Download Illegally? Lose your internet.

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Download Illegally? Lose your internet.

Post by Zac Naloen »

link



People who illegally download films and music will be cut off from the internet under new legislative proposals to be unveiled next week.

Internet service providers (ISPs) will be legally required to take action against users who access pirated material, The Times has learnt.

Users suspected of wrongly downloading films or music will receive a warning e-mail for the first offence, a suspension for the second infringement and the termination of their internet contract if caught a third time, under the most likely option to emerge from discussions about the new law.

Broadband companies who fail to enforce the “three-strikes” regime would be prosecuted and suspected customers’ details could be made available to the courts. The Government has yet to decide if information on offenders should be shared between ISPs.

Six million broadband users are estimated to download files illegally every year in this country in a practice that music and film companies claim is costing them billions of pounds in lost revenue annually.

Britain’s four biggest internet providers – BT, Tiscali, Orange and Virgin Media – have been in talks with Hollywood’s biggest studio and distribution companies for six months over a voluntary scheme.

Parallel negotiations between Britain’s music industry and individual internet providers have been dragging on for two years.

Major sticking points include who will arbitrate disputed allegations, for example when customers claim to have been the victim of “wi-fi piggybacking”, in which users link up to a paid-for wireless network that is not their own. Another outstanding disagreement is how many enforcements the internet companies will be expected to initiate and how quickly warning e-mails would be sent.

International action in the US and France, which is implementing its own “three-strikes” regime, has increased the pressure on British internet companies and stiffened the Government’s resolve.

Ministers will make an explicit commitment to legislate with the launch next week of a Green Paper on the creative industries. A draft copy, obtained by The Times, states: “We will move to legislate to require internet service providers to take action on illegal file-sharing.” A consultation paper setting out the options is promised within months.

A spokesman for the Internet Service Providers Association said it remained hopeful that agreement over a voluntary agreement could be reached: “Every right-thinking body knows that self-regulation is much the better option in these areas.”

Roz Groome, vice-president of antipiracy for NBC Universal, welcomed the prospect of new laws. “We welcome the signal from Government that it values the health of the creative industries and takes seriously the damage caused by widespread online copyright infringement. We call upon ISPs to take action now. They must play their part in the fight against online piracy and work with rights owners to ensure that ISPs’ customers do not use their services for illegal activity. Piracy stifles innovation and threatens the long term health of our industry.”

Ed Vaizey, the Shadow Arts Minister, said: “David Cameron called on the internet providers to address this issue last summer. The credibility of the Government’s latest threat is undermined by the fact that ministers have spent so many years dithering on whether to legislate.”

The commitment forms part of a Green Paper on the creative industries entitled The World’s Creative Hub to be launched by Andy Burnham, the Culture Secretary, and Gordon Brown next week.

Other high-profile elements include a pledge that children will be entitled to five hours of culture a week overseen by a new youth culture trust. The pledge will give children the right to learn a musical instrument, visit art galleries and museums and even make films.

Other pledges include setting up a new international conference modelled on Davos, entitled the World Creative Economy Forum, and supporting a new £200 million film centre at the South Bank in London. A spokeswoman for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport said: “Early drafts of our creative economy programme document were circulated to stakeholders for comment. The content and proposals for the strategy have been significantly developed since then and a comprehensive plan to bolster the UK’s creative industries will be published shortly. We will not comment on the content of the leaked document.”

Posting without comment for now.
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Post by Resinence »

Stark wrote:I hear p2p traffic encryption has been around for years? :)
What he said ^

Unless they are going to start arresting people for ANY and ALL p2p traffic, then they will only catch stupid people with this, and only until encryption starts being enabled by default in clients.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

Roz Groome, vice-president of antipiracy for NBC Universal, welcomed the prospect of new laws. “We welcome the signal from Government that it values the health of the creative industries and takes seriously the damage caused by widespread online copyright infringement. We call upon ISPs to take action now. They must play their part in the fight against online piracy and work with rights owners to ensure that ISPs’ customers do not use their services for illegal activity. Piracy stifles innovation and threatens the long term health of our industry.”
I do not condone illegal activity, but even under such laws, piracy will still take place. The biggest threat to the likes of EMI etc is the creative part of the creative industries to realise that they themselves are bussiness and act accordingly.
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Post by ray245 »

Hell, even some shops that sell illegal DVD and VCD are running out of options with the internet around.

