A question about Ultramar (40k)

[Ford Prefect]

This is very simple: is there anything approaching a comprehesive list of planets in the region of space controlled by Macragge? Apart from Macragge, the only world that I know of in Ultramar is Calth, which is pretty much dead and not particularly useful to me.

[Keevan_Colton]

I cant think off the top of my head, but I do recall there being a map in one of my old rulebooks from back around 2nd edition. I'll see about digging it out for you tomorrow afternoon.

[Academia Nut]

From the map in the 4th Edition Rulebook:

Maccagre: Homeworld
Prandium: Garden World, eaten by Nids
Calth: Cavern World
Iax: Garden World
Parmenio: Ultramarines Training World
Konor: Ad. Mech. Research World
Talassar: Ocean World
Talasa Prime: Inquisition Fortress
Quintarn: Agri World
Tarentus: Agri World
Masali: Agri World

[Ford Prefect]

Thank you both, it will all be useful for the upcoming BL short-story competition.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

This may also be of use.

[Crom]

I didn't realize that the Tau were right on the Ultramarines' doorstep. Say, how do the Ultramarines actually run their little chunk of space? I mean, does the Chapter Master sit around playing the executive officer? Do other marines serve as other upper level civil servants?

It seems like it would severely impair the chapter's ability to fight if they had to spend a big chunk of their time being bureaucrats.

[white_rabbit]

Thank you both, it will all be useful for the upcoming BL short-story competition.

One thing that might be of interest to you, as of the latest ork codex, the Arch-Arsonist has managed to finally invade Ultramar.

Fire obsessed ork Waaaagh versus the Ultramarines!

[Lancer]

The Ultramarines don't govern the Realm alone. They maintain close ties to several descendant chapters. Presumably the Lord Maccagre serves as the Commander in Chief of the joint forces of the Realm, while the administrative issues are handled by either the local equivalent of the Adeptus Terra or Marines who aren't counted against the 1000-men at arms limit (i.e. Techmarines, Apothecaries, Librarians, command staff, instructors, etc).

[Kuja]

Apart from Macragge, the only world that I know of in Ultramar is Calth, which is pretty much dead and not particularly useful to me.

Calth got firebombed during the Heresy, but it's far from dead. The Ultramarines still raise recruits from there. Hell, Uriel Ventris is from Calth, as I recall.

[Lancer]

Calths surface is dead, but the population lives in huge underground cavern cities. Other than those cities, the only thing of note about Calth are its shipyards.

[Crom]

The Ultramarines don't govern the Realm alone. They maintain close ties to several descendant chapters. Presumably the Lord Maccagre serves as the Commander in Chief of the joint forces of the Realm, while the administrative issues are handled by either the local equivalent of the Adeptus Terra or Marines who aren't counted against the 1000-men at arms limit (i.e. Techmarines, Apothecaries, Librarians, command staff, instructors, etc).

I just got a vision of the West Wing only centered around the Lord Maccagre.

Anyway, it seems silly to have Space Marines be the administrator/rulers of a civilization. The amount invested in their production and the relatively few numbers of them seems like a misuse of resources. It strikes me as something like training up a Navy SEAL and then immediately making him governor of a territory or something.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

In what way do the Ultramarines maintain ties to the successor chapters and what are they? I recall the Ultramarines were the largest Space Marine legion so it would probably divided up into the most number of chapters among all the loyalist legions.

[Academia Nut]

From what I understand, the rules for Space Marines are that they are pretty much the absolute rulers of their homeworlds (if they have one), free to govern them however the fuck they want. In fact, the official categorization for the tithe is "Adeptus Non" which is to say that they don't have to give anything to the Imperium that they don't want to. Oh, there are various checks and such, but more or less whatever the Marines say goes. Most chapters take a hands off approach to their worlds, in that while they are officially in charge they are too busy to do actual governing. Chapters like this typically leave their worlds in a feral or feudal state so as to produce the fiercest warriors available. The Space Wolves, White Scars and Blood Angels immediately spring to mind with regards to that sort of thing.

On the other hand, there are a few chapters that take a more hands on approach to their worlds. The Ultramarines are one such group, where the entire society of Ultramar revolves around the chapter in one way or another. While they don't need to give over a tithe to the Imperial Guard, the people of Ultramar do anyway because of their pride in the Imperium, and people can actually point to places in their family tree (cousins, uncles, brothers, etc. nothing direct obviously) where they have Marine relatives. The Chapter Master here seems to be the overall Commander in Chief, capable of dictating policy, but there is almost certainly a massive civilian bureaucracy of serfs that serve the chapter and does the vast majority of the work.

Another Chapter that is tightly integrated with their civilian population is the Salamanders, who actually live amongst the civilians when not on deployment and act as community leaders. While it seems like a bit of a waste, it should be pointed out that the Salamanders (fluff-wise anyway) produce some of the toughest and elite Marines in the galaxy, falling short of only the Custodes and the Grey Knights and certainly in the top five most elite Space Marine groups. They focus on individuality and there are stories of Salamanders squads getting wiped out to the last man and that one guy manages to still hold for weeks or months, so being distributed amongst the civvies won't hurt their training and probably is considered beneficial for the Marines.

