Ms Traviss redeems herself (spoilers, LotF:Revelation)

[Chris OFarrell]

And this is the main reason I hate the SW EU.

Zahn clearly wrote Gilad Pellaeon to be a competent flag captain for Thrawn. Nothing really more or less.

Which is fair enough.

But of course then we get into problems. A single throw away line about how Pellaeon had called a retreat at Endor, the context of which is rather clear IMO that the chain of command had utterly broken down and Pellaeon, seeing that there was no real way to rally the fleet and defeat the Rebels, called a retreat.

Then we get all these other EU writers who don't give a fuck comming in to write their OWN amazing super continuations of ROTJ. Like the battle actually going for something like seven HOURS after the end of the films showing of the battle, despite an apparent retreat being called and frankly the rather clear implication in the movie that it more or less ended with the explosion of the second Death Star.

Then adding in reinforcements arriving who apparently continued to fight on.

Then other authors, without bothering to check established continuity -or perhaps it was Zahn the other way round, though frankly I doubt it given the age of HTTE- write that no, write their own Admiral or Grand Admiral or whoever above him in the chain of command so instead of an officer who saw a hopeless tactical situation and called a retreat to regroup and rally the fleet, he becomes a coward who deserted in the face of the enemy.

Something, given that Gilad Pellaeon becomes an increasingly major character in the books from that point on, that NEVER comes up or is even hinted at by anyone on ANY side.

So while I can nod to the excellent research and work done by people like Publius, I frankly just ignore the crap after Endor and just pretend it never happened, because its just sloppy writing.

Still, its NOTHING as bad as the post Battle of Yavin timeline. Where as once I assumed the Rebels evacuated the base promptly and skipped around the Galaxy for a short time, probably dispersing most of the Yavin group to various cells, before reestablishing the HQ on Hoth...

I mean seriously. I dare you all to go and read the wookipedia timeline between the Battle of Yavin and when they finally evacuated the base, thanks to the huge mismash of comics, novels and all manner of other sources. Its just enough to melt your brain.

[Publius]

Palpatine's central, powerful evil, was a cohesive force for the Empire - there's no reason to believe the absence of same would have any negative effect on the Rebel fleet whatsoever. Second, that this is described as the cohesive force for the Empire, combined with events in the battle related by the novelization - in particular, the "disorganized" fighter response to the Rebel fighters conducting their attack the Death Star after the Emperor's death, tends against a presumption that this drop in effectiveness is only taking place on the Death Star.

The earliest part of the quote mentions a pervasive sense of hysteria before attributing it to the death of the Emperor, and the scene is specifically describing the Death Star itself. The same effects are not observed anywhere else, and the disorganized fighter response is equally attributable to the loss of command-and-control resulting from the destruction of the flagship and the communications ship (and that regardless of who was performing it, the battle meditation ceased with the Emperor's death).

In a metaphorical sense, the Emperor's death did result in a massive breakdown in cohesion throughout the Empire. There is not, however, reason to believe that the actual psychic trauma experienced by the crew of the Death Star took place anywhere else, as it is simply not attested anywhere else (remember that it is only Thrawn's theory that attributes the disorganized fighter response and subpar battle performance of the fleet to the Emperor's death).

There is every reason to believe that the effects would apply to the rebels as well as the Imperials, seeing that the Force is an energy field, and the effect was specifically described as "diffused" and "nondirected." The novelization's quote does say, after all, that this was the natural result of the dark side's diffusion; why would the rebels be immune to it if they were within the area of effect? Notice especially that the scene does not actually support Thrawn's theory of "withdrawal shock" but rather implies that the effect was caused by the Emperor's concentrated evil being dispersed (furthermore, if this is the case and the effect did spread to the fleet, then they would actually be doubly handicapped, given the abrupt end of Declann's battle meditation and the diffusion of the Emperor's power).

[PainRack]

Then adding in reinforcements arriving who apparently continued to fight on.

? I thought that the initial wave of reinforcements simply retreated? And by the time other strategic forces have moved in, the Rebels have withdrawn?
Of course, this does screw with other EU works where the Rebels set up base on Endor for a few months before moving on.