After all, why do you need to pay for a shitty quality movie when you can watch it on the internet for free.

:roll:
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Post by Zac Naloen »

It's likely they'd use a company such as www.envisional.com to track it.

What it appears they do is download illegal files and then seed it, tracking who downloads what off of them.

The way round that particular trick would presumably be to use peerguardian.
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Post by Stark »

Dude, those guys are hilarious. They watch the darkest nooks and crannies of the 'deep internet'! FAR BEYOND THE REACH OF ORDINARY SEARCH ENGINES! Because, y'know, people using torrents don't just use google. No, they search the 'deep internet'. :)

Whatever their technical proficiency, they have an absolutely awesome marketing team.
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Post by Zac Naloen »

Stark wrote:Dude, those guys are hilarious. They watch the darkest nooks and crannies of the 'deep internet'! FAR BEYOND THE REACH OF ORDINARY SEARCH ENGINES! Because, y'know, people using torrents don't just use google. No, they search the 'deep internet'. :)

Whatever their technical proficiency, they have an absolutely awesome marketing team.
yeh we were having a good laugh at that in the office this afternoon.


The internet has it's seedy areas like every city don't you know?
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Post by Starglider »

ISPs that are proactive about enforcing this will lose revenue and customers to ISPs that are lax about enforcing it. Not hard to guess what will happen eh?

Actually I find the 'children will get five hours of Culture' a week. As if 'culture' was a vitamin you could manufacture and prescribe an RDA of.
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Post by Resinence »

Whats the bet that envisional's A3I is just a pathetic web crawler, they give basically no info on how it works except 'its rely rely smrt guyz', in fact, that whole site is like looking at one giant ad with no actual information. Amazing how much you can write without actually saying anything :P
Envisional's technology discovers more, because it monitors the whole Internet, way out beyond the World Wide Web.
WOW, their processing and bandwidth capabilities must be absolutely staggering :lol: It also says they monitor IRC servers, I think that the company's that run them would have something to say about that. And it would probably have "violation of terms of service" and possibly "unlawful monitoring of private communications" (unless you live in the land of the 'free' then its perfectly legal) somewhere.

This also brings up the thought of whether or not ISP's should be allowed to retain their general carrier status and the protections from lawsuits that entails. If they are directly monitoring the data that their users send and request they sure as hell are not passive anymore are they, doesn't that leave them open to privacy lawsuits?

I really, really, REALLY dislike the idea of legislation that forces internet service providers to monitor their customers data. They get payed to move data, thats it. And I would never vote for any government that tries to pass such legislation ever again. Ever. I wonder how people would react if they suddenly came out with legislation that forces all phone company's to have people listen to phone calls, JUST INCASE THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT CRIMES. Or what about the post office being forced to read your mail, YOU MIGHT BE MAILING ILLEGAL DVD'S!

Fucking wankers, hey lets shit all over peoples privacy to recoup profits that we probably never would have gotten in the first place.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

So ISPs have quantum computers fron sci-fi now?

Oh, wait. They don't.
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Post by Big Orange »

Roz Groome wrote: "Piracy stifles innovation and threatens the long term health of our industry.”
Or could it be the other way around with the self defeating copyright? I hope this new anti-piracy proposition for the UK will be stonwalled like that recent (thankfully failed) attempt to extend music copyright past half a century.
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Post by Nephtys »

It'll take a while for legislators to learn that the Internet isn't exactly something you can just legislate into your control. There are more clever and self-motivated people working against you than any company can deliver. While people are of split opinions about piracy (from my 'yarrr!' comrades, to those who dislike it, but understand it), nobody reasonable believes such harsh regulations are going to do much besides make people bitter.

