea Forts. :D

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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Most modern turbines use fibre-glass or composite blades, so I imagine it's the generator that messes with any radar returns. This is kind've old news, but with the government push for the world's largest wind farm to meet new EU guidelines, the MoD is having a hissy fit.
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Post by wjs7744 »

I wonder, do we know what the mechanism for this is? I mean, blocking things behind them is one thing, but a blind spot over them seems somewhat strange to me.
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Post by Alferd Packer »

Nono, that's merely German for, "The Windpower, the."

Not to rehash the problems with large-scale deployments of wind power, but I always thought the best applications for wind power deployment are in areas which are difficult to connect to a larger grid, like the Canadian and American Arctic.
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Re: Die Windpower, Die!

Post by Darth Wong »

The MoD says that Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff ...
Tell me this is a joke article. Britain doesn't really have an Air Chief Marshal SIR JOCK STIRRUP, does it? What does Air Marshal Jock Strap do in his spare time?
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Post by Archaic` »

Veni Vidi Castravi Illegitimos
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Post by Simplicius »

Apparently the issue is that the rotation of the turbine blades creates clutter for Doppler radars.

Here is a PDF issue brief from the National Wind Coordinating Committee.

The Effects of Windmill Farms on Military Readiness is the US Defense Department's report.

I'd quote results, but they mostly seem to be presented in graphics which I can't rip out of PDFs.
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Re: Die Windpower, Die!

Post by Frank Hipper »

Darth Wong wrote:
The MoD says that Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff ...
Tell me this is a joke article. Britain doesn't really have an Air Chief Marshal SIR JOCK STIRRUP, does it? What does Air Marshal Jock Strap do in his spare time?
I have it on good authority that he's an athletic supporter. :wink:
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Re: Die Windpower, Die!

Post by Darth Wong »

Frank Hipper wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
The MoD says that Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff ...
Tell me this is a joke article. Britain doesn't really have an Air Chief Marshal SIR JOCK STIRRUP, does it? What does Air Marshal Jock Strap do in his spare time?
I have it on good authority that he's an athletic supporter. :wink:
He's a perfect fit for the job.
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Post by wjs7744 »

Simplicius wrote:Apparently the issue is that the rotation of the turbine blades creates clutter for Doppler radars.

Here is a PDF issue brief from the National Wind Coordinating Committee.

The Effects of Windmill Farms on Military Readiness is the US Defense Department's report.

I'd quote results, but they mostly seem to be presented in graphics which I can't rip out of PDFs.
I'm sorry I asked. From what I managed to gather, the main issue seems to be that the turbines are showing up in the sidelobes of the radar, which is why the false images are in different places to the actual turbine. I guess the movement of the blades is part of the problem, since stationary objects have a reflected dopler shift of zero, and are therefore relatively easy to filter out. If I've missed anything, someone please point it out.
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Re: Die Windpower, Die!

Post by Stile »

Darth Wong wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:I have it on good authority that he's an athletic supporter. :wink:
He's a perfect fit for the job.
If we can have a Seymour Johnson... :twisted:
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Post by Broomstick »

Oh, for fuck's sake, do they outlaw buildings, too? Flocks of birds? LOTS of things can interfere with radar.

Are these "radar shadows" really a problem? How extensive? Do they impact sensitive areas or is this a kneejerk reaction?
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Post by wjs7744 »

Broomstick wrote:Oh, for fuck's sake, do they outlaw buildings, too? Flocks of birds? LOTS of things can interfere with radar.

Are these "radar shadows" really a problem? How extensive? Do they impact sensitive areas or is this a kneejerk reaction?
Well, seeing as military (and probably civil, too) radar is designed to minimise the strength of sidelobes for obvious reasons, it could be. Unless the speed of the rotors or something exacerbates the problem. Seriously, I didn't see much in that document that I didn't already know; I suspect it was a briefing document for laymen, they took up a lot of time explaining how radar and turbines work, as if the operating mechanism of a wind turbine was relevant to this case.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Broomstick wrote:Oh, for fuck's sake, do they outlaw buildings, too? Flocks of birds? LOTS of things can interfere with radar.

Are these "radar shadows" really a problem? How extensive? Do they impact sensitive areas or is this a kneejerk reaction?
Buildings are static which seems to be a factor here, and generally not an issue for coastal stations for a very obvious reason, and as for birds, do they fill in the paperwork before taking a flight like we demand of humans?
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Frankly I'm not surprised, though anything to get the SNP off its anti-nuclear pitch is a damn good thing since they're already starting to realize wind and hydro come with their own problems.

They have vetoed several projects for environmental reasons and seem set on fueling the country on nothing but their own hot air.
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Post by Broomstick »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Oh, for fuck's sake, do they outlaw buildings, too? Flocks of birds? LOTS of things can interfere with radar.

Are these "radar shadows" really a problem? How extensive? Do they impact sensitive areas or is this a kneejerk reaction?
Buildings are static which seems to be a factor here, and generally not an issue for coastal stations for a very obvious reason, and as for birds, do they fill in the paperwork before taking a flight like we demand of humans?
Actually, in the US flight plans are not required under many circumstances, there is considerably less paperwork involved than in Europe. Most small airplane flights do not require it, although many people file anyway.

Having browsed one of the longer links it does seem the motion of the blades is a factor - but that this might be taken care of by altering the placement of the wind turbines.

In the US, skyscrapers along a coastline can and do cast radar shadows - but we haven't shut down the flyways as a result.

I can't help but wonder if computers can't be programmed to take into account the wind turbines. In the US they are already used to edit out things like flocks of birds from ATC radar and flocks of birds are quite mobile. I suppose the problem is different for the machinery, and possibly for the military applications as well which, as a civilian, I know very little about.

My reaction was towards the news article in the OP - as usual, the media didn't really give enough information. But they won't print a 62 page report, either.
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Re: Die Windpower, Die!

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Darth Wong wrote:
The MoD says that Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff ...
Tell me this is a joke article. Britain doesn't really have an Air Chief Marshal SIR JOCK STIRRUP, does it? What does Air Marshal Jock Strap do in his spare time?[/quote

The general who used to be in charge of the Army was called Michael Jackson :)
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Post by Dartzap »

Bugger. Damnable quote tags......
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

And we have a Lord Adonis and Rt. Hon. Lord Justice Laws.

Anyway, the EU targets are hard enough to meet without this setback. If this really does kill the project, then we'll have to go with that Scottish group's research in wave powered generators instead.
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Post by wjs7744 »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Anyway, the EU targets are hard enough to meet without this setback. If this really does kill the project, then we'll have to go with that Scottish group's research in wave powered generators instead.
True. It's kind of sad that we've put it off so long that even if we started building tomorrow, many don't think we would have any proper nuclear plants in time.
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Post by NeoGoomba »

Horray, looks like Dick Army just found himself a new friend!
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:And we have a Lord Adonis and Rt. Hon. Lord Justice Laws.
How incredibly badass. He can walk into a room and legitimately say 'I AM JUSTICE.' Holy shit.
Anyway, the EU targets are hard enough to meet without this setback. If this really does kill the project, then we'll have to go with that Scottish group's research in wave powered generators instead.
Incidentally, how promising does that look?
What is Project Zohar?

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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Ford Prefect wrote:
How incredibly badass. He can walk into a room and legitimately say 'I AM JUSTICE.' Holy shit.
Uh, well, actually, ANY judge can say that. The unique name here is "Laws", which is quite ironic. I know there's another one I found cool, though the name escapes me.
Incidentally, how promising does that look?
It works, I'll give them that.
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