Then other authors, without bothering to check established continuity -or perhaps it was Zahn the other way round, though frankly I doubt it given the age of HTTE- write that no, write their own Admiral or Grand Admiral or whoever above him in the chain of command so instead of an officer who saw a hopeless tactical situation and called a retreat to regroup and rally the fleet, he becomes a coward who deserted in the face of the enemy.

There is a retcon though. The loss of communications throughout the fleet thanks to the Death Star radiation may had hampered the Grand Admiral attempt to rally the fleet. If Chimera had been the lead squadron commander, his decision to withdraw his ship might had caused the wing or line his ship was in to withdraw from the fight, ignoring the admiral orders to fight on.

I mean seriously. I dare you all to go and read the wookipedia timeline between the Battle of Yavin and when they finally evacuated the base, thanks to the huge mismash of comics, novels and all manner of other sources. Its just enough to melt your brain.

The timeline is so bloody crowded in the ANH-ROTJ that I understand the reason why some people choose to be a canon purist.

[Stark]

Yeah, but however dumbshit it is (and really, Publius's research is the only way to learn about it) you can't change canon policy, so for open discussions like this you can't just pick and choose. A quick look around wookiepedia can reveal any number of reasons to want to throw the whole lot out (and I certainly do for my personal enjoyment), but canon is canon.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Of course, here comes the "whine whine EU mean to Zahn!" cry-brigade. The truth was is that Zahn's writing was always unrealistic and never depicted naval combat or officers well, inviting objective evaluations of his characters' competence that were not flattering. Zahn made Pelleaon the XO of the Chimaera, which means he was not legally in any position or competence to issue a retreat order - literally every single CO would have to be incapacitated before the chain of command will fall to him. Its total bullshit that the evidence could ever have been construed where every captain or even nearly every single skipper in the fucking fleet could not do shit and it really fell upon Old Fuss and Failure. Its not anyone else's fault - its Zahn's for making an old man a post captain for fifty years and an executive officer at Endor. When Zahnites say that "the intent was blah blah blah" - what they really mean is that they really enjoyed reading their first mainstream EU book back in the early '90's, and do not like errors, Zahn's or otherwise, contradicting those feelings - even if there are objective mistakes.

[Vympel]

Still, its NOTHING as bad as the post Battle of Yavin timeline. Where as once I assumed the Rebels evacuated the base promptly and skipped around the Galaxy for a short time, probably dispersing most of the Yavin group to various cells, before reestablishing the HQ on Hoth...

This is why I agree with Randy Stradley on the following point:-

For my own part, I don't give a rat's a**, uh, er, a flying f***, well, I mean, I can't really get very excited about maintaining a continuity that I feel is not only riddled with errors and contradictions, but also includes so many really silly (and I mean really, truly stupid and awful) stories (sorry, that's just my opinion).

Not necessarily. I just think that stories which don’t fit the “facts”-- either because the facts have changed with the release of the Prequel Trilogy, or because they just never made much sense in relation to the reality portrayed in the films -- should be jettisoned. However, before the fanboys start jumping, let me quickly point out that what I want has nothing whatsoever with how LF deals with its continuity.

I’m a firm believer of not mentioning inconvenient events or “facts” from the EU. Not contradicting them, but just not letting them interfere with the telling of a good story. For instance, I have no problem with fans wanting to believe that a species of big green bunny rabbits exists in the same galaxy as Luke, Leia, and the others, but I don’t have to allow them in our comics.

Exhibit A is, IMO, the continued irrational hard-on the continuity masters have for trying to shoe-horn the events at the end of Splinter of the Mind's Eye into the continuity (repeated recently in some Darth Vader book for kids)- you know, Luke fighting Vader in a lightsaber duel prior to Bespin and winning.

It didn't happen, there's no way it could've ever happened, and it's a fucking stupid thing to try and rationalize as having happened.

[Crown]

<snip>

Kinda sad you haven't outgrown your irrational hatred of Zahn.

[thejester]

I don't understand how Pellaeon's order could have been illegal but obeyed. Surely if he had indeed bypassed every other captain in the chain of command, they could and should have simply ignored the order.

