How to talk to a scientologist

[Surlethe]

From here.

How to talk to a Scientologist

Essay Copyright 2003, Michael Leonard Tilse, All rights reserved. No Scientology organization or entity has any authorization to copy, print or store this essay in any form, including electronic messaging systems, databases, hardcopy or as information stored on information storage and retreival systems. Anybody else can read it and print it and share it as long as it is in its orginal form, unaltered and with this copyright notice intact.

2 August 2003 Copyright 2003, Michael Leonard Tilse

HOW TO TALK TO A SCIENTOLOGIST.

I think people are interested in why a Scientologist stays one and why some leave, so I thought I would talk to you about it.

I was a Scientologist for 27 years. I gave them over two hundred thousand dollars of my own money. In fact, until earlier this year I still considered myself a Scientologist.

There is a lot of information that Scientology is destructive. Scientology has had to pay out millions of dollars to people they have harmed. Yet, as you may know, it is almost impossible to talk about these things with a dedicated Scientologist. I hope to give you some clues.

You might wonder how I decided to leave. After all, my parents tried to talk me out of it. My sister tried to talk me out of it. My friends tried to talk me out of it. None succeeded.

I wouldn't listen to anyone who tried to dissuade me from Scientology. I kept myself from reading critical news articles or viewing television shows. I never read critical books. I thought it was all lies anyway. I would have defended Scientology to the death.

So there are a few things you don't want to do when taking to a Scientologist.

Don't talk to them about the weird stuff. Most Scientologists don't know about it and are trained in the idea that finding out about it too soon will kill them. So just leave that entirely alone. It may freak you out and you may want to share it, but they will think it is a personal attack.

Don't tell them it is not a religion. A Scientologist will instantly tune you out the moment you say that. After all they have subjective experience that is to them completely spiritual and religious in nature. To assert it isn't is to be calling them a liar and denying their own experience.

Scientologists invest a lot of their life and almost all their money in pursuit of the Scientology total freedom. I want you to understand that. Take myself as an example. Almost all my friends were Scientologists. Almost all my money went to Scientology. Up to 20 hours a week were spent at the church studying or getting counseling, even when I had a full time job. My whole life centered around Scientology and I wasn't even a staff member. For a staff member it becomes all consuming.

I felt that Scientology had saved my life. That I would otherwise have destroyed myself with drugs or suicide. I felt I had experienced personal insight into the nature of my own being through Scientology. It explained everything to me.

To tell me it isn't a religion runs counter to my belief, but more importantly, it runs counter to my investment. If it is not a religion, then what did I do with my two hundred thousand dollars and my 27 years of association and all those hours of study and counseling? I would have to admit that waste and I'm not going to do that just because you state, "It's not a religion."

Don't tell them Hubbard was a con-man and a fraud and a bigamist and that almost nothing he said about himself was true. A Scientologist can't believe that because he has been told that such statements are all lies. That the documents that show these things are fabrications by a shadowy conspiracy to destroy L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology and thus deny people the total freedom Scientology offers.

You're in a he-said she-said situation. In fact, without careful research you might be presenting false information that the church has put on the 'net just so they can show their members how false it all is. So a Scientologist will be sure you are now a tool of the conspiracy, out to destroy Scientology. And they will not listen.

Don't tell them Scientology doesn't work. For a Scientologist, it does work. They know it. They will be able to point out one or many times where they had a success or it helped them through something or they felt better about themselves. They may have past life memories that convince them of their spiritual nature. They can have experienced wonderful things.

In fact, I still feel that some things in Scientology help. It is one of the hardest things to get over and understand and I am still coping with it. Because a lot of the writing that Hubbard did appeals to one's better nature, to the idea of helping people, of attaining one's dreams. It is very seductive and if you have any success at it, you will attribute it to Scientology.

But I've been doing some research. And one book is a book called "Hypnotism" written by G.H. Estabrooks in 1943. In chapter three he says: "There is a rule in Hypnotism that everything we get in a trance can also be obtained by means of the posthypnotic suggestion. Also that anything we find in either can be found in autosuggestion..."