Even if it passes, watch as it becomes completely unenforcable.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

This will have the side effect of eliminating all free wifi in the country it's implemented in, you know.
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Post by Darth Wong »

"Piracy stifles innovation and threatens the long term health of our industry.”
Funny how you can replace the word "Piracy" with "Software patents" so easily, and it works just as well, if not better.
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Post by PREDATOR490 »

This seems a bit stupid to me.
I have seen more than a few videos use the copyright blurb saying you cant play 'x' in public or away from home etc. Will they start going around schools telling teachers to expel students when they bring in legally bought tapes, music etc on 'fun days' or the like ?

How are they expected to actually know if someone is downloading illegal stuff without breaking someones privacy by looking at what they are downloading ?
Or is just being "suspected of wrongly downloading films or music" enough to get shafted ?
Are you supposed to mail them your harddrive to prove illegal stuff isnt on your computer or will these guys bust down your door when the ISPs fail to enforce this "regime" to their satisfaction

Overall, this sounds like:

Foolhardy stupidity
Unrealistic methods of enforcement
Creating a bunch off really pissed off people
Killing a great deal of customers in ISPs who comply

Your screwing over potentially legitimate users who use Youtube, Bebo etc
Oh no, where are all these lawsuits coming from
Unbelieveable amounts of faliure to grasp the scale of the effort required
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Post by General Zod »

PREDATOR490 wrote: How are they expected to actually know if someone is downloading illegal stuff without breaking someones privacy by looking at what they are downloading ?
At least as far as torrents are concerned, it's trivially easy to check the torrent in question and take note of all the IPs attached to it. As well as many other file sharing clients. IRC might be the one exception of this because it's somewhat more difficult to tell who is downloading what from whom without using some type of exploit or hacking software. Either way this is in no way going to help curb piracy in any significant meaning of the word.
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Post by Dartzap »

From what's being said, the leak was actually the Gov trying to get the music companies and ISP's to do it themselves who have for a while t just moaned about the piracy but never agreed to do anything. Unless they want the government to use a rather large blunt instrument, to whit, Legislation they need to all sit down in a room and actually organise how they want to deal with piracy (and they they apparently don't want to go down the sue-millions route of the RIAA, hooray)

That's what's hilariously being called the "positive view" :)
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Post by Gomu Niwatari »

Why it won't happen
The Times says “people who illegally download films and music will be cut off from the internet under new legislative proposals to be unveiled next week.” Actually, this story is complete balderdash. But the fact that this nutty proposal is getting anywhere at all illustrates how ignorant the powers that be are about downloading.

Let’s get a couple of things straight –

1. This proposal was a draft consultation green paper, defined as “a proposal without any commitment to action.” The government receives many of these on a daily basis. They are like junk mail at Number 10 Downing Street. The Prime Minister’s toilet paper is more important than most green papers, and both are usually filed in the same place.

2. This proposal is totally and completely unworkable in the real world. ISPs will not accept liability for the contents of packets (nor should they), and it would be impossible for them to open and check if every single download and upload was legal or not without the entire Internet grinding to halt. This isn’t in the best interests of the government, the ISPs or the voters. Banning customers and exposing yourself to billions in liability isn’t a good business strategy. Criminalizing six million citizens and inconveniencing the rest is not a vote winner.

3. It would be impossible to tell the difference between illegal downloading and legal activities such as downloading software patches, using torrents to share stuff legally, playing online video games, using VoIP, photo sharing, telecommuting, and many others. The resistance from the private sector would be as strong as it would from the general public.

4. The very idea of this goes against the ruling of the European Court, which says EU member states are not obligated to disclose personal information about suspected file sharers. It would also fly in the face of Article 10 of the European freedom of expression laws, which gives every European the “freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.”

5. WiFi piggybacking and encrypted packets make it impossible to tell who is downloading what in the first place. These techniques are only getting more sophisticated, while for the most part, the content industries collectively remain as dumb as a box of hair.