[Illuminatus Primus]

<snip>

Kinda sad you haven't outgrown your irrational hatred of Zahn.

Kinda sad that you have nothing to add of substance. The Thrawn Trilogy is fine, and actually, I commend Zahn for not going to Traviss route when authors took material he invented and taking it in different directions but adapting and being a high note of recent EU.

Still, on the issue of Pelleaon, the evaluations not in his favor originate with things Zahn originally penned about him. Blaming other authors is just wishful thinking.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I don't understand how Pellaeon's order could have been illegal but obeyed. Surely if he had indeed bypassed every other captain in the chain of command, they could and should have simply ignored the order.

Ever heard of a coup? Military men take orders sometimes which are illegal or unwise. That doesn't mean they don't happen.

[thejester]

I don't understand how Pellaeon's order could have been illegal but obeyed. Surely if he had indeed bypassed every other captain in the chain of command, they could and should have simply ignored the order.

Ever heard of a coup? Military men take orders sometimes which are illegal or unwise. That doesn't mean they don't happen.

But by extension doesn't that mean every other captain at Endor was guilty of dereliction of duty by obeying that order? I dunno, I just think it suggests Pellaeon's order might have had more legality than we're seeing...but in the absence of evidence, it remains illegal.

[Alexian Cale]

Frankly, since GR is on my side here and that 'not conceeding' is against the rules and conceeding with provisos or backhanded claims of victory ISN'T A REAL CONCESSION, you fucking lose. As Batman says, he clearly HASN'T conceeded, since he's still arguing the point!

Nope. I have conceded to Publius's findings that Pellaeon is a lackluster politician, but an experienced leader with political cunning. Try to keep up.

Amusingly Alexian Cale is being a complete fuckstool about this, and insulting a moderator for doing his job. This is great stuff, and *is* against the rules.

Fuckstool? How witty. But I guess it's better than being a fuckcouch or a fuckwashingmachine or a fuckdoor. And, since reading comprehension isn't one of your closest friends, I'll clarify: my sarcastic response to Ghost Rider is because, instead of electing to be a polite-but-firm administrator (or, hell, even just firm), he chooses to be a complete asshole about the situation, cramming in expletives and profanities after every other word in order to make himself appear intimidating. He failed. He can impose on me any punishment that he chooses, it's his right, but he's the next in a long line of moderators on the internet who think that they're fucking Gregory House.

It bothers me he can't even be bothered revealing the context to a quote he provided. But of course, he 'conceeded' to Publius but continues to argue with everyone else! This is hilarious.

No, what's hilarious is that you speak as though you're some beacon of reason, a master logician. I've already revealed the context, but your head is so far up GR's ass that you've apparently been too busy to look. But since you apparently have literacy issues:

WTF?

I specifically stated that I lacked the "patience, focus, time, and ability" to successfully argue the point, offered to agree to disagree, and state my final piece. As far as the context of the situation, Wedge Antilles made the above quoted statement to Captain Cel, during the last stages of the Yuuzhan Vong war, after she questioned him about his participation in the campaign against Grand Admiral Thrawn.

...I'd ask you to pay closer attention, but that would make it hard for you to look like a total moron, which is your apparent role here.

[Ghost Rider]

Ok, bitch tits. I did my job because all you were, until Publius crammed it down your fucking throat, was to go "But my view has a point disregard everything else!"

Now, you want to tread into territory of banning because you didn't like I called you a fucking idiot? You haven't concede anything except one half snide remark that Publius outwitted your dumbass.

And understand this bitchtits...we do ban people because they think "Oh mod is being snippy.". I am getting on your fucking ass because you are fucking employing both a goddamn golden mean AND broken record fallacies. Or don't you understand the reason I am am beating on you?

And finally you have a problem with my moderating, you take it to a goddamn higher fucking authority and not play your pathetic little whine attempt. There is a reason of the whole structure here, and why fucksticks like you get banned for thinking you are above the rules.

[Stark]

Nope. I have conceded to Publius's findings that Pellaeon is a lackluster politician, but an experienced leader with political cunning. Try to keep up.

You mean a lackluster combat commander, right? I mean, since that's the whole point. If you're maintaining that he's a brilliant leader of men who wins off-camera, then you're not actually conceeding at all.