So I am coming to believe that almost everything that occurs in Scientology that a Scientologist experiences and believes in comes about as the self-suggested result of a kind of auto-hypnosis. Everything that seems to work or be positive is attributed to Scientology, and everything negative is assigned to personal failure or lack of understanding of Scientology. After which there is a long bout of study to correct the matter, which again is a kind of auto-hypnosis.

And any outside challenge to that carefully maintained trance will result in greater and greater resistance.

So how Do you talk to a Scientologist?

First, you have to care. You have to care for them. Regardless of what you think about what they believe or do, you have to care.

Throw out any bigotry or intolerance you might have and be a caring person. Listen to them. Assure them you only want good things for them. Give them a safe place to visit or come to.

Many times Scientologists won't leave the church even though they want to, if they have no safe place or people of unconditional trust to go to.

It is a huge personal event to leave Scientology. You have to somehow come to the decision you were wrong and all that money and time and investment is lost. You have to be willing to lose your friends, maybe even a husband or wife or children. Few people can do that when others are telling them they were wrong. And really, what a person has hypnotized himself into can only be undone by himself.

Tell them that if they want to come and see you, just call and you'll pay their way. Don't say "leave the church", say "come and see me." If they call, send them an airplane ticket or go pick them up. And when they show up on your door step, don't be surprised, be supportive. Don't eagerly use their leaving to present them with stacks of information critical of Scientology. You can ask them about it, but they have a lot to think about. It can take some time. Give them space. Let them ask for information or let them use the internet to find out for themselves.

If they want to talk, get them talking about it. Have them tell you their experiences, good and bad. Talking helps, especially when the person listening is nonjudgmental.

It is the internal conflicts I experienced within Scientology that broke the spell for me. So if I were now talking to a Scientologist, I would talk to them about these things:

Get them to explain about the powers of an operating thetan, the higher levels in Scientology. And then ask them if they knew of people on those levels getting sick or getting cancer or dying or just leaving the church. Get them to think how the reality they observe differs from what is promised. Even for people who have been in Scientology for years. Tell them you are confused; if these magnificent powers existed, how then could critics of the church continue to write or even to exist? Couldn't a top level Scientologist just wish them away?

Get them to describe the ideals of Scientology ethics and justice and how Scientologists are supposed to be honest and straightforward. Find out if they know any Scientologists who won't pay back loans, who have trouble with paying their rent, who have done a lot of Scientology but still seem shady or involved in schemes. If they have been around awhile, they will know some or will have heard of many such things.

Get them to explain "having to have before you can do" and have them tell you about what Scientologists are told they need to do to before management releases the next "O.T." levels. Then wonder, if it is so important that these levels be done to ensure the hope of the future, why are there things that have to be done first?

Find out if they experienced the misapplication of Scientology justice themselves. Get them to talk about it.

Find out what they think about Hubbard's writings being revised over 15 years after his death. Does it make sense to them?

See if they will talk about their feelings that it is "just them" having trouble, but that Scientology really is good. It is very common for people to go for decades wondering privately why they are not getting the promised gains from Scientology while outwardly defending it to the death.

These kinds of questions and getting them to think about what they experienced and observed as compared to what they are taught and led to believe are a key to breaking the kind of spell they are under.

So, I think that you should talk with a Scientologist completely nonjudgmentally. Get them to talk about what they have observed themselves in fellow Scientologists, organizations, management and activities as compared to what they are given to believe from Hubbard's writings and the promises of management. This way you open the door far enough that they will begin to read and compare the stories and experiences of ex-Scientologists with their own.

Once that happens, you can help them. But don't push it on them. And then by reading actual documents such as Hubbard's death certificate and the coroner's report and toxic screen, the depositions in court testimony, police reports in the Lisa McPherson case, etc., they can begin to form a picture of what they were prevented from knowing. And choose.

So how do you talk to a Scientologist? With care and understanding. They found a reason to be in it. Give them the space and time and resources to find a reason to be out of it.