So in summary:

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Post by Ford Prefect »

Darth Wong wrote:
"Piracy stifles innovation and threatens the long term health of our industry.”
Funny how you can replace the word "Piracy" with "Software patents" so easily, and it works just as well, if not better.
I just don't understand how piracy stifles innovation of all things. If I hook up with Blackbeard and download some album of music, how exactly does this lead to a net loss in innovation and creativity in the industry? Would I be pirating bits of their souls as well? It's inane.
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Post by chitoryu12 »

What about watching a movie on YouTube? Someone put the entirety of 2004's Dawn of the Dead on his profile. Are they going to track the ISPs of the site's users to see what videos they watch to make sure they aren't using YouTube to watch whole movies without paying?
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Post by Netko »

Ford Prefect wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
"Piracy stifles innovation and threatens the long term health of our industry.”
Funny how you can replace the word "Piracy" with "Software patents" so easily, and it works just as well, if not better.
I just don't understand how piracy stifles innovation of all things. If I hook up with Blackbeard and download some album of music, how exactly does this lead to a net loss in innovation and creativity in the industry? Would I be pirating bits of their souls as well? It's inane.
Not that I agree with this insane proposal, but the theory is that you demotivate them from producing new music. Its not a wholly unrealistic argument - there has been a number of PC game makers that have come out recently stating that they are considering a more console-centric approach do to high pirating rates on the PC. Or even more explicitly, Sanctuary, the project starring Amanda Tapping and with lots of known sci-fi actors in guest roles that was supposed to be a direct-to-web and direct-buy from web project simply failed in that model since they did the right thing (not encoumbered their downloads with DRM) and the pay-to-download episodes simply got pirated to high heavens making the entire model uneconomical. In the end, not all was lost - the show got picked up by Sci-Fi and the first couple of episodes will be reworked versions of the webisodes, but it is a perfect example of how piracy truly can be determental to exactly the kind of innovative, fair web-based models that a lot of the pirates claim is what they want.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Netko wrote: Or even more explicitly, Sanctuary, the project starring Amanda Tapping and with lots of known sci-fi actors in guest roles that was supposed to be a direct-to-web and direct-buy from web project simply failed in that model since they did the right thing (not encoumbered their downloads with DRM) and the pay-to-download episodes simply got pirated to high heavens making the entire model uneconomical. In the end, not all was lost - the show got picked up by Sci-Fi and the first couple of episodes will be reworked versions of the webisodes, but it is a perfect example of how piracy truly can be determental to exactly the kind of innovative, fair web-based models that a lot of the pirates claim is what they want.
That assumes that the people who pirated it would have paid for it if it wasn't available through any other method.
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Post by Darth Wong »

TheDarkling wrote:
Netko wrote: Or even more explicitly, Sanctuary, the project starring Amanda Tapping and with lots of known sci-fi actors in guest roles that was supposed to be a direct-to-web and direct-buy from web project simply failed in that model since they did the right thing (not encoumbered their downloads with DRM) and the pay-to-download episodes simply got pirated to high heavens making the entire model uneconomical. In the end, not all was lost - the show got picked up by Sci-Fi and the first couple of episodes will be reworked versions of the webisodes, but it is a perfect example of how piracy truly can be determental to exactly the kind of innovative, fair web-based models that a lot of the pirates claim is what they want.
That assumes that the people who pirated it would have paid for it if it wasn't available through any other method.
No, it only assumes that some of them would have paid for it. Let's be realistic here: if piracy were completely unfettered, it would virtually destroy incentive to spend money, pay salaries, and take financial risks to make productions. There do need to be penalties for piracy, but there also needs to be a more realistic reassessment of the way copyrights are enforced and defined, so that enforcement efforts do not cripple the entire computer industry or lead to government sanctioned legal terror tactics directed against the general population.

In other words, keep copyright but limit its terms (no more lifetime copyright), force copyright holders to respect "fair use" exemptions, and find some way to ensure that people accused of non-commercial copyright violations get due process rather than being steamrolled by legal bullying.
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Post by General Zod »

chitoryu12 wrote:What about watching a movie on YouTube? Someone put the entirety of 2004's Dawn of the Dead on his profile. Are they going to track the ISPs of the site's users to see what videos they watch to make sure they aren't using YouTube to watch whole movies without paying?
They'd simply have Youtube remove it. They're not too concerned about someone uploading chunks of a barely watchable movie to a streaming site as they are people uploading entire movies at DVD quality that anyone with broadband can download and burn to a disc.
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