Fuckstool? How witty. But I guess it's better than being a fuckcouch or a fuckwashingmachine or a fuckdoor. And, since reading comprehension isn't one of your closest friends, I'll clarify: my sarcastic response to Ghost Rider is because, instead of electing to be a polite-but-firm administrator (or, hell, even just firm), he chooses to be a complete asshole about the situation, cramming in expletives and profanities after every other word in order to make himself appear intimidating. He failed. He can impose on me any punishment that he chooses, it's his right, but he's the next in a long line of moderators on the internet who think that they're fucking Gregory House.

You know the rules. Your wounded pride is irrelevant. The fact that you've amusingly ignored everyone but the unfailingly polite Publius doesn't help you.

No, what's hilarious is that you speak as though you're some beacon of reason, a master logician. I've already revealed the context, but your head is so far up GR's ass that you've apparently been too busy to look. But since you apparently have literacy issues:

WTF?

I specifically stated that I lacked the "patience, focus, time, and ability" to successfully argue the point, offered to agree to disagree, and state my final piece. As far as the context of the situation, Wedge Antilles made the above quoted statement to Captain Cel, during the last stages of the Yuuzhan Vong war, after she questioned him about his participation in the campaign against Grand Admiral Thrawn.

...I'd ask you to pay closer attention, but that would make it hard for you to look like a total moron, which is your apparent role here.

There's nothing better than people declaring they're winning. Course, your quote doesn't actually give me context at all: was this before or after Pellaeon had become a Y-V war hero? Do you perhaps think this is relevant? Since it's your only actual quote of actual evidence, and it's probably someone talking about someone who is now a war hero, I'm thinking that could be important.

Oh, but you don't like my tone. Shame that's against the rules! Of course, now that he's melted down and driving down the Ban Highway, he figures he'll go out with a bang.

Why do people melt down? Sure, Cale's being a cocksnap here, but he's been pretty useful elsewhere. Somewhere in his brain he's decided insulting moderators and all the rest is a good idea, when it obviously isn't

That's clearly why he's smarter than me.

[Alexian Cale]

Ok, bitch tits.

LOL. Now, that one was funny.

I did my job because all you were, until Publius crammed it down your fucking throat, was to go "But my view has a point disregard everything else!"

Publius didn't cram it down my throat at all. He was actually very patient and reserved, not resorting to your less-than-hospitable tactics. When I reflectively thought about it, I conceded to Publius, as he pointed out that Pellaeon was an "inept tactition" -- not an inept man -- which was my ultimate point all along.

Now, you want to tread into territory of banning because you didn't like I called you a fucking idiot? You haven't concede anything except one half snide remark that Publius outwitted your dumbass.

I see that your status as a moderator has equipped you with special mind-reading powers. I'm afraid to tell you, sir, they're fallible. My remark to Publius is anything but snide; it was sincere. I very much respect Publius and his opinions, moreso than most (if not all, here). I am not snide with those who are not snide with me; he wasn't and neither was I. So, essentially, Publius actually proved part of my theory right, but just clarified that Pellaeon is a lackluster tactition -- which I conceded.

And understand this bitchtits...we do ban people because they think "Oh mod is being snippy.". I am getting on your fucking ass because you are fucking employing both a goddamn golden mean AND broken record fallacies. Or don't you understand the reason I am am beating on you?

Sir, I have already told you, multiple times, that you are well within your rights to ban me. You're the moderator, I'm the "dumbass". What you fail to do, however, is to cow me with your vulgarity and attempted intimidation.

And finally you have a problem with my moderating, you take it to a goddamn higher fucking authority and not play your pathetic little whine attempt. There is a reason of the whole structure here, and why fucksticks like you get banned for thinking you are above the rules.

Assuming you don't ban me (which you're well within your rights to do), how about I stop the whining attempt if you stop the intimidation attempt? Clearly, neither one is working. As for going to a higher authority, I'm used to the methodology of taking it to the source, pointing out what I see to be a problem, and hopefully working to a result. I have no intention to tattle to a higher authority (even assuming my account survives this), because it's not that annoying. As for me being above the rules, I don't know where you've drawn that particular conclusion, but I can see that your telepathy is leaving something to be desired.