Michael Tilse (c) copyright Michael Leonard Tilse 2003

Interestingly, in the vein of earlier threads, this is almost exactly what goes on in fundamentalist Christianity. So if he's right about talking to scientologists, this 'recipe' should also work for fundamentalist Christians.

[Darth Wong]

Yet more proof that Scientology really is just like every other religion. The "you're a bigot for dissing my beliefs" and "I know it's real because it helped me" arguments are religionist classics.

See if they will talk about their feelings that it is "just them" having trouble, but that Scientology really is good. It is very common for people to go for decades wondering privately why they are not getting the promised gains from Scientology while outwardly defending it to the death.

That's the dirty little secret of millions of Christians too. How many of them listen to fellow parishioners talking joyfully about how they pray to God and then they can feel his presence in their hearts, talking to them? How many of them wonder: "why don't I feel that way? Is there something wrong with me?" and then nod and pretend that they've had the same experiences? How much of it is an act, manufactured by countless Christians for the benefit of other Christians, like some grand perverse game of collective make-believe? Hell, Mother Theresa went for decades without feeling "His Presence", but she kept up all her outward appearances.

[Metatwaddle]

That's the dirty little secret of millions of Christians too. How many of them listen to fellow parishioners talking joyfully about how they pray to God and then they can feel his presence in their hearts, talking to them? How many of them wonder: "why don't I feel that way? Is there something wrong with me?" and then nod and pretend that they've had the same experiences?

I know it was true of me when I was about 14. I never "got" Christianity, but I tried to, and if any atheist tried to tell me it was illogical or an emotional crutch, I'd snap at them and tell them they'd never experienced the omg!joy&love! that I had.

I know I'm not the only one, either - my dad has hinted that he had similar experiences when he was in his twenties or so. I don't know if he believes now. I suspect he doesn't, but he keeps going to church anyway.

[wjs7744]

Probably the only real differences are the fact that Scientology requires people to spend more money on it and tries to hide it's core teachings from it's followers.

You might say that these are big differences, but in truth Christianity simply doesn't need similar fundraising and criticism-supression mechanisms due to it's age and popularity. After all, they used to do both these things in the past, and have only ceased now because the law has forced them to.

Of course, this indicates that Scientology has found ways to circumvent the relevant laws, which may make it more dangerous in America and the rest of the First World. (Scientology is unlikely to gain a foothold elsewhere, for reasons I have already explained)

[Darth Wong]

It's funny how some Christians try to argue that you can't criticize Christianity for what it did in the past, in order to defend their "Scientology is not a legitimate religion" argument. Even if you accept that line of bullshit, it leads to the conclusion that for most of its existence, Christianity has not been a legitimate religion. Moreover, it leads to the secondary conclusion that an illegitimate religion can eventually become a legitimate religion with no change whatsoever to its doctrines, as long as it stops some of its more destructive behaviour. So Scientology has just as much chance of eventually becoming a "legitimate" religion as Christianity ever did.

It's this sort of self-conscious mental chicanery that makes it so clear that the only logically consistent way to approach this is to condemn all religion, instead of trying to draw these shifting lines around which religions are acceptable or unacceptable.

[Medic]

That's the dirty little secret of millions of Christians too. How many of them listen to fellow parishioners talking joyfully about how they pray to God and then they can feel his presence in their hearts, talking to them? How many of them wonder: "why don't I feel that way? Is there something wrong with me?" and then nod and pretend that they've had the same experiences?

I know it was true of me when I was about 14. I never "got" Christianity, but I tried to, and if any atheist tried to tell me it was illogical or an emotional crutch, I'd snap at them and tell them they'd never experienced the omg!joy&love! that I had.

I know I'm not the only one, either - my dad has hinted that he had similar experiences when he was in his twenties or so. I don't know if he believes now. I suspect he doesn't, but he keeps going to church anyway.

I was lucky I suppose. I wasn't raised anything so was nominally ignorant or agnostic most of my life.