It should be pointed out at this point that, aside from being huge military targets, the worlds where the Marines have integrated with the civilians tend to be some of the nicest places in the galaxy to live. Both Ultramar and Nocture are highly advanced civilizations, with Nocture getting a lot of goodies from the Ad Mech because of the export of metals and finished goods. So it would seem that having Space Marines as leaders isn't necessarily a bad thing, so long as they don't act like complete dicks.

[Ford Prefect]

Don't forget Nut that everyone of the Salamanders conform to the blacksmith's apprectice trope.

As I understand it, Chapters that actually involve themselves in governing their world (or worlds, if they have them), integrate such practice into the various other administrative tasks that the Chapter must perform (such as requisition for materials so they can build tanks, diplomacy with the Adeptus Mechanicus and so on). I can't imagine a Space Marine doing much more than stamping whatever paperwork his small army of serfs has put together though.

One thing that might be of interest to you, as of the latest ork codex, the Arch-Arsonist has managed to finally invade Ultramar.

Yes! Admittedly I won't be able to integrate that, but I may have to mention it.

Calth got firebombed during the Heresy, but it's far from dead. The Ultramarines still raise recruits from there. Hell, Uriel Ventris is from Calth, as I recall.

While Calth is practically self-sufficient, the bombing performed by the Word Bearers has left it practically airless and dead; the people survived by escaping into underground tunnels at the time, and have rebuilt their society beneath the surface. Either way it's not particularly useful to me anyway.

[Ziggy Stardust]

[Chris OFarrell]

Instant win.

I think the Ultra-Marines are so involved with their population mostly because of their Primarch. Guilliman was raised as a royal son, trained in their military where of course he rapidly flourished and went to the top, then after his adopted father was killed in an attempted coup, he took over a very much established civilization, which then flourished, developed FTL technology and the entire sector of space rapidly improved under his leadership.

As such, the Ultramarines have a historical close involvement with the area in Governing the place, not just raiding for recruits every now and again like other chapters. Guilliman was the ruler of a bunch of systems, which then switched their alleigence through him to the Emperor when he found Guilliman, but the area of space has always been highly developed and advanced, the Ultramarines ruling to this day somewhat in Guilliman's name. There was never really the 'disconnect' you get with a lot of chapters, that just have a sector of space they 'work in', but don't really 'interact' in.

The most extreme example of that probably being the Blood Ravens.

[Crom]

Instant win.

I think the Ultra-Marines are so involved with their population mostly because of their Primarch. Guilliman was raised as a royal son, trained in their military where of course he rapidly flourished and went to the top, then after his adopted father was killed in an attempted coup, he took over a very much established civilization, which then flourished, developed FTL technology and the entire sector of space rapidly improved under his leadership.

As such, the Ultramarines have a historical close involvement with the area in Governing the place, not just raiding for recruits every now and again like other chapters. Guilliman was the ruler of a bunch of systems, which then switched their alleigence through him to the Emperor when he found Guilliman, but the area of space has always been highly developed and advanced, the Ultramarines ruling to this day somewhat in Guilliman's name. There was never really the 'disconnect' you get with a lot of chapters, that just have a sector of space they 'work in', but don't really 'interact' in.

The most extreme example of that probably being the Blood Ravens.

Is there any literature about how the government of Ultramar? I'm really curious as to how it breaks down.

And what do the Blood Ravens do?

[Lord Revan]

And what do the Blood Ravens do?

they visit worlds only for recruits when needed they don't even have a homeworld (their Chapter Keep is mounted on a Battlebarge)

[Crom]

they visit worlds only for recruits when needed they don't even have a homeworld (their Chapter Keep is mounted on a Battlebarge)

Don't the Black Templars operate in the same way?

[Lord Revan]

they visit worlds only for recruits when needed they don't even have a homeworld (their Chapter Keep is mounted on a Battlebarge)

Don't the Black Templars operate in the same way?

not sure, but the Imperial Fists are another space borne chapter (though their official homeworld is Holy Terra).

[Ford Prefect]

they visit worlds only for recruits when needed they don't even have a homeworld (their Chapter Keep is mounted on a Battlebarge)

Don't the Black Templars operate in the same way?

The Black Templars are the most extreme version of a space-borne Chapter, as they're so much more prolific than other Chapters - they're constantlyo n Crusade, after all.

[Kuja]

they visit worlds only for recruits when needed they don't even have a homeworld (their Chapter Keep is mounted on a Battlebarge)

Don't the Black Templars operate in the same way?

Not quite. The Templars build new chapter keeps when it suits them, uses them for a period of time as they're still viable, and when the crusades move on they gut the places and bring the stuff over to the new crop of keeps.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Incidentally, what happened to the planetoid that the Imperial fists used as a "home"?

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Incidentally, what happened to the planetoid that the Imperial fists used as a "home"?

The Phalanx? As far as I know, they still use it. Their official homeworld is Terra, but in practice the Phalanx serves as their home and fortress-monastery.

[Kuja]

Incidentally, what happened to the planetoid that the Imperial fists used as a "home"?

As I recall, the Fists were always based aboard the ark, and never really had one single 'homeworld' like the majority of the legions.