And the correct term is "fuckstool", sir. Though "bitchtits" is one I rather like. Mind if I borrow it?

[Batman]

Nope. I have conceded to Publius's findings that Pellaeon is a lackluster politician, but an experienced leader with political cunning. Try to keep up.

Which is mutually exclusive and irrelevant to boot. The point was Paelleon's 'military' competence. Which, much as I adore Zahn, doesn't exist.

Amusingly Alexian Cale is being a complete fuckstool about this, and insulting a moderator for doing his job. This is great stuff, and *is* against the rules.

Fuckstool? SNIPPY garbage

Newsflash: Around here, a Mod is perfectly within his rights to treat you that way.Especially as EVERYBODY is unless Board Rules have been tamed down while I wasn't looking.

[Alexian Cale]

You mean a lackluster combat commander, right? I mean, since that's the whole point. If you're maintaining that he's a brilliant leader of men who wins off-camera, then you're not actually conceeding at all.

Once again, perhaps your attention could be a bit more focused? Read what Publius said on the matter: it's what I conceded to.

You know the rules. Your wounded pride is irrelevant. The fact that you've amusingly ignored everyone but the unfailingly polite Publius doesn't help you.

Publius managed to highlight the opposition's perspective in a more polite version, yes. But also more sensible. It's why I concede to him, but if you're upset that I didn't concede to you, well... perhaps I'm not the only one with a "wounded pride".

There's nothing better than people declaring they're winning.

Yes, because I've clearly done that. I have a question: can you be bothered to point out where I have declared that I am winning? You'd think that the frequent concessions and admissions that I was unable to "successfully argue" my point would be a declaration that I am not winning, but -- as we've seen -- you and reading comprehension clearly aren't playmates.

Course, your quote doesn't actually give me context at all: was this before or after Pellaeon had become a Y-V war hero? Do you perhaps think this is relevant? Since it's your only actual quote of actual evidence, and it's probably someone talking about someone who is now a war hero, I'm thinking that could be important.

An "inept man" becoming a "war hero"? I rather doubt it.

In all seriousness, the quote was provided in the second to last book in the series. Pellaeon had already defeated the Vong on a handful of occasions, if that's what you mean. Of course, being a dumb ass, I fail to see how that would change Wedge's personal opinion -- unless this led him to believe that Pellaeon wasn't totally inept.

Oh, but you don't like my tone. Shame that's against the rules! Of course, now that he's melted down and driving down the Ban Highway, he figures he'll go out with a bang.

Tone? Not at all. Ghost Rider is the only person whose tone is something that I have had a problem with; not that it matters anymore. I have no issue with you, other than the simple fact that you're being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, and apparently embarrassing yourself when it comes to discussion of rules...

Why do people melt down? Sure, Cale's being a cocksnap here, but he's been pretty useful elsewhere. Somewhere in his brain he's decided insulting moderators and all the rest is a good idea, when it obviously isn't

Insulting moderators? Ah, yes, the "asshole" I called him. Once. You're right. The big, mean Cale is harrassing the kind, noble moderator for no damn reason. Storytelling at SD.net must be fun.

That's clearly why he's smarter than me.

I never claimed that. One assumes that you're a highly intelligent individual who has just been caught up in the moment and neglected to pay attention to the whole argument.

[Alexian Cale]

Which is mutually exclusive and irrelevant to boot. The point was Paelleon's 'military' competence. Which, much as I adore Zahn, doesn't exist.

I am no longer arguing that Pellaeon possesses any real military competence; in fact, outsides of repeatedly offering to answer the question of context for Mr. Stark, it's no longer something I even toy with. Publius's conclusions make more sense than the shit I was dreaming, because you're right, Mr. Zahn and the EU haven't provided concrete evidence for any brilliance of Pellaeon's, militarily.

By the way, have you read Allegiance?

Newsflash: Around here, a Mod is perfectly within his rights to treat you that way.Especially as EVERYBODY is unless Board Rules have been tamed down while I wasn't looking.