Without scripture and apologetic interpretations of it pounded into my head, I simply could never be on the same page as a Christian. Due to friendships in my teenage years, I did go to church every Sunday for about ... 2 months and went to a handful of Christian rock concerts but you see, whenever we prayed I DIDN'T feel anything, no presence, and this just left me with the impression that religion was tinny and hollow, not that I wasn't doing it right.

Still, I oscillated between not-quite-deism-Christianity (watered down faith) and agnosticism (though not atheist; I simply didn't CONSIDER that position, not cause it was ludicrous just cause... well, it's hard to understate just how underexposed to religion I was growing up ) simply cause even though I was very much a stoic loner, bubbling just beneath the surface I was emotionally turbulent. So the CONVICTION that some Christians had really swayed me, that and the penalty for not accepting Jesus as your lord and savior was pretty damned scary.

All it took to shatter this very weak faith was the sort of promotion of atheism and liberal politics and ethics I found at this site. I sort've stumbled upon this site as a fluke but this just goes to show how much I was done in by my curiosity and appetite for knowledge. That and at the same time this happened I was very much coming out of my "shell" as a person, so I was much more confident and resistant to social conformity. Interestingly, I came to be an atheist before I really had a grasp on the ins and outs of the theory of evolution. Having hung out here for so long has done worlds to add a bedrock to my understanding of it and to my disbelief.

[brianeyci]

So there are a few things you don't want to do when taking to a Scientologist.

Don't talk to them about the weird stuff. Most Scientologists don't know about it and are trained in the idea that finding out about it too soon will kill them. So just leave that entirely alone. It may freak you out and you may want to share it, but they will think it is a personal attack.

Don't tell them it is not a religion. A Scientologist will instantly tune you out the moment you say that. After all they have subjective experience that is to them completely spiritual and religious in nature. To assert it isn't is to be calling them a liar and denying their own experience.

Some religious people like to characterize agnostics or athiest as people totally lacking social skills and acting like an ass. I don't know what approach most of the people on this board would take, but if I had a close friend I wanted to deconvert, it is a totally different strategy than making fun of someone who's a scientologist I don't know. I am even uncomfortable even talking about religion in front of people I know to be very religious. It's like attacking their entire life, so I'm careful what I say.

In other words the article didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, other than the fact that Christians may be more assholish against individual scientologists than athiest. Boo to them.

[brianeyci]

edit: I find the "it is not a religion" hilarious. It is 100% something an athiest would never say. So it looks like at least on that point, athiests are less of an ass around individual scientologist friends than Christian friends. Go figure.

[Flagg]

Probably the only real differences are the fact that Scientology requires people to spend more money on it and tries to hide it's core teachings from it's followers.

You might say that these are big differences, but in truth Christianity simply doesn't need similar fundraising and criticism-supression mechanisms due to it's age and popularity. After all, they used to do both these things in the past, and have only ceased now because the law has forced them to.

Of course, this indicates that Scientology has found ways to circumvent the relevant laws, which may make it more dangerous in America and the rest of the First World. (Scientology is unlikely to gain a foothold elsewhere, for reasons I have already explained)

No, Christianity has other gimmicks. Like tithes and sales of religious books, relics, videos, and other paraphernalia. You also have the televangelists who promise good things will happen for you if you just send them lots and lots of money.

Of course it's not like mainstream Christianity can exactly hide its core teachings, anyway. What with there being billions of Christians around the world.

[wjs7744]

No, Christianity has other gimmicks. Like tithes and sales of religious books, relics, videos, and other paraphernalia. You also have the televangelists who promise good things will happen for you if you just send them lots and lots of money.

Of course it's not like mainstream Christianity can exactly hide its core teachings, anyway. What with there being billions of Christians around the world.

Well, my point wasn't that Christianity doesn't have a mechanism for acquiring it's adherents money, but that as such a large organisation, it doesnt require the same kind of mandatory payments that Scientology does. My point was that for just about anything Scientology does that Christianity doesn't, you'll find that Christianity simply has no need to do so, or is prevented from doing so by the state. For example, Scientology seems to systematically abuse copyright law, correct? Christianity doesn't do that, so Scientology = TEH EVILS!!1

Right?

But consider this as their mechanism of supressing criticism, and you will see that Christianity doesn't need to do this due to it's general popularity. It isn't a measure of the relevant morality of the two religions, but simply a case of necessity. Does that make any more sense?

[Darth Wong]

So there are a few things you don't want to do when taking to a Scientologist.

Don't talk to them about the weird stuff. Most Scientologists don't know about it and are trained in the idea that finding out about it too soon will kill them. So just leave that entirely alone. It may freak you out and you may want to share it, but they will think it is a personal attack.

Don't tell them it is not a religion. A Scientologist will instantly tune you out the moment you say that. After all they have subjective experience that is to them completely spiritual and religious in nature. To assert it isn't is to be calling them a liar and denying their own experience.

Some religious people like to characterize agnostics or athiest as people totally lacking social skills and acting like an ass. I don't know what approach most of the people on this board would take, but if I had a close friend I wanted to deconvert, it is a totally different strategy than making fun of someone who's a scientologist I don't know. I am even uncomfortable even talking about religion in front of people I know to be very religious. It's like attacking their entire life, so I'm careful what I say.

In other words the article didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, other than the fact that Christians may be more assholish against individual scientologists than athiest. Boo to them.

Atheists who try to talk to Christians face to face usually know enough to adopt a much more careful approach. However, I'm willing to bet that Christians who approach Scientologists behave in a manner that they would view as incredibly offensive if they were on the receiving end. I think this guy is tailoring his recommendations at Christians, since that's 90% of the people in America.

[Flagg]

No, Christianity has other gimmicks. Like tithes and sales of religious books, relics, videos, and other paraphernalia. You also have the televangelists who promise good things will happen for you if you just send them lots and lots of money.

Of course it's not like mainstream Christianity can exactly hide its core teachings, anyway. What with there being billions of Christians around the world.

Well, my point wasn't that Christianity doesn't have a mechanism for acquiring it's adherents money, but that as such a large organisation, it doesnt require the same kind of mandatory payments that Scientology does. My point was that for just about anything Scientology does that Christianity doesn't, you'll find that Christianity simply has no need to do so, or is prevented from doing so by the state. For example, Scientology seems to systematically abuse copyright law, correct? Christianity doesn't do that, so Scientology = TEH EVILS!!1

Right?

But consider this as their mechanism of supressing criticism, and you will see that Christianity doesn't need to do this due to it's general popularity. It isn't a measure of the relevant morality of the two religions, but simply a case of necessity. Does that make any more sense?

Of course. Scientologists need to have some level of indoctrination before being told the whole ridiculous Xenu story, just like Christians have to have some level of indoctrination before being told the whole ridiculous... Everything in the Bible, story. The difference is that living in a culture dominated by Christians, you get slightly indoctrinated just through every day experience. And when you're actually raised that way, it's even worse.

[Joviwan]

...you know, I just realised that, until right now, I've always subconciously assumed the Bible more plausible than Xenu.

That was the weirdest head trip I've ever had.

[Darth Wong]

...you know, I just realised that, until right now, I've always subconciously assumed the Bible more plausible than Xenu.

That was the weirdest head trip I've ever had.

It's eerie watching the Scientology South Park episode where they keep flashing "This is what Scientologists really believe" on top of everything they think is ridiculous, like the evil galactic overlord Xenu or the DC8 spaceships falling into the volcano. And then you think of all the stupid shit in the Bible, like the stars being nothing more than points of light in the sky which will fall to the ground on Judgment Day, or a guy living in the belly of a whale for 3 days, or talking snakes and shrubbery, or demonically possessed pigs hurling themselves off a cliff because Jesus spoke to them, or Samson drinking a gallon of honey and then killing a thousand soldiers with the jawbone of a donkey, or the entire Noah's Ark "flood geology" fairy tale, or a thousand foot Jesus running around breathing fire with a sword sticking out of his mouth. It takes a lot of gall for people to treat Scientology with so much more derision than Judeo-Christianity. Is a spacefaring DC8 really any more bizarre than a handmade Bronze Age wooden boat surviving a global mass extinction event? Is galactic overlord Xenu really any more bizarre than universal overlord God, who supposedly created the entire universe and then got wrestled to a standstill by a human being?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yet more proof that Scientology really is just like every other religion. The "you're a bigot for dissing my beliefs" and "I know it's real because it helped me" arguments are religionist classics.

See if they will talk about their feelings that it is "just them" having trouble, but that Scientology really is good. It is very common for people to go for decades wondering privately why they are not getting the promised gains from Scientology while outwardly defending it to the death.

That's the dirty little secret of millions of Christians too. How many of them listen to fellow parishioners talking joyfully about how they pray to God and then they can feel his presence in their hearts, talking to them? How many of them wonder: "why don't I feel that way? Is there something wrong with me?" and then nod and pretend that they've had the same experiences? How much of it is an act, manufactured by countless Christians for the benefit of other Christians, like some grand perverse game of collective make-believe? Hell, Mother Theresa went for decades without feeling "His Presence", but she kept up all her outward appearances.

My girlfriend and I have talked at length about how we felt this way and felt afraid and intimidated - you couldn't possibly say this to other believers, they would think you didn't care or weren't sincere. They would think less of you. You feel like something's wrong with you. And not just anything, but the most important thing. Luckily I came to this realization early, and an exposure to religious plurality, areligious people, and science - as well as the idiocy of Catholic dogma (does God really cares this much if I jerk off?) - helped me leap over. I think the idea of alternatives and still having social/community support is huge on deconversion and liberalization of Christianity or any religion. They fear people having anywhere to turn but them, just like the Scientologists he talks about. That's why they need to have the town hall crehes, that's why they need to have "under God" - its is NOT about them honoring God, its about keeping everyone intimidated by group pressure to tag along.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Right. I hate the South Park "libertines" - only a vineer of intellectual rigor, its for snotty-kids who want to think they are better than adults and other shit. They should make a movie where Jesus is nailed to a cross, and his followers come up to him, poke a hole, fill a glass, and start drinking ("Mmm, what a great vintage!" [THIS IS WHAT CATHOLICS ACTUALLY BELIEVE]).

[OmegaGuy]

...you know, I just realised that, until right now, I've always subconciously assumed the Bible more plausible than Xenu.

That was the weirdest head trip I've ever had.

It's eerie watching the Scientology South Park episode where they keep flashing "This is what Scientologists really believe" on top of everything they think is ridiculous, like the evil galactic overlord Xenu or the DC8 spaceships falling into the volcano. And then you think of all the stupid shit in the Bible, like the stars being nothing more than points of light in the sky which will fall to the ground on Judgment Day, or a guy living in the belly of a whale for 3 days, or talking snakes and shrubbery, or demonically possessed pigs hurling themselves off a cliff because Jesus spoke to them, or Samson drinking a gallon of honey and then killing a thousand soldiers with the jawbone of a donkey, or the entire Noah's Ark "flood geology" fairy tale, or a thousand foot Jesus running around breathing fire with a sword sticking out of his mouth. It takes a lot of gall for people to treat Scientology with so much more derision than Judeo-Christianity. Is a spacefaring DC8 really any more bizarre than a handmade Bronze Age wooden boat surviving a global mass extinction event? Is galactic overlord Xenu really any more bizarre than universal overlord God, who supposedly created the entire universe and then got wrestled to a standstill by a human being?

I tried making those kind of comparisons to a Christian who was saying how Scientology was ridiculous, but he then accused me of being a Scientologist trying to convert him

[Flagg]

...you know, I just realised that, until right now, I've always subconciously assumed the Bible more plausible than Xenu.

That was the weirdest head trip I've ever had.

And it's sadly true. I have to remind myself every now and then just how fucking ridiculous the entire basis of the Abrahamic religions is and I've been an Atheist for over 10 years (yeah, I know how super long that is ). It's kinda freaky to realize how willing I am to subconsciously accept certain things that are fucking retarded simply because they are widely believed and rarely questioned in American culture.

[Flagg]

Right. I hate the South Park "libertines" - only a vineer of intellectual rigor, its for snotty-kids who want to think they are better than adults and other shit. They should make a movie where Jesus is nailed to a cross, and his followers come up to him, poke a hole, fill a glass, and start drinking ("Mmm, what a great vintage!" [THIS IS WHAT CATHOLICS ACTUALLY BELIEVE]).

Yeah, they tend to go after the Catholic Church itself, but always manage to pull back before really ripping the heart out Mortal Kombat style and end it with some golden mean bullshit. You know, because that's pretty much what they do.

[Shroom Man 777]

As for Group Pressure, as discussed by Mike and IP, yeah. Part of my deconversion was when I left my old Christian School which was full of Jesus Freaks and transfered to another school (catholic, but full of delinquents), the lack of "Accept Jesus Christ into your heart!" and other crap made it easier for me to come out of my religious closet without feeling super guilty. I just...ditched it like unwanted luggage.

It's frightening what groupthink can do to you. When so many people believe in something, it becomes as real as any fact.

[Darth Wong]

As for Group Pressure, as discussed by Mike and IP, yeah. Part of my deconversion was when I left my old Christian School which was full of Jesus Freaks and transfered to another school (catholic, but full of delinquents), the lack of "Accept Jesus Christ into your heart!" and other crap made it easier for me to come out of my religious closet without feeling super guilty. I just...ditched it like unwanted luggage.

It's frightening what groupthink can do to you. When so many people believe in something, it becomes as real as any fact.

Groupthink is also far, far stronger when it occurs up close and personal, and in groups. There's a reason why they pack even more people into even bigger churches for sermons in the digital age, instead of doing away with fancy churches and giving sermons by webcam. They need the peer pressure, and peer pressure doesn't work too well when you're anonymously surfing the Internet.

[Shroom Man 777]

[quote=Darth Wong]Groupthink is also far, far stronger when it occurs up close and personal, and in groups.[/quote]

When whatever belief they shove into a person becomes associated with that social group of friends - when it becomes the defining aspect of a person's relationship with those people - then it's really understandable why it's so bloody hard it is to deconvert them. It's like removing a limb.

[Civil War Man]

Yeah, they tend to go after the Catholic Church itself, but always manage to pull back before really ripping the heart out Mortal Kombat style and end it with some golden mean bullshit. You know, because that's pretty much what they do.

There was this one Easter episode I saw recently where they had a DaVinci Code-esque conspiracy about Saint Peter being a rabbit, and that Jesus intended the pope to be a rabbit because rabbits didn't try to control people.

That was probably the least golden mean they got when delving specifically into the Catholic Church, particularly since Jesus cut the guy from the Catholic League in half with chakram.

[Flagg]

Yeah, they tend to go after the Catholic Church itself, but always manage to pull back before really ripping the heart out Mortal Kombat style and end it with some golden mean bullshit. You know, because that's pretty much what they do.

There was this one Easter episode I saw recently where they had a DaVinci Code-esque conspiracy about Saint Peter being a rabbit, and that Jesus intended the pope to be a rabbit because rabbits didn't try to control people.

That was probably the least golden mean they got when delving specifically into the Catholic Church, particularly since Jesus cut the guy from the Catholic League in half with chakram.

Yeah, but the Pope was just an innocent old man who really didn't mean anyone any harm, and it was the mean old Bill Donahue who usurped his power and used it for his own ends. That's a prime example of the golden mean shit they pull.

[Lusankya]

The OP also seems to give decent advice on how to help your friends to leave abusive relationships. Just replace the right words with "relationship" and "dickhead boyfriend", and it becomes pretty much the same.

Of course, I'm convinced that pretty much every dogmatic religion is basically institutionalised emotional abuse. Strangely enough, when I was going out with my abusive ex, he sort of tried to make me religious (even though he wasn't himself). It makes me think that perhaps he was trying to get me involved with another organisation that would reinforce his behaviour.