I'm afraid, then (assuming I survive this (unlikely)), we'll be fundamentally opposed idealogically. I'm a sarcastic prick in real life, but rarely do I commit ad hominem or blatant verbal attacks unless the person thoroughly deserves it. That GR and a few others see fit to attack me for so little implies a distinct lack of patience, among other things.

[Stark]

Once again, perhaps your attention could be a bit more focused? Read what Publius said on the matter: it's what I conceded to.

You mean the part where he said a) his career isn't inconsistent, b) you can't dismiss evidence you don't like and c) he's not a good commander and that doesn't stop him holding high office due to other skills? You'll have to highlight the exact sentence you're 'conceeding to' I guess, since his post pretty clearly attacks your entire attitude towards 'off camera successes'. But I notice you NOW say you ARE conceeding he isn't competent, so you spun this shit just to piss me off! Awww, someone doesn't like me!

Publius managed to highlight the opposition's perspective in a more polite version, yes. But also more sensible. It's why I concede to him, but if you're upset that I didn't concede to you, well... perhaps I'm not the only one with a "wounded pride".

LOL! You can't 'conceed to' a person. You conceed an argument by admitting you're wrong and not arguing it anymore. You have apparently conceeded some tiny aspect of your argument to one particular person.

Yes, because I've clearly done that. I have a question: can you be bothered to point out where I have declared that I am winning? You'd think that the frequent concessions and admissions that I was unable to "successfully argue" my point would be a declaration that I am not winning, but -- as we've seen -- you and reading comprehension clearly aren't playmates.

Oh sorry, because you didn't use the actual words you're all good. You should totally insult me some more - eventually I might start whinging about it the way you do!

An "inept man" becoming a "war hero"? I rather doubt it.

In all seriousness, the quote was provided in the second to last book in the series. Pellaeon had already defeated the Vong on a handful of occasions, if that's what you mean. Of course, being a dumb ass, I fail to see how that would change Wedge's personal opinion -- unless this led him to believe that Pellaeon wasn't totally inept.

It's like getting blood from a stone. Someone earlier mentioned his successes in the Y-V war (particularly, directed a victory from a bacta tank), and these famous successes against the galactic threat that schooled a bunch of other people just MIGHT concievably change people's view of Pellaeon and allow them to look back on his failings in a positive light. This is why dialogue is worthless evidence.

Tone? Not at all. Ghost Rider is the only person whose tone is something that I have had a problem with; not that it matters anymore. I have no issue with you, other than the simple fact that you're being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, and apparently embarrassing yourself when it comes to discussion of rules...

Frankly, I find nothing embarassing about admitting I'm wrong or can't find supporting evidence. Of course, while it isn't an explicit rule it IS in fact a policy, so I wasn't actually wrong at all. I can just back down from positions I can't defend.

Insulting moderators? Ah, yes, the "asshole" I called him. Once. You're right. The big, mean Cale is harrassing the kind, noble moderator for no damn reason. Storytelling at SD.net must be fun.

What? You're on Mars. Parodying a moderator for doing his job is a dumb fucking idea. You know the rules - and he even told you - and if you've got a problem, take it up with his bosses.

I never claimed that. One assumes that you're a highly intelligent individual who has just been caught up in the moment and neglected to pay attention to the whole argument.

I see the 'backhanded' switch is broken in the 'on' position. This is hilarious.

Seriously, why are you being such a dumbass over such a small issue? You've been involved in debates over far more disputable and larger issues, but you've gone completely 'ban me plz' over this.

[Batman]

By the way, have you read Allegiance?

Probably not.

Newsflash: Around here, a Mod is perfectly within his rights to treat you that way.Especially as EVERYBODY is unless Board Rules have been tamed down while I wasn't looking.

I'm afraid, then (assuming I survive this (unlikely)), we'll be fundamentally opposed idealogically. I'm a sarcastic prick in real life, but rarely do I commit ad hominem or blatant verbal attacks unless the person thoroughly deserves it

You DO thoroughly deserve it.

That GR and a few others see fit to attack me for so little implies a distinct lack of patience, among other things.

Tough luck.

[Alexian Cale]

Since, it seems, that you're being genuine rather than argumentative, I'll stop.

Seriously, why are you being such a dumbass over such a small issue? You've been involved in debates over far more disputable and larger issues, but you've gone completely 'ban me plz' over this.

I'm a (not-so-secret) egotist by nature. I am highly offended when I receive harsh verbal remarks against my person for a "small issue", no matter who is dealing them out (this includes a moderator). I possess a tremendous affection for my own intelligence, and while far from perfect or even equal to the ladies and gentlemen here, I think it's completely asinine to stamp me as a total moron for apparently getting one wrong.

What would you have me do, Mr. Stark?


Edit: I've already broken enough rules to likely ensure my ban, and I'd prefer to not allow the melodrama to further hijack this thread. PMs will be fine.

[Stark]

But nobody will do that. As you've doubtless noticed from my sub-par debating performance, I've been schooled on issues myself in the past. People here don't really care: I've had run-ins with most of the more ornery moderators too. It's no big deal to just be wrong and move on - I'd usually suggest checking sources and cooking up a solid argument, but doing that vs Publius's legendary research would be a difficult task.

What *will* get the vultures circling and the banpoll up in the Senate is being a jackass to moderators. So just stop.

Outside of debate there's no issue with having 'unproven' or 'unsupported' views - hell I dismiss all of the EU because it sucks - but if you bring them up in debate you have to support them.

[Ghost Rider]

I will say this very clearly and in little words so you understand, Cale.

You broke rules in debating.

You made logical fallacies and presented things you could not back up.

You acted no different then a retard spewing he's right by virtue of his words back him up.

I gave you a warning, you told me off when I was doing my job as moderator.

All of the above does lead to banning, very swift and without warning.

Consider this advice when the next time you think a moderator is fucking around.

[Tiriol]

We always hear about master strategists and genius tacticians. Perhaps it's time for logistical wizards to get more credit. And then the other branches of military discipline, whatever they may be.

This author will readily concede that Corporal Daala has been shown by evidence to be a master logistician and administrator, demonstrated by her success in reorganizing the holdings and war economies of the ci-devant rogue warlords she'd murdered in Darksaber. Furthermore, he readily grants that a man of Pellaeon's experience and character is no doubt a fine taskmaster (borne out by the Chimaera's reputation as a tightly-run ship in Tatooine Ghost, and very likely the reason for his apparent selection as GADM Thrawn's captain of the fleet). The problem is that they routinely strayed from their areas of competence into battle, where they were generally incompetent.

Happily enough for you, Mr. Publius, Daala would have been unable to achieve her logistical and administrative success without outside help (curiously, Vice Admiral Pellaeon). The two discussed during the events of the Darksaber Crisis how Daala felt bored and indifferent (even hostile) to the many administrative duties she had gathered, especially to the fine details, something Pellaeon had to bring to her attention. Daala apparently possessed the ferocity and aggressiveness to take on the warlords themselves and the charisma and oratory ability to hearten the leftovers of the Imperial war machine, but otherwise Pellaeon had to remind his Supreme Commander of the necessities of logistics. This, in turn, supports Pellaeon as a man of administration rather than a master tactician.

Pellaeon apparently had learned a great deal about tactics, though, by the time he fully started to command the Remnant forces. He bested Admiral Ackbar in a naval battle (depending on the source, either against greater forces or against equally-sized task force) before the peace treaty between the Remnant and the New Republic (and according to New Essential Chronology, there were many other victories as well); and later he succesfully commanded several battles against the Yuuzhan Vong. His tactical skills had improved, but we do not know whether he scored many of those victories by being the Supreme Commander (and thus being the strategist rather than the tactician) or be personally engaging the enemy similar in style to his beloved Grand Admiral Thrawn. I'm more inclined to think that Pellaeon would rather act as a strategist most of the time, given the evidence.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Another important point is that, he may have eventually in his old age developed the skill sets, but it does not improve his relative standing if men so much younger than he, with such less experience were his equals yet. A 15 year old who can read at a 7-year-old's level is not acclaimed for having finally achieved equality; he is still inferior relatively to his younger counterparts if equal in absolute terms. True genius can get a lot done in a